Feds killing to many coyotes

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I know alot of ranchers in this area. Most all of them have shut off access to hunt on the land they own. Most all of them will tell you that it is not because of the non residents. They say the non resident will bend over backwards for them to have a place to hunt. They say the worst as far as respect for the land that is private are thier friends and second the locals. The things I see happening on public land I dont blame the land owners.


As far as killing coyotes I have heard all of the same things from the ranchers as posted here. They have the trappers come in and they have the land flown. I still can kill coyotes on thier land. No one is really going to like this but you should see the face of the ranchers when I start asking for permission starting from now till big game season to hunt coyotes. They say "well there hides arent no good this time of year." I tell them now I am not hunting for hides I am hunting to kill coyotes. They get an evil grin because they have all been through problems caused by coyotes. I get more and more calls from ranchers each year letting me know where the coyotes are and places they have found dens. I am not an ADC person but now some of them expect me to help control the coyote populations. I have established some good relationships with the ranchers.
 
All right I’ll play, I understand the need for air gunning I really do, but it’s more of the timing for me. I don’t see the need to come in December and January and wipe us out, are there calves being born, or deer fawning? It would make more sense to air gun in February or March when hunting gets tuff and there is actually cows calving.

What is our population per square mile anyway and what is yours, maybe you need it more, maybe we need it less? Who is paying for all the air gunning anyway, tax payers, ranchers, who? I don’t think is very cheap to fly a helicopter all over Utah every day doing what they do and yes I have had them fly over me when I have been out on a stand.

Around here it is taxes and BLM controlling the grazing ground and rights that killing the rancher, less grazing more hay the rancher has to buy or grow. I think that is killing the ranchers more than the coyote.

Like I said before I understand and actually believe there is a need for air gunning, I think it is just being mismanaged, just my .2 cents.
 
Rockinbbar- I am not sure how to answer your question about the landowner. I know you are not here to argue and neither am I. I took yours as just comments and mean mine the same way.

I have a lot of respect for landowners/ranchers and understand their position. I do a lot of Beaver removal for the DWR here on a voluntary basis and I have had a lot of access to private land. Because of my respect and the job I have done for the land owners I have gained access for my other trapping and hunting.

The comments I made about the different hunters were just to point out that everyone is going to look at it different based upon their preference of animals to hunt. I wish there was an easy answer. If there is, I sure dont have it.

I prefer predator hunting over anything else and wish I could kill more of them. Will the fact that they are hard to find at times stop me. No it wont. I will still be out there because I love to get out. The bottom line is that hunting is about getting out and not necessarily the kill. Although it does help pay for the fuel bill.
 
I know what you meant, and I took it that way myself.
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I was just playing devil's advocate about bringing up some of the things we know would have a domino effect.

The solution sometimes seems easy, but once the grass roots are exposed, it can really open a can of worms.
 
Every year we go out and 'locate' near den sites that WE are aware of. The year before last we located 'yote on about 70 % of the den sites we knew about, but hardly any pups that summer, last year? less than 50%, but, quite a few pups in the mix during the summer, this year? we are at 120% on those same den sites. We check 12 locations. It looks to be(possibly) a banner year(IMO) here - unless my F&WS hunters get 'em all.. Not likely......

Talked with their supervisor the other day and he pointed me in a direction that is receiving little attention from his staff AND the local callers. Big enough area that we won't be bothered by anyone should we decide to hit it..

I think we will wait until mid-May as most of the pups will be able to self sustain and the older ones a little more receptive to calling. We will be after them for sure.......
 
Originally Posted By: AspenassassinPlease come to Utah. I was out last week and seen more Coyote tracks than deer. I would support a program like this in Utah.

What part of Utah you from? That is the first time I have ever heard that.
 
