took out the lamb killer

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Oh com'on NASA, were not talkin rocket science /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

I feel for them when there job is thrown a twist, I deal with it day in and day out with my profession. But to ridicule the guy for what he done, don't make sense to me. That's something that is goin to become more of a normal for them with the rise in predator hunter numbers. Who in there right mind, that loves to call coyotes is goin to turn an offer at helping a rancher or farmer out. If there is on-goin work by an agent at the time the farmer or rancher should inform whomever may be goin after said coyotes.

Come on Fall.....I'm ready to hunt!

JD
 
Mr. Fish,
with your help I have the opportunity to learn something here. Mr. cmiddleton stated that he called and killed a single lone coyote that the herder had described to him.
You stated
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i dont know what you killed but they are probaly conected to a den somewhere which you have made a mess of even if you got 1 of the old coyotes with getting the pups you havent solved any thing there allways other coyotes there to feed them usally that will be lamb.


I understand that nothing was resolved if the coyote that he killed was connected to a different den. I do not understand how he made a mess of it. If the [beeep] and tenders continue feeding lamb to the pups, how has this changed anything for you?
No coyote accompanied the "lone" coyote to survive after witnessing the shooting and make life miserable for you as an educated lamb killer.
If you have to take the den, it still requires the same time eating work of finding straightlines and following them to the intersections.
I just don't have the knowledge or experience to understand how cmiddleton made a mess or influenced your job with this one coyote under these conditions.
Mr. Strader's help enlightening me will also be appreciated, as will Cal's.
PS. Cal is my friend and he will assure you that I am not baiting you.
 
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If there is on-goin work by an agent at the time the farmer or rancher should inform whomever may be goin after said coyotes.



Agreed. However, it wasn't the rancher who made the request, it was his herder. Definitely a communication problem.
 
I'm going to make one last simple post and I'm done with this deal. It never works to try to explain. First off, itrap4you was correct that the herder/sheepman should have never let someone else in, other than the guy that was hired to be there. It always causes problems, and I know for a fact that cmiddleton doesn't have permission to be on most of the other sheep guys in the area. Second, I am talking about DENNING SEASON, the rest of the years calling is not a big deal. More power to all of you and kill all you can from Sept 1st on. The lambs are gone, and the killing is generally over. It is just a numbers control game then, not an actual damage complaint. Third, If you want to know more about what actually takes place, spend the time and money, go take instruction from someone who offers it for damage work. I'm not going to try to explain in a few sentences on the internet, what it takes years to learn. It comes off wrong, and I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. Nasa has a good grasp of what has tried to be explained and is better with words than I am.
 
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If there is on-goin work by an agent at the time the farmer or rancher should inform whomever may be goin after said coyotes.



Agreed. However, it wasn't the rancher who made the request, it was his herder. Definitely a communication problem.



At least the herder spoke english and could tell him about the yote! Better communication than they get on our sheep operations here.
 
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probly did make a mess of that pair how do you guys get them to stop after killing one out of a triple i shot the middle coyote thinking it was the older female and that the closest one would stop at the shot but it didn't and the back one hit the ravin intentaniously no chance for a second shot at them. that big male wont kill anymore



Am I right to assume the big male was the one that you talked about in your first post?

Did you make any effort to go back later that day ,or even the next morning, and work on the other two? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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It never works to try to explain.


Cal, I believe that that is the purpose of participating on these boards, to communicate and explain. And I believe that it does work.

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Third, If you want to know more about what actually takes place, spend the time and money, go take instruction from someone who offers it for damage work.


