Rusty Holt
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Ralph Lermayer's "It Is What It Is!" article in Predator Xtreme......
- Thread starter Rusty Holt
- Start date
Joel Hughes
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I don’t think anybody here suggested that we (“we”, as in anyone that has to deal in only private land access, not a certain US State of “we”) care what it looks like from the outside looking in. We are just trying to explain the facts. We don’t expect you to understand when all you have is public land access. Since many of you don't have any experience in it, we are just stating that it is bad news for those of us that aren't money bags to have others pay for coyote hunting access. You giving an opinion on it makes as much sense as me giving opinions on whether you should be screwed out of your public ground by it being sold to private landowners. Like you say…why should you care if someone pays to kick me off? That’s understandable, I guess, that you don’t care. Well why should I care if you can’t hunt on your public land tomorrow? I don’t. But I’ll bet you that you’d do what you could to avoid it.
Someone will say “Well, it’s their land, they can do what they please.” Yep! Exactly! They aren’t stupid! I know that. I am not saying that. I’m just saying I want to be as far away from assisting them in figuring it out.
Now, to the point of guides that has come up multiple times without an answer. I was hoping someone else would answer this. LOL
At the risk of ticking off a few very respectable guides (and maybe even a few I could care less about), let me step as lightly into that question as I know how. Some won't agree and some will get feathers ruffled, but here goes.
I actually partly agree with some of what has been said regarding comparing guided coyote hunts to paying landowners. I think both can be and have been harmful. However, there is a major difference. So, to answer the question, the difference in my opinion is landowner perception/landowner relations/landowner point of view. Someone going straight to a landowner and offering money to kill coyotes is bad for private land hunting. It is bad for my future, your future, and our kids' future. When you choose to pay landowners, you are going straight to everybody’s source with your money. It affects the weekend warriors, the predator control guys, the fur hunters, dads with their kids going out to make a few stands, the people who gain free access, guides, even other future paying hunters.
On the other hand, when you pay a guide, the landowner may or may not get dollar-vision, so the affect is not as direct and certain.
Sometimes, however, they do see guiding on their land as money opportunities, and even some others are just rubbed the wrong way by it if they catch wind of it. Same with the video guys and the hunting contests on that private land. I did not say ALL landowners, maybe not even a majority at this point in time, but some. I'm not jumping on sides, I'm just telling the way I see it, and why I personally will never do any of it. Maybe the landowners that have expressed that to me were off their rockers. LOL I don't know. Maybe this makes me unpopular too, but the question came up and that’s my take on it.
And, others will call me selfish. Someone will ask me if I've ever bought a coyote video, or a foxpro, or this product, or that product, or ask if I have ever boastfully posted a kill photo on the public internet, or even sold some fur to the fur buyer. And to my "Yes, sure I have" answer, they will respond, "Well then you're just as bad for predator hunting!!" I hear ya!! Loud and clear! Dang, life's a b**ch! It's sort of a no-win situation. Because, as has been said, it will become a money game at some point, if not already. Point taken, but opinions differ on what we consider harmful, and I don't have to go down with my boots off.
Someone will say “Well, it’s their land, they can do what they please.” Yep! Exactly! They aren’t stupid! I know that. I am not saying that. I’m just saying I want to be as far away from assisting them in figuring it out.
Now, to the point of guides that has come up multiple times without an answer. I was hoping someone else would answer this. LOL
At the risk of ticking off a few very respectable guides (and maybe even a few I could care less about), let me step as lightly into that question as I know how. Some won't agree and some will get feathers ruffled, but here goes.
I actually partly agree with some of what has been said regarding comparing guided coyote hunts to paying landowners. I think both can be and have been harmful. However, there is a major difference. So, to answer the question, the difference in my opinion is landowner perception/landowner relations/landowner point of view. Someone going straight to a landowner and offering money to kill coyotes is bad for private land hunting. It is bad for my future, your future, and our kids' future. When you choose to pay landowners, you are going straight to everybody’s source with your money. It affects the weekend warriors, the predator control guys, the fur hunters, dads with their kids going out to make a few stands, the people who gain free access, guides, even other future paying hunters.
On the other hand, when you pay a guide, the landowner may or may not get dollar-vision, so the affect is not as direct and certain.
Sometimes, however, they do see guiding on their land as money opportunities, and even some others are just rubbed the wrong way by it if they catch wind of it. Same with the video guys and the hunting contests on that private land. I did not say ALL landowners, maybe not even a majority at this point in time, but some. I'm not jumping on sides, I'm just telling the way I see it, and why I personally will never do any of it. Maybe the landowners that have expressed that to me were off their rockers. LOL I don't know. Maybe this makes me unpopular too, but the question came up and that’s my take on it.