5yrs ago I tried trapping between Ten Sleep and Worland, only coyote I saw was in another guys trap. The rancher lied to me, said no one traps near there. I found out there is a good gov trapper there, or was one. I didn't like that area, I refer to it as the rectum of the world. I much prefer Carbon county up to Sheridan county.
I moved my traps up by Shell, WY and caught a few coyotes and a nice tom, second trapping trip out of 10 that I lost money on.
First yr out there the largest sheep ranch in WY lost 10% of their lambs to coyotes, they had 8,000 ewes. At 100$ a lamb I figured they lost 100,000$ to the coyotes that yr.
Within 1-2 yrs they went to all cattle, the family had 4 ranches, one had sheep, rest were cattle, no more sheep, from then on. I don't blaim them for using the plane, in the right conditions it is a good tool. The area I trapped the most they killed them all yr round, before the big funds came in. I usually only caught 20-24 in 2-3 weeks of trapping. If I had went to a better area, I would have caught more, but would not have had good people to work for and a place to stay and he gave me 30$ a coyote. I didn't know how good I had it. They eventually hired a private trapper fulltime and dropped out of the fed program, that guy is good at his job, but he took all my permission.
Now if I could make another trip I would have to go to a new area, again, and it doesn't look good, due to high trapping pressure, and lack of private ground to trap. Outfitters control most of the private ground, and you pay or stay out, I hear.
 
Originally Posted By: rockinbbar

The rancher maintains the ranch under the quidelines of BLM with regaurds to water & fences, roads, etc. It's HIS ranch. Nobody can take that away from him. Even the BLM part. He even has to pay the BLM for the land he uses that isn't his personal deeded land.



Excuse me!! The rancher maintains the BLM lands for the PRIVILEDGE of using it for his commercial operation. The "BLM Lands" do not belong to the leasee/rancher in any way, shape or form. Lets rephrase BLM and call it what it is "Federal Lands" that BELONG to the American Public and is reserved for multiple use by the public. Grazing livestock is but one use. Multiple use law states the use of one cannot intentionally infringe upon anothers right of use.

County predator control boards conducting aerial gunning on public Federal lands should not be allowed. In fact if you look real close at the regulations, county predator control boards are technically restricted to private deeded and state lands by invitation only from the owner or state leasee. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife is supposed to address any problems on Federal Lands. So County Boards are in direct violation of federal law if they are conducting aerial predator control on Federal Lands. Film them, turn them in and file a complaint.

County Predator Control Boards also practice Coyote denning on Federal Lands, where they locate a freshly dug out den by the female coyote. Kill the adults and dig out the den to kill all the newborn pups. Gotta tell ya I've been a sportsman for a long time and this is about the dirtiest low down thing a person could do. Pretty sleazy way to make a living. How would you like someone not agreeing with your instinct to survive or way of living come kick your door in and kill your children. You start messing with nature like this and it always comes back in some way to bite ya in the [beeep], ever heard of Karma.

Aerial gunning in the lower 48 is all but gone and is only legal in a hand full of states. Heavy pressure is on these remaing states to abolish it. Time to modernize, think outside the old fashioned box of dated solutions. If humans were half as cunning and adaptable as the coyote, mankind wouldn't have any problems

When the sage grouse comes under federal protection you can kiss your grazing lease as you know them now, goodbye. Major cause for their decline is certainely not predation. Livestock grazing, oil/gas & wind generator activity in the leke areas during breeding season is destroying the sage grouse.

I also don't wish to argue but it times to see things for what they are. The days of old are gone my friend. Your living in a day of synthetics, veggie burgers and pasta. Not to many people really care about wool, lamb chops or leather. The big corporations as in everything else are putting the mom & pop operations out of business. On the bright side your ranch is probably worth more now than it ever was. Sell out, buy a little scenic place somewhere, live in luxury and let someone else bang their heads over yotes and stinking livestock.
 
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Originally Posted By: DustballsI know alot of ranchers in this area. Most all of them have shut off access to hunt on the land they own. Most all of them will tell you that it is not because of the non residents. They say the non resident will bend over backwards for them to have a place to hunt. They say the worst as far as respect for the land that is private are thier friends and second the locals. The things I see happening on public land I dont blame the land owners.


