Feds killing to many coyotes

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An adult female coyote will have less of a litter in hard times.

Sometimes even killing coyotes by hunting can result in larger coyote populations due to excess foodsouces being avl. to those coyotes that remain.

I don't count letters in the dens. I counts the pups that make it out of the den.
 
I'm not convinced that they don't regulate litter size either.

For example deer: Deer populations regulate in somehwate the same way.
Does will have more buck fawns in dry years with less food avl.
In wet years with abundant forage, more fawns are born, and of the fawn population, the majority will be doe fawns...thus increasing the herd size to make up for losses during the hard times.
 
I'm gonna chime in here, I have a gov't hunter that lives 6miles up the canyon from me. He is a great guy, and kills lots of yotes, The number is irrelevant. He flys the ranches, and areas he is asked to fly. I dog, and call the same ranches. I kill 125 to 150 yotes year after year.If I go onto a ranch and can't "buy a yote" I might call him and ask when t was last flown. HE ALWAYS TELLS ME, AND THE NUMBER THEY KILLED.I just do my best, and realize they have a job to do also.
I run a ranch as a job,(how I feed my family, and pay my bills)7000 acres here, and we have 64,000 acres on the mountain. We run 2400 cow/calf pairs. All you guys that are cussin the ranchers,are the reason we would just as soon not have hunters on our ground.Anyone that doesn't undestand the importance of leaving open gates open, and closed gates closed, running water running , and off water off, does more damage than the yotes and cats.
I am right now finishing up a month of trying to find pairs that are spread for 50 miles, because deer and elk "hunters"(I USE THE TERM LOOSELY)Left every gate on my outfit open.Their negligence has cost my ranch 9000$ so far, and we don't have all our cattle back yet.(3 cowboys @100$ per day for 30 days).
For any of you whining about not gettin "access" how bout you give up 9000$ out of your bottom line so I can come to your "house"??? Any takers???
Not trying to be a dick, but you gotta understand what we deal with before you cuss ranchers as a whole.
ADC HAS A JOB TO DO, AND THEY DO IT WAY BETTER THAN SOME CHUCKLE HEAD FROM WHEREVER THAT KILS TEN YOTES A YEAR.(How would you like his job? 40,000 a year, on call 24 /7 never a day off, the phone rings you gotta jump,just to drive 100 miles to some ranch, and see where a cat killed a horse, or a yote killed a sheep.Then set traps,or turn out dogs.They work there a$$'s off. The benefit to everyone, not only the ranchers is more deer, elk,antelope, and game birds. Instead of whining about "no yotes" do some research, and be thankful every time you fill a tag.)
Just for the record, My outfit gets no Fed money, and no ADC help.We take care of our own yote and cat problems.
 
ROCKINBBAR TRAPPER2, and DUANE are dead on in their comments. There were others that were well stated as well.

Being a member for 4 years on the 'crapshoot bighorn county' ADMB board I can say that it is a necessary activity to support the livestock producers in keeping their outfits together for the sake of their families by reducing the predator base. I can also state that we have two fed. trappers working the coyotes AND one who traps the small predators as well. The 'yote guys have gotten between 850 and a 1,000 'yotes a year for the last three years and yet, there are still a large number of them still running around out there; just much smarter than those that were taken. Our small predator guy has taken between 550 and 1,200 skunks, raccons, fox and feral house cats per year for the last three and yet we can find those predators anytime we want. The upside is less lamb loss, less domestic fowl loss, less corn damage and less property damage. Does it affect my personal experience hunting 'yotes? Yes!! I now have to work harder at it. Our rabbit population downturn has stabalized, the deer population increase resulted in several hundred extra doe permits and we have, by far, some of the best pheasant and turkey populations ever. Disappointed with that? never...

Its a case of give and take.

As to those who can't close a gate, trespass to hunt, leave gut piles on the farm road and can't say thank you? I say its time to sell your fire arms and take up some other indoor sport.