I didn't ask for a course in ADC or ask for anyone to divulge trade secrets. I just asked why fish believes that a mess was made by killing this one lone coyote?
Cal, I'm not intentionally being obstreperous with you. I honestly want to understand this one event that made a mess for fish. I understand the rest of his ,and your posts, and I understand the frustration that an amateur muddying the waters for a pro can cause. I don't understand the event. Help me out, please. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Intresting thread. Maybe for the sake of understanding and preventing anyone from messing up a profesionals plan, said professional might give a few details as to how the plan got messed up rather than expecting your average hunter to just take your word for it. As someone said above, for most this is just a hunting opportunity and thats hard to pass up.
Also, I applaud anyone who can make a living doing something they like to do, so when I hear statements like "call him at 5am, he's not there and he's not in by 10 (paraphrase) my response would be So! Its what he chooses to do. Based on the rising popularity of predator hunting there will probably be more Mr. Middletons (who has done nothing wrong by the way) legally encroaching on the prfessionals territories. After all, how else can you put in those sweaty hours to become a professional? It really comes down to the will of the landowner who hunts his/her land.
 
Anyone that wants to learn more about ADC..should get Craig O'Gorman's Animal Damage Control tape...that will give you an idea how it works...
 
i posed this the same day i shot it and you guys jumped all over me no i never went back out i don't want to make it hard on you guys but i'll show cal or fish each area that holds denning coyotes out there if they ask maybe that could help instead of hurt.
you guys don't want me to go out i'll leave my rifle at home and got to scouting deer thats what i'm always doing this time of year any how.
tell fish as he drives past the 7 buttes to the omni tower pass the first cattle gaurd to the blm section where the road takes off to the east a pair lives behind that sand dune.
keep going to the omni tower and cross the next cattle gaurd at the top of the first hill to the west go to the second finger facing west as the draw leeds down and meets the next finger of the draw that is where the denners come from the den must be close to the bottom where the first two fingers of the draw meet.
the dead male should be right at the first bench at the top i left it 20 feet from my stand location.
i would go try the rest but not if i'm causing gref to you guys.
i went out on sunday morning and all the chit started flying befor i could go back.
given a whole weekend i bet i would have taken care of all of them but i'm respectful to county agents.
if it was federal guys i'd have went out with or without them.sorry but burrow of rec. took my boat club away!dept of interioris antipublic use of fedral lands and wildlife sevices is moving wolves to places they don't have the right to put them and delaying the delisting on a experimental population not a endangered one.
wolves bother me but taking the sundance boat club away makes me realy mad.
as far as i care the feds should get out and leave wyoming to our legaslaters and governer to do what right for us.
as for the natrona county predator board i'm behind you 100%
dam i should look up at what i type never was good in english class.
 
dcmtex i know your on my side and i know what i did wrong.
when paid hunter are out at a ranch tying to take care of a predation problem they don't have time or can't take the time to take out all coyotes to solve a problem they consentrate on finding only the trouble makers take them out and the problem is solved. as they say all coyotes are not the problem its certan denning coyotes that do all the damage.
when i took only one of the three that came and did not kill the den i made the female move the pups to a new site
now the leg work of following denning trails{where the female leads the pups to water every morning} i have made his job harder by changing the route the coyotes take and it will take longer to find them. now they have been educated to the pup in distress and a new sound will be needed even though they only heard it one time for under one minite you better think they will remember it and will probaly not respond as well. all taking more time.
with denning dogs and a siran i still think fish will have no problem finding the den he is good at what he does
i'm not perfect and i know i should have taken out all the denning yotes and pups but it doesn't always work like clock work.
i should have stayed all day and cleaned up the others as they returned to the pups and then took all the pups.
i know how this stuff works and don't want to make fish have a harder time cleaning up after me.
on the same note i looked for and found the marker post for the eadge of the area boardering the den fish took out then found tracks followed them up the draw i was told to look in saw it was one coyote coming accross the fence in the same spot every time,followed it to the eadge of a big draw and thought there is water staight down this draw if there is a den it will be down there sat down out of sight and turned on the pup tape befor the pup wimpper turned to the howl i had three coyotes comming full speed the middle one stopped at 200 yrds the back one was full speed at 300 and the front one was coming at 50 or less.
i normaly shoot the back one first and the others will stop not knowing where the shot came from. this time i took the middle one thats where i skrewed up the others took off like they where shot out of a cannon no chance to even get on them with a second shot. i tryed to get on the howler and doing a coyote in distress with no responce,went back to pup in distress with challange howls mixed in and still nothing returned. usually i can clean them up this way but not this time. if i would have had my coyote decoy it would have helpped they generally slow down a little when they spot it to size it up and once they do see it the will not leave for long. there are a lot of things i should have done and didn't yep i was wrong for not fully thinking things out.
i never saw any of the females tracks on the sheep side of the den they are going down hill to water. i never knew there where three i thought it would be two. i thought if i shot the back one i'd have no problem picking up the double the third and the draws threw me off.
when the back one hit the draw after the shot i swung to it and when it never came back up it was to late for the first one.i have taken triples even though i have a three shot clip but it didn't work this time. i should have found the den first befor i ever called then i could have taken the pups out
i still say i took the one that was seen in the sheep and the one i was told to go after. it wasn't a total loss
so lets get on with more posts and start telling us the proper ways to take out dens and the right way to call summer time coyotes without hurting the paid denners progress.
 
