took out the lamb killer

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Fact: Some coyotes will kill sheep.

Fact: All coyotes will scavenge a dead sheep.

Fiction: All coyotes are sheep killers.

Do not assume every coyote within 50 miles of a killed lamb is a "lamb killer". That is just plain ignorance of the facts of coyote biology. Listen to the professionals. The mentality of "Kill them all and let God sort them out" just shows a lack of training and zero knowledge of predator management.
 
the sheep hurder didn't see all three coyotes coming from this spot but she did see one of them best bet is that it was the male he was a big old dog and came from the spot she told me to go. not only one set of coyotes live in one 2000 acre pasture the best way to get your sheep safe is to lower the total population befor lambing then pick off the domenate pairs living in close procsimaty to the lambs.
young and transeant coyotes are not the problem its the ones who rule the roost.
the domenate male does do most the killing out of a pair and one who is seen in the lambs should be taken out.
it is best to take both but some times things don't work out that way.
yes the female and a young female are still there and they will move the den to a new spot {maybe this will be farther from the lambs}
there are more rabbits both jacks and cotten tails there than anywhere i have ever seen. now the female and young female will think twice befor returning to that spot and just may hunt rabbits closer to the den.
this is not a perfect world and with the domanate male gone they will most likly pick up a new male who may prefer rabbit to lamb.either way i took out the one coyote i was told to go after.
adc people beleve that to kill one den cures all the problem on a 16000 acre ranch are wrong soon the lambs will be moved to the murphy pasture and the den fish took was on that side of the pasture they are in so yes he did good i'm not taking anything away from that but if you go to the dunes there are still two groups that i know of seeing how the adc didn't fly it like i was told. one more group straight south of the dunes. i know that there are 6 coyotes that i didn't get in the winter which one of those groups do you think will be the next lamb killers?
would you gamble on one group or would you take them all out?
14 dead lambs or 6 dead coyotes? i know what my answer to it would be {hire a privite plane and gun all 6 befor the lambs are moved} then keep me in there calling any trying to move back in.
not exactly what the adc {wildlife services} folks think
or tree huggers.
the best thing that could happen is not to lose any lambs to begin with.then we wouldn't need adc thinking we are tromping on thair coyotes.
this is a coyote calling forum and calling coyotes is what we do. i told you guys befor i don't normally call this time of year because i love calling where coyotes are every where but dead lambs are $$$$ waisted if i have to take one out that has been killing lambs i don't have a problem with it. if i have to take a pair i will. and if the rancher asks me to call in a spot where he or she has seen a problem come from i will take her advice find where the tracks are coming from and kill the offenders.some times i get them all and some times i don't either way i bet i helped save some lambs.
this ain't my first rodeo.
 
Mr. Middleton, I'm glad you seem to have all the answers. You should take over the county program, which is not by the way Wildlife services. Natrona county has a private predator control program ran by a board made up of the sheepmen in the county. Go tell Mills, Owens, Forgeys, Dodds, and Martons to fire Fish and hire you, because you have all the answers and are taking over. Explain to them when and where they should run the plane or chopper and then have them come up with the money to do it. I'd be curious as to how far you get. You crack me up! I'd really like to see you explain to Fish what he is doing wrong, when he has a whole county to over see, and you are talking about one small deal on a miniscule portion of the county. I'm sure you killed a coyote or two, there are plenty around. Who knows if you did any good or not, maybe maybe not. Even you don't know. I tried to explain in another thread that it is pretty important to clean up a group of coyotes completely or the killing isn't likely to stop. But you don't seem to grasp the whole picture. If you were competant and had the time to do things correctly, including finding and taking all the adults and pups, Fish probably wouldn't have a problem with you calling in the summer in the sheep that he is trying to protect. But what usually happens in these deals is something gets screwed up and the problem gets worse and when he get another call from the person that let you in, he has to come out and spend days trying to solve a problem that normally would have taken him a day if the coyotes hadn't beed called and shot at already, and probably have been moved three times. Then to top that off, he has no clue what is left there for adults and may spend an extra day looking for a coyote that isn't there, but he's thorough and has to spend the time doing so, all the while, while he has wasted three of four days cleaning up someone elses mess, somebody else in the county is having the same problems elsewhere and has lost a bunch more lambs because Fish can't get there fast enough because he was trying to finish up someone elses screw up. You can bet that he will not be a happy camper in these situations. And you have to also realize that for him he has more than one person to answer to. While he is trying to get everywhere he needs to be, the guys that are losing sheep have his number on speed dial, and they will deliver a butt chewing to him that you are indirectly responsible for. There is more to it than whacking a coyote occasionally and thinking you done good because it was in the sheep. Like I said in the other thread, I know what Fish does and is capable of and how hard he works. If you are taking between 600 and 1000 coyotes a year by yourself, you aren't having many days off and I'll guarantee that if you call his house at 5 am he ain't there, he's already gone, and if you call his house before 10 pm, he ain't there then either. In his time in Natrona county, I would venture that he has killed somewhere around 10,000 coyotes. How do you like those numbers?
 