ONE last comment. Those same trappers here in bighorn county also deal with the large predators such as mountain lions, bear, and wolves. In southern Bighorn county they stopped livestock predation on cattle and sheep this year that numbered well over a hundred. The result of ONE KNOWN and two UNKNOWN wolves. My hats off to the job they do and to the job they did.

We will keep it up as long as the money lasts. 2010 will be a challenge in that regard..............
 
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dogwhcker, remember when you told me that predator control in the basin was a conspiracy to boost wildlife #'s to feed wolves? You know, the secret operation to place wolves in places like 15 Mile, Gooseberry, the Peaks, etc.,...terrain and an ecosystem that was never conducive to wolf habitation. If I recall, it was also mentioned that you've 'called' in wolves waaaay out in the high desert, miles and miles away from where wolves are known to be. I've hunted this entire Basin pretty hard, and have yet to see an actual wolf or even sign out there. Wyo. Drifter and a few other locals on this thread hunt the area just as hard as I do, and have yet to report of a wolf.

What group do you represent on the Bighorn Co. pred board?

Duane@ssu, you stated something to the effect of "all of those whining about lack of access"...I've read through the entire thread and nobody here was whining, if I missed it, please point it out. One member by Shoshoni was lamenting local ranchers closing access because of apparent trespassing/shenanigans, but wasn't 'whining'. Easy to gloss over some of these long threads and mis-read, I've been guilty of that myself

What hunters can do to help out with the neighboring ranchers, regardless of private land or public leases, is to show respect.

-if it's private land,simply ask permission!

if it's public land, stay on the established roads, close gates, be a 3rd eye out there, notify the leaseholder or governing agency if you see any problems, such as vandalism, sick or dead livestock, off-roading, pick up trash,etc,. All of these claims of shot/rustled livestock, windmills turned off, gates left open...we all know that responsible hunters aren't guilty these things, but slobs are...I understand the frustration but, let's not loose track of that on a hunting forum. If it's public land, NEVER apologize for being there - and always FIGHT for legal access, but do help the other users. Isn't the motto of the Dept. of the Interior "land of many uses"? There are also rockhounds, arrowhead hunters, trailbikers, photographers, oil/mineral workers, etc., out there - they need to follow a code of ethics, too.

Again, be responsible out there, be respectful of the landowner/leaseholder, expect this of others and lend a helping hand, when you can. Quite a bit of the acess roads and water out there in the high desert was developed by ranchers, usually quite a bit if not the entire of amount of $$$ out there own pocket (there are exceptions). This water not only serves the livestock, but is also utilized by wildlife. This may sould a little cliche', but consider the opportunity to hunt a 'partnership' with landowners/leaseholders...be cognizant of other users out there that have every right to be there, also...even if it's a dreaded Easterner that had high hopes for a hunting trip out West
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I live here in the Basin, hunt as hard as I can...I also have a farming/ranching background, have been a public land leaseholder myself. If you're 'in the know', most of the ADC stuff is understandable, if you're not, then I can completely understand the confusion. A majority, but not all of the ADC work recently done in Wyoming makes perfect sense. Unless you have connections or know of the right people, it's hard to get a straight answer. Wyoming as 23 Counties, all but 6 have predator boards. Pred. board members are people, too...some have it together, some don't. The burden of knowing what is really going on is the burden of the inquirer...it shouldn't be that hard

I'm going to take a little bit of responsibity here. SM Snyder had PM'd in regards to hunting Bighorn County and the surrounding Basin before his trip...I basically gave him a quick, generic reply stating that alot of ADC work was being conducted in the area, and the the calling might be a little tough. In the spirit of being a fellow PM Member and predator hunter, I should of taken the time to provide him with credible contact information so he could make his own assessment. Yes, the burden was ultimately on SM Snyder, guess I could of put more effort in on the matter.
 
"WHINING" I guess is a "relative term".
The whole thread just ticked me off.
The good that came out of it was that we had an adult discusion,and got to see diff points of veiw.
Best wishes to all the ranchers, hunters and ADC guys.
 