dcmtex

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After all, how else can you put in those sweaty hours to become a professional?



I hear you. In the summer time, for the recreational caller, the tactics are the same no matter if you are calling sheep,fawn, rabbit or pheasant killers. It's just the the stakes are quite abit higher when your dealing with someones livelihood.

Why not cut your teeth on some non-sheep killers?

This time of year you are more than likely going to be dealing with litters. Good practise would be to see how many of the adults you can call or also can you call any of the pups.

By reading middletons posts, what's your assumptions or gut feeling on what he was dealing with? Do you think there was a litter involved. How close would he have been to them to get that reaction out of the three adults? Would that litter be moved instantly after the male was shot or would you still have a chance to call the other two in later in the day(from possibly the same spot) or even the next morning? If all the adults are shot could some of the litter be call in with lip squeaks or small rodent distress? Could you call all of them or would some just stay hidden?
 
Greenside, excellent questions I would like to see Fish or one of the other professionals answer. That would go along way in keeping recreational callers like myself from messing up their plan.
 
CM....still, it sounds like it was a great shot.

I know nothing of the politics of predator control...aside from the fact that I love to control predators. My area doesnt't have the large scale ranch operations, ergo no predator control board, and few nusiance trappers. I have learned alot about this business from your post, and for that, I thank you, and all those who have jumped in to help those of us who are "out of the loop" understand.

WNYS
 
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Good practise would be to see (if you can) call any of the pups.



Right now the pups are likely still too young to respond to calling. They're staying real close to the den this time of year. The only sounds they recognize right now are momma's barks, woofs, and growls. In another 3-4 weeks they will be accompanying mom and dad on food forays and start learning the ropes about how to catch their own food. That's when they learn what distress cries sound like!

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Would that litter be moved instantly after the male was shot



Depends on the situation at the time. Also depends on the temperment of the remaining coyotes. The den will be moved for sure, but too many factors influence exactly "when".

Locating the new den site is difficult without the aid of denning dogs. The den guardians will run out to challenge the dogs when they get close. After the adults are shot, the dogs follow their scent trail back to the den. Then the pups can be dug out and dispatched in a humane way.
 
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Right now the pups are likely still too young to respond to calling. They're staying real close to the den this time of year



Ya think if you get in thier face and give them some rodent squeaks that they won't respond?

Right now, in my area the litters are probably in the back corner of some cornfield, maybe a mile or so from thier last den sight. They will probably be there tommorrow and the next day or who knows how long.
 
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I said "likely" too young for a reason. As you know, litters are not born all at the same time in the U.S. Lower latitudes are born much earlier in the year than up in the northern latitudes. Wyoming is far enough north that pups are not all free roaming just yet.
 
Wow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
I WILL NOT take anyone's side in this debate.
However, I have to wonder if this debate is really necessary? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I understand...people sometimes disagree on certain things. But, hasn't this went on long enough? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Or maybe this ol' redneck just can't see the trees for lookin' at the forest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
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