i took the one coyote i was told to take if thats to much for you guys to handle you are to self centered the female at the end of the buttes was half of a pair that i took the male out of in march she was still alone.
i know fish does good work i keep saying that.
i don't call except when asked to in the spring and summer look at some of my old posts to varafy it.
i hunt antlers during april and may then start going up muddy after mamorial weekend and start concentrating on deer and elk. i start hunting coyotes right after my elk or deer hits the dirt generally mid october.
when asked to i can and will hunt to keep the rancher happy
i have killed many pairs and dens fact remains she told me one coyote was coming from that draw and i took the male most likly the one she saw.
 
Let me try to help you understand what Cal is saying. You killed one coyote. That didn't "fix" the problem. It just made more work for someone who is more experienced to do.

You didn't finish the job that you "started". You see yourself as having done something good, when in reality your interference just made the job harder for the professionals.

I'm sure you meant well, you just don't seem to know any better. Cal has denning dogs. They are necessary "tools" for spring/summer ADC work. I doubt you have the proper tools or experience for denning, otherwise none of us would be having this conversation, would we?
 
Excuse me, but am I getting the idea that if you aren't a "professional" coyote hunter that maybe you should take up golf? Talk about chest pounding! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
When saying that you're a "professional" does that mean you have a BA, MBA, or PHD in coyote? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Or just that you have a helicoptor & plane?
Also being a "professional" I am to assume that you are being paid for your services. So where were you "professionals" when some rookie coyote hunter was out aiding & abetting the sheep killers. Vacation? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
That farmer/rancher was loosing his livelyhood daily. I can see why he'd be for getting someone out there killing the sheepkillers. Then again maybe it's a professional code not to take all the sheepkillers that way you will always be needed?
How do you get paid? Flat rate, $/coyote? Maybe it should be Flat rate w/ a deduction for every lamb killed. Then I bet you'd get a grasp on what the F/R is going though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Pardon me for being so brash, I've meant no disrespect, but this is what I'm seeing from your posts though the eyes of an ol' farm boy that wishes coyotes were eliminated from his home state.
 
Victor, the questions you, and others, have brought up show the general lack of awareness many predator hunters have about their target animal.

I'll start another thread that will invite the "professionals" to provide insight and some basics when it comes to dealing with a "stock killer". There are a lot of wrong assumptions and an equal number of misconceptions that really need to be cleared up.

I would not even begin to compare myself with the people who have been schooled in the knowledge and techniques necessary to do this job properly. I have some awareness of what it takes, but not the skill and experience they possess. I hope we can all benefit from their input.
 