WYO 'conspiracy' Never used that term. Increase the deer population Yes, I said that and it has worked. Introduce wolves into an environment not conducive to their liking - Could be the result of finding a good food source, migration, and less competition; they will introduce themselves, or, migrate through. Calling wolves way out in the high desert - IF you call the East end of YU bench way out there in the high desert, then, thats what it is. The good news is I had a partner with me when it happened 4 years ago and we were calling coyotes when it occured. Hasn't happened since. Glad you haven't found one - yet, but, you will. Representation on the board - sportsmen, in my last year of a 4 year stint(1 year, followed by 3).. No sportsman can serve more than 5 years - unlike the producers.

If I recall correctly I have urged you to run for the Park county ADMB board. Made any progress with that? I believe you would make a good member for them.....................

Oh, and keep hammering away at my credibility - your representing yourself quite well..
 
I am going to revive an old thread because I have been absent for a bit.

To the gentleman from PA who stated aerial gunning should be outlawed, I would strongly suggest you get yourself educated before making such a generalized statement. I would also suggest you never show up in eastern Montana with that attitude and ask a landowner to hunt ANYTHING. Unless you understand or at least take the time to try and understand the entire situation/circumstances, it is best to keep your yap closed.

To drhart, you imply, or I inferred from you post that it would be a good thing to have more coyotes. However, as someone who is actively involved in livestock production in Montana, I can assure you that the taxpayers out here do not share your viewpoint. Let's not lose sight of the fact that coyote-hunting is a recreational activity conducted by very few people whereas cattle and sheep production are large enterprises that feed many families, directly and indirectly, and provide a huge tax base. Yes it would be fun to have more dumb coyotes to call and shoot, but lets keep our priorities straight. Without a successful production ag sector, there will be dang little hunting, coyote or otherwise in the western U.S.

I can certainly relate to duane@ssu. I have worked on some very large ranches, have many friends who own small and large places and have many clients across the western US that that run on hundreds of thousands of acres total and the only thing worse that getting hammered by wildlife both prey species and predators is the pain in the butt aspect of sorry lazy people who, in the name of hunting, create more headaches than you can imagine.

Finally, don't anyone here think that coyotes are only a hindrance to sheep operations. Coyotes can create a large problem for cattle operations even if they don't kill anything. Coyotes simply harassing cattle can greatly decrease production even if they never take a calf.
 
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CMIDDLETON,

Cmon...Don't believe everything you read sir.

For one thing the Natrona County Predator Board has come under a lot of scrutiny. Not all landowners are pleased with their productivity or lack thereof.

The credibility and integrity of the board is seriously in question and claimed kills have been very suspect by area landowners and the public.

The acclaimed kill numbers are very suspect as there is no method of verification. No electronic verification, No physical verification as in tails, ears, fore legs etc. You are trusting the very people whose livlihood depends on high kill rates to provide you with the numbers. Including kill numbers for potential future litters pertaining to every female coyote killed isn't right. Wake up!

It is in the Boards best interest to pad the kill numbers showing a cost effective price per coyote. Their goal is to keep the price per coyote in the $100-200.00 range to show cost effectiveness. They will pull any unverified number out of the sky to achieve this goal. In this day and age of technology it is very easy to equip aircraft with electronic verification equipment for kills. Less than $150.00 each. Will they do it, NO because the public would then have a verified count and numbers couldn't be artificially inflated by the board members.

If the taxpaying public were provided with a more realistic price per coyote of $1000-2000.00 it isn't likely the predator board would ever be subsidized with taxpayer money again as the public wouldn't want to be subsidizing ranchers with that kind of welfare/support.

The biggest percentage of predator control money goes to sheep/cattle ranchers. These ranches are the least productive for deer and elk hunting and devastate the rangelands and sage grouse habitat. So where is that money benefitting big game, wildlife or hunters?, it isn't.

Many ranchers in other states and counties without predator control boards are doing fine.