I disagree...I too am a sportsman and lifelong resident of the west. There are bad apples in every crate whether it's labeled nonresident, resident, friends or locals.

Ranchers like uninformed Nonresidents because they are much more willing to open their wallet to the rancher. In some instances paying a rancher to hunt on public grounds that they didn't need permission to hunt.

I've seen many places where nonresidents have pulled up in their big RV's, camped for a week, drained their sewage, left their garbage and did anything but leave the area as they found it.
 


Originally Posted By: Wyocoyoter[Excuse me!! The rancher maintains the BLM lands for the priviledge of using it for his commercial operation. The "BLM Lands" do not belong to the leasee/rancher in any way, shape or form. Lets rephrase BLM and call it what it is Federal Lands that BELONG to the American public and is reserved for multiple use by the public. Grazing livestock is but one use. Multiple use law states the use of one cannot intentionally infringe upon anothers right of use.

I never said the "lands" belong to the rancher. But, the ranch does. Including the BLM permit. The U.S. Govt. taxes you on the entire value of ALL the land when you inherit a ranch that has BLM. So, that's about as close to "owning" it as you can get, without actually holding deed. There is a difference. They don't tax you because you and your dad hunted the same area of BLM, and when he passes, you don't get that BLM added to his estate as a hunting ranch. You also don't have to PAY to hunt on BLM like the rancher does for the usage he controls.

Originally Posted By: Wyocoyoter[I also don't wish to argue but it times to see things for what they are. The days of old are gone my friend. Your living in a day of synthetics, veggie burgers and pasta. Not to many people really care about wool, lamb chops or leather. The big corporations as in everything else are putting the mom & pop operations out of business. On the bright side your ranch is probably worth more now than it ever was. Sell out, buy a little scenic place somewhere, live in luxury and let someone else bang their heads over yotes and stinking livestock.

Veggie Burgers?
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I think you may be quite wrong about "nobody cares". YOU may not care about the ranchers. But, on the flip side, the BLM, USDA, rancher, tree huggers, and a plethora of other folks could care less if we go onto BLM and not call as many coyotes as we think we ought to.
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I frankly agree about it being a big pain to ranch. I don't agree with the "big corporation" theory though. The Govt. does a fine job of putting the ranchers out of business by allowing a flood of foreign beef, wool, cotton, or whatever to cross into the U.S. and dilute the market.
The vast majority of U.S. beef comes from small operations that take their calves to market and the beef is then mainstreamed into large feed operations and packers that place that beef on your supermarket shelf.

The other "Pain" about ranching BLM land is that if I were to buy a ranch that is vastly BLM....let's say 20,000 acres.....That ranch is valued at a certain amount. Say $200 per acre. (this is in the desert SW, such as Southern NM). Now I have to deal with the tree huggers that majored in some subject in college that got them a job with BLM, or Natl. Forest....I also have to deal with paying for the grazing each year, putting up with poachers, finding windmills shot to dollrags, gates left open and missing cattle, shot cattle, litter that would turn your stomach, and things like drug dealers.

Now, If I drove 30 miles to the South to Texas....Lands are private there. I spend the same $200 per acre for a ranch there that is the same size. I can run it how I want, don't have to pay for it but once, don't have to let some drunk idiot on there to ruin property, kill cattle, or deal drugs. Plus, the hunting rights belong to me, and I can choose who comes on the ranch to kill whatever animal. Can even lease the hunting rights.