"I'll start another thread that will invite the "professionals" to provide insight and some basics when it comes to dealing with a "stock killer"." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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I've got to agree with Victor on this one. The Pro's may know what they are talking about but it was done by talking down to cmiddleton and the rest of us poor unedjuatacated boobs. Even when the reasons were laid out for the "hows and why's" of summer ADC a stick was used to beat the man over the head and tell him what kind of bloomin idiot he was in the process. Gentlemen, step back and reread this thread and see if it doesn't look like the cur dog was being ganged up on by the purebreds. Why is it that when men from Mossuri, Oklahoma, Texas and lands other than Wyoming (which is my favorite state in the union, btw) post on here that they just shot the umpteenth coyote since May 14 and download a picture or three to prove it the same type of response isn't forthcoming?
I wouldn't mind learning the ins and outs of your work. I bet even cmiddleton would even like to learn more of it. Shoot, the man said as much in a couple of his posts and hoped to have the chance to watch first hand if someone were to give him the opportunity.
 
Boy I'm glad I don't live in Wyoming!!!!!!

It's a shame that if your not a pro you can't hunt there, even when the landowner tells you where the coyote he wants killed in coming from!!!!

I've got to agree with Chris and Victor on this one, you guys took Middleton and threw him under the bus for simply doing what the landowner asked him to do, then being proud enough of it to tell the good people on PM about a successful hunt.

As for the spelling bee part, there are VERY few people on this board that spell EVERY word correctly, myself included, spelling is not as big a problem as punctuation is.(see fish's post, it reads like Farris Buellers teacher wrote it)

No offense fish, it was just a good example of my point.

I have never met Mr. Middleton, and usually don't take sides on petty arguements like this one. Nor do I have any knowledge of how the "Private Predator Control" program works in Wyoming, but I see no reason that him killing 17 coyotes off a place that is raising sheep (and presumably losing sheep to coyotes) could possibly cause someone else to have to spend "three of four days cleaning up someone elses mess" Could someone please enlighten me as to how this would happen? I honestly would like to know.

Around here if you were to kill 17 coyote off of many places combined you would be a hero to every rancher in the county.

I agree that you shouldn't hunt during this season, for ethical reasons, and I don't for those reasons. And our government trappers don't trap either, be it fur quality or just job security next year. But if the landowner asked him to kill the coyote that had been coming down a certain draw towards their sheep, he called it, shot it, bragged about it, made the landowner happy, then more power to him!!!!

No need to rake him through the coals for being an outdoorsman, a coyote hunter, just like EVERY other member of this board.

I don't want to point any fingers, nor run anyone down here, just simply want to say, congrats on a successful hunt Middleton, you have done nothing wrong.

BTW, welcome to the board Mr. Fish, and honestly no offense was meant to you. PERIOD.
 
Any other time of the year it wouldn't make a bit of difference. But denning coyotes is a very specialized activity. Timing is critical. The control agents have worked it out to a science and follow a pretty regulated pattern. When someone steps in and inadvertantly disrupts that pattern it throws the whole routine out of synch. Now, "alternative" steps must be devised and tested, usually by trail and error. This takes time. So now a 48-72 hr job ends up taking 5-6 days. This deviation throws their whole job schedule off for the rest of the week and other ranches don't get serviced on time. This means more of their stock dying unnecessarily. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
i never said anything agenced fish or the county predator boards in my life. adc {wild life services is a differant story} i do not trust them or the federal fish and wild life service. they are ran by left wing anti hunters.
i tryed to put in a application as a agent and was offered the job if i would go sign the application.My wife told me i could not take it because she new i wanted to get inside as a anti wolf voice from wyoming.
i do know the differance between county and adc county guys kill coyotes adc would rather transplant them.
hows that for a new can of worms to open.as long as the chits flying lets dance.
and yes i am the worst speller on the internet.i could care less thats what we have our office girls for.i say it they type it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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NASA, are you an ADC agent?

Work is work, that is there chosen profession, hell, i have jobs that take twice the time i figured because of other sub-contractors on jobs but you know what, that's life, it ain't always easy.

Congrats Cmiddleton, glad you could score a coyote and gain access to other game to hunt.

JD
 
I think you're right about the Federal Wildlife Service. Just like a lot of the State Wildlife Depts. they are being taken over by the bunny hugger community. All they care about is "protection". And they will take away our public land and our hunting rights to achieve their agenda.
 
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NASA, are you an ADC agent?


JD, you know better than that. I'm not near smart enough for real work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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