 
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I was willin to "let sleeping dogs lie" but since this was brought back up, I'll share with you some stuff from the last few months.
Gov't hunters here locally killed 700+ yotes this year.
(According to them, granted) I can call the local "ADC",(If I think of it)They will tell me where they have flown.
I took 3 good dogs, and tried calling yotes in good ranch country. I couldn't buy a yote."?????????"
Not that I'm great, but this doesn't happen often.
I took a lion in a few days later to be taggged, and found out where I was hunting yotes, ADC, had flown a few days earlier.
I make about half my living guiding yote hunters, and training and selling dogs. I make the other half raising cattle, and growing hay.
I have more of a dog in this fight than any "recreational caller"
If a coyote stresses a heifer, it decreases weaning weight, or causes a still born calf, if a yote eats a calf, I LOOSE 500$ MINIMUM.Cattle get run thru fences, or are "worried", and won't go to water when yotes are around.
On the other side of the coin;
If there are no yotes , my clients aren't happy, and if there are no yotes, I can't train my dogs.
I appreciate what the "ADC" does, I can hunt other ground, and do my part to kill the ones that they can't.
My position is "instead of cussin ADC, work with them."
There is no way on Gods Green Earth, that recreational hunters can "control coyotes".
Ranchers, whether sheep or cattle, or any other livestock, put Millions of $'s into the economy.
Thats way more important than a guy having "sore feelers" becuase he went yote calling and didn't get anything done.
By the way, "ADC WAGES", are public knowledge. They aren't over paid for the "BS" they have to deal with.
 
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Originally Posted By: smsnyderWonder how much government hunters are getting paid to shoot coyotes from an airplane? I can see some coyote control but shooting them in areas there are no sheep don't make sense.

coyotes can be as nasty as wolves. They will try to eat the calf as the cow is having it. They will grab the calf as it is coming out of the cow. Also last year around here a sheep farmer lost 19 baby sheep in one night from the coyotes. And they do the same to deer and antelope. Coyotes need to be kept in check or we will all pay at the store counter.
 
There's some REALLY BAD information about WHO pays for the USDA to practice ADC work in your neighborhood.

Some of you guys make it sound like the tax money you pay for a diet coke goes to pay for the ADC work, or that your income tax happens to funding the guys that ruin your recreation...

WRONG!

The USDA has policies in effect that mandate that local taxes or organizations contribute to the expense of having their ranch as a target area for predators.

As with our local county, on ranches either private or BLM, the tax they pay on livestock is what funds that project. It always has, and has never gone into the general fund. On top of that the USDA has to have contributions from the Sheep and Goat Association, or the Woolgrowers Assn, or the Cattlemen's Assn. in order to do ADC work in a target area.

As with the Woolgrowers Assn locally, they decided to not give the funds they alotted each year to the USDA contract for depredation work. They thought that perhaps the County Livestock Taxes, and the Assn. funds would get a new position of County Trapper, and he would do a better job.

Well, that may have backfired. While they are now stuck with trying to get a county trapper, they have declined to participate in the USDA ADC program, and now they can NEVER go back. Use it or lose it so to speak.

It may not hurt to perhaps call the USDA in your area and see where the funds are coming from that fund ADC work in your area. I'll bet it doesn't come out your income tax refund check. It comes from Assn fees, and taxes paid on livestock BY RANCHERS.

So, the next time you can't call one up because they are flying that area, might try going to the RANCHER and whining about it. I'll bet you get educated real quick about where the funds come from.

BTW, we do our own ADC work. Always have. Still lose some calves, but I guess ranchers have lost calves for a pretty long time, and we do the best we can with controlling those losses.

So don't let petty things like someone's heritage & livelihood stop you from whing about something you probably don't know much about from the start.

The world revolves around your enjoyment for the day.

Deer and antelope hunters would stongly disagree with the statements whining about poor coyote calling.

If it were not for the ranchers paying the grazing fees,and maintaining water on govt lands, the TREE HUGGERS that are in charge of things with the USDA Forest Service, and BLM would just lock it ALL down as a "Wilderness Study Area", and not let YOU on there either. They don't LIKE you killing ANYTHING, or DRIVING ANYWHERE on ANY public land.

Might try and not trash ranchers. They help you have a place that has game and access to hunt it.