So, you are right about the head banging when it comes to public land ranching. Everyone OUGHT to consider selling and going to private areas.
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I want to first say that this is a great site with lots of good information. I don't post often and usually prefer to just browse through information but I feel strongly about this topic. I have nothing against ranchers. I grew up on a ranch here in central wyoming. I believe they should have the right to operate on BLM land. I must say, however, that I concur with wyocoyoter. Nothing is more disapointing then ranchers that think that they own and or control BLM lands. I know people that have been confronted while hunting on public lands by landowners. The landowner way found to be in error in that case but it ruined a hunt and caused hard feeling. I also periodically see land posted "no trespass" that is, in fact, state or BLM. Ranchers lease BLM land for grazing rights. they do not own it and sportsman have just as much right to use the land as they do! BLM is not part of their ranch.
 
Actually, they can get into trouble if they post land that is public, or harrass hunters on said BLM.

In that case, I'm all for reporting the incident. Probably the best place is the G&F Dept. because in nearly all states, that is who administers the game laws.
 
Quote: County Predator Control Boards also practice Coyote denning on Federal Lands, where they locate a freshly dug out den by the female coyote. Kill the adults and dig out the den to kill all the newborn pups. Gotta tell ya I've been a sportsman for a long time and this is about the dirtiest low down thing a person could do. Pretty sleazy way to make a living. How would you like someone not agreeing with your instinct to survive or way of living come kick your door in and kill your children. You start messing with nature like this and it always comes back in some way to bite ya in the [beeep], ever heard of Karma.
Did ya copy and paste that off a PETA website? Which is worse, what you discribe or the guys that keep calling coyotes through the whelping season, but don't look for the dens to kill the pups quickly, instead leaving the to starve?
 
Not to big on PETA, but if coyote denning is something they are condeming then I would have to say there is common ground on that subject. I don't hunt yotes during the whelping season.

There is a line of extremes that we come to in most anything we do in life, whether it's ethics, morals, gut feelings etc. it defines a persons character whether or not they choose to cross that line. My gut feeling and something in my soul tells me denning coyote pups is crossing that line of which I choose not to cross and I feel good for making that choice.

Don't get me wrong, I've killed 100's of coyotes using numerous techniques and advantages. However I will not lower myself to the dark mentality that justifies denning newborn pups.

Rockinbbar, The Game & Fish or Sheriffs office could cite individuals or landowners for violating hunter harassment laws or posting state public lands. For Federal BLM lands the BLM Ranger has to do the citing. Game Wardens here refrain from citing people driving offroad on BLM lands unless it is part of a Game & Fish walkin program where motorized vehicles are prohibited. In other cases outside their programs they will take descriptions, coordinates, personal information and turn it over to the Ranger for possible action.
 
I too agree that I will not hunt coyotes during the denning season....
 
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Fair enough. I'm also in the camp of leavin'em be during whelping season, HOWEVER in your statement you placed predators and humans on the same level, something that PETA does to make "victims" of the animals, an effective way of pulling at the hearts and souls of all on-lookers. Also, I don't know how it is that you come to judge any man for doing the JOB that he is paid to do with removal of predators. It may not be a job that you'd want to do, obviously, BUT he's being paid to do it by someone and you can bet that who ever it is that is paying the bill wants the job completed.
I'd say a HOOKER is a better job that you could discribe as being "SLEEZY".
 
Originally Posted By: rockinbbar

The other "Pain" about ranching BLM land is that if I were to buy a ranch that is vastly BLM....let's say 20,000 acres.....That ranch is valued at a certain amount. Say $200 per acre. (this is in the desert SW, such as Southern NM). Now I have to deal with the tree huggers that majored in some subject in college that got them a job with BLM, or Natl. Forest....I also have to deal with paying for the grazing each year, putting up with poachers, finding windmills shot to dollrags, gates left open and missing cattle, shot cattle, litter that would turn your stomach, and things like drug dealers.



Rockinbbar,

You hit the nail directly on the head with this one, I agree with you 110%. The biggest pain is trying to deal with someone college smart and commen sense brain dead. People who graduated college back east and come out west for a job with zero pratical hands on experience and try to tell you how things are going to be. Every BLM office is full of them from the top down.
 
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