Here's an idea....Drive somewhere where they are not flying & trapping so much.

There's FAR more to think about than what may, or may not meet the eye in most cases.

These are my views only.
 
I'll play,(for awhile)
How close to sheep and cattle is it ok for the "ADC" to arial gun yotes????
I know that here, the ranchers have to pay into a fund, if they want to have yotes killed by plane on there ranch.
Problem is what if four ranchers pay, and one doesn't?
He get's the benefits for free.
Also coyotes will go where the feed is. If you can't gun more than two miles from "sheep", the yotes will just move into the sheep.
One more thing I've shot yotes out of a plane, and they get pretty wise to "safe ground" if they don't get killed the first,or second pass.
 
Duane and Rockinbbar. I can see your point as ranchers/landowners about ADC work and the job they do to help the ranchers. I also support ADC work but only on private ground. But from a hunting point of view I dont see the benefit on public ground for helping me. I also understand about the leaving gates open or closed. That and the trash being left on private ground is what has closed acccess to private ground here in Utah. The DWR is trying to help us gain access again with their walk in access program but I am afraid it will be shut down. I have seen paint balls being down on some of the ground and leaving their mess.

Originally Posted By: rockinbbar They help you have a place that has game and access to hunt it.

That may be true is some places. Private ground and hunting in Utah has become big money. Most of us dont get any benefit from it at all.

Originally Posted By: rockinbbarHere's an idea....Drive somewhere where they are not flying & trapping so much. Good advice but sometimes not real easy. My normal trip out is about 300 miles round trip until about November. That is when the sheep start getting put out where I hunt on public ground. After that my trips become about 400= miles round trip to get away from them and other hunters. I am not complaining about the distance. That is my choice to go that far to get away from people and it works.

What is the purpose here at Predator Masters. Aren't we trying to protect our rights, promote predator hunting and get the youth involved? How can you do that and support the ADC work being done on public ground when they are reducing the numbers of coyotes for people to hunt. As coyote hunters we spend a lot of money in the hunting industry just like the big game, upland game and waterfowl hunters. In fact I would like to see who is spending the most. As predator hunters we would also like to have better hunting like the big game hunters.

When we get an over abundance of big game animals in an area, does the DWR go in and kill them. No, they give more tags for the hunters to harvest them. I personally have pretty much given up big game hunting here in Utah. I would prefer to hunt predators, so you can see why I look at it the way I do. Is it whinning? I dont think so. I am looking out for my interest just like the rancher and big game hunter.

Everyone is going to look at it different. Predator hunters could say reduce the tags on the other hunts to create more food for coyotes to increase the numbers just like the other hunters say reduce the coyotes to increase big game and bird numbers. Who is right? It is hard to find a place in the middle that can be agreed upon.
 
The coyotes are getting ready to have pups soon and all coyote ranks will be replinished...LOL. Coyote populations are like dieting you lose a little for awhile and then you pack on the pounds double the size you were and the same with the coyote population.
 


Originally Posted By: reb8600What is the purpose here at Predator Masters. Aren't we trying to protect our rights, promote predator hunting and get the youth involved? How can you do that and support the ADC work being done on public ground when they are reducing the numbers of coyotes for people to hunt. As coyote hunters we spend a lot of money in the hunting industry just like the big game, upland game and waterfowl hunters. In fact I would like to see who is spending the most. As predator hunters we would also like to have better hunting like the big game hunters.

Of course that what our goals are, and always have been.

That said, a coyote is not a big game animal. Nor does anyone practice hunting them like they are a big game animal. Other organizations are geared toward conserving and increasing the populations of the game they hunt. They transplant animals into given hunting and reserve areas...Like quail, turkey, elk, deer...the list goes on. Coyotes are a far different situation. How can we get behind "conserving" coyotes? It just doesn't work that way. Look at the wolf situation, and all the controversy behind THAT subject. They are transplanting & trying to conserve wolves much to the dismay & chagrin of ALL sorts of groups...hunters and ranches actually band together in the realization that what they are doing is pure folly.

OK, now to ask you a question.

How would YOU handle the coyotes? Here's the scenario:

A rancher has a sheep or cow ranch that has been his family for generations. They have deed to that land. All of it except that which was homesteaded on perhaps a century or so ago. Even the BLM. They pay inheritance taxes on the value of the ENTIRE ranch, BLM or not. The rancher maintains the ranch under the quidelines of BLM with regaurds to water & fences, roads, etc. It's HIS ranch. Nobody can take that away from him. Even the BLM part. He even has to pay the BLM for the land he uses that isn't his personal deeded land.

This rancher also pays taxes on the livestock that runs on BLM land. They are HIS, so he pays the taxes that are funneled into ADC work to perhaps maintain an acceptable coyote population. He also pays dues to associations that serve to help protect his interests such as the Woolgrowers Assn. The Assn then pays those funds into programs that the USDA has to keep predator populations under control...and this money is met with the previously mentioned tax money the rancher pays in.

The rancher only holds clear titled deed to 85 acres out of 120 SECTIONS of ranch that is his legacy. How are you going to tell him that the only place ADC work is now allowed is on his deeded land?

How are YOU going to handle the situation with the rancher?

Are you going to kick him off his ranch? Are you going to be OK with the higher prices of putting meat on your families table because he's not there anymore, and the demand for meat exceeds the supply?

OK, now say you get the rancher kicked off and he's now gone. No ADC work is happening in the area you want to hunt. In a few years the coyote population is very abundant again.
Word gets out....You go out to hunt, and encounter 7 vehicles in "your" area hunting coyotes. You can't get one in that day. They sit back at 700 yards and bark at you when you get out of the truck. There was a "Contest" that had 150 entries in it last week, and you know they hit "Your" area hard.

Now what are you going to do?

"Your" place isn't any better hunting now, than when the rancher was there. To what avail?

To top it all off, all the guys that hunt antelope, elk and deer are pizzed at you because THEY can't find anything to shoot either. Is your privledge to hunt coyotes more important than the other guys' to hunt what he wants to hunt? Is you privledge to huint coyotes more important than that rancher's right to still work his family ranch and make a living with his legacy.

So now are you going to lobby for a "season" on coyotes? Are you going to restrict the hunters? Are you going to be willing to pay the higher prices for the predator hunting equipment you use because now that there's a "season on coyotes" they manufacturer has 4-5 months out of 12 that the public can't hunt coyotes, and therefore to stay in business, he must paise his prices by 40%?

YOU are in charge now.

HOW are you going to handle the situation with the rancher, the economic impact, the big game hunters?


Originally Posted By: reb8600When we get an over abundance of big game animals in an area, does the DWR go in and kill them. No, they give more tags for the hunters to harvest them. I personally have pretty much given up big game hunting here in Utah. I would prefer to hunt predators, so you can see why I look at it the way I do. Is it whinning? I dont think so. I am looking out for my interest just like the rancher and big game hunter.

Everyone is going to look at it different. Predator hunters could say reduce the tags on the other hunts to create more food for coyotes to increase the numbers just like the other hunters say reduce the coyotes to increase big game and bird numbers. Who is right? It is hard to find a place in the middle that can be agreed upon.

You make an interesting point.

We now create "more food" for the coyotes. We are "Conserving" them now....

Less tags are issued for big game. (That's gonna make some other hunter's real happy. Especially when they find out that the reason is to feed coyotes.)
This now throws the balance of what the G&F Dept. has been working with out of whack. The land will only support SO many deer, antelope, and elk....after that, THEY run out of food. Now we have a teeter totter of coyotes, and livestock and game animals. The balance is hard to find.

What it boils down to is that in every phase of anything that has to do with coyotes, they have ALWAYS been considered a "nuisance animal" and not a "game animal". Despite everything that man has thrown at the coyote, it perserviers, and prospers because of that ability to adapt. Just because we love to hunt them, does that mean that the "nuisance" part is solved?

I'm not trying to argue here. I'm just pointing out that we have dealt with situations like this from the start, and we can deal with this scenario too.
 
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