And, others will call me selfish. Someone will ask me if I've ever bought a coyote video, or a foxpro, or this product, or that product, or ask if I have ever boastfully posted a kill photo on the public internet, or even sold some fur to the fur buyer. And to my "Yes, sure I have" answer, they will respond, "Well then you're just as bad for predator hunting!!" I hear ya!! Loud and clear! Dang, life's a b**ch! It's sort of a no-win situation. Because, as has been said, it will become a money game at some point, if not already. Point taken, but opinions differ on what we consider harmful, and I don't have to go down with my boots off.
Todd, I think I get it. And I have Nooooooo problem with it. But, like you said, we're from different places, with a different take on some things. I think it's awesome that you, Barry, Rusty and the others are able to gain access by making phone calls and talking to people. I wish I were capable of doing the same. I hunt only where no permission is required. But I know of places with better hunting, that maybe I could get on, if I were capable of asking permission. But, I'm not. And I'm not alone - there are lots of guys around here with the same attititude (or problem, depending on your point of view). Like you said, I imagine it's largely just a product of where and how we grew up.
But, just like I have Nooooooo problem with you guys and your way of life, I had to conclude that I really don't have any problem with the guys that will pay, either. If your only choices are pay, or don't hunt, and you can afford to pay, I'm not going to hold it against you.
By the way, kind of an aside, but there is always good and bad to things. I never have to ask permission, which is good. But, I can NEVER go back and hunt the places where I started out with my Dad years ago. Nobody is ever going to be able to hunt those areas ever again. Too many people moving in. The spot I called and killed my first coyote, is under a church parking lot now, as best I can tell. Neighborhoods, streets, hiways, grocery stores, gas stations, churches and the like cover pretty much all the ground I started out hunting on as a kid with my Dad. Even the places my partner Tim and I use to go rabbit hunting as teenagers is all developed and covered in asphalt and houses now. That ground is gone forever, and more public ground is going the same way every day, around here. It's not hard to imagine, that by the time my Son gets to the age I'm age I'm at now (another 30 years), the public ground will be so narrowed and chopped up, segmented, used, abused and over run with all manner of recreational users, that the type of hunting I enjoy now, will be only a faint memory, gone forever. At that point, the private ground, will be all that's left. So I sure hope to [beeep], that my Son either learns how to ask permission, or makes enough money to pay for it - because "my" way of life, is disapearing right before my own eyes...
- DAA
But, just like I have Nooooooo problem with you guys and your way of life, I had to conclude that I really don't have any problem with the guys that will pay, either. If your only choices are pay, or don't hunt, and you can afford to pay, I'm not going to hold it against you.
By the way, kind of an aside, but there is always good and bad to things. I never have to ask permission, which is good. But, I can NEVER go back and hunt the places where I started out with my Dad years ago. Nobody is ever going to be able to hunt those areas ever again. Too many people moving in. The spot I called and killed my first coyote, is under a church parking lot now, as best I can tell. Neighborhoods, streets, hiways, grocery stores, gas stations, churches and the like cover pretty much all the ground I started out hunting on as a kid with my Dad. Even the places my partner Tim and I use to go rabbit hunting as teenagers is all developed and covered in asphalt and houses now. That ground is gone forever, and more public ground is going the same way every day, around here. It's not hard to imagine, that by the time my Son gets to the age I'm age I'm at now (another 30 years), the public ground will be so narrowed and chopped up, segmented, used, abused and over run with all manner of recreational users, that the type of hunting I enjoy now, will be only a faint memory, gone forever. At that point, the private ground, will be all that's left. So I sure hope to [beeep], that my Son either learns how to ask permission, or makes enough money to pay for it - because "my" way of life, is disapearing right before my own eyes...
- DAA
Joel, you type faster than I do, so I didn't get to read your post before making mine.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. It just is what it is. And in your shoes, I'd be fighting it with whatever means I had available.
I agree too, that me offering my opinion on this subject is pretty much worthless. Waste of my time writing it. Waste of everyone elses reading it. I won't waste anymore of mine or your time on it.
- DAA
I agree with pretty much everything you said. It just is what it is. And in your shoes, I'd be fighting it with whatever means I had available.
I agree too, that me offering my opinion on this subject is pretty much worthless. Waste of my time writing it. Waste of everyone elses reading it. I won't waste anymore of mine or your time on it.
- DAA
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If access were all you were paying for, then you'd get dropped off in the dark at the gate and the "guide" would tell you he'd be there to pick you up in the morning. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Rusty
Of course there's more to guiding then just access. But the bottom line is money is changing hands so somebody can hunt predators. My point is that if someone thinks it's bad for the sport of predator hunting for a landowner to make money off of predator hunting, how can it be OK for a guide to make money off of it----especially when that guide depends on the landowner to give him access to the land he isguiding on? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
I'm from Louisiana and I make one trip to Texas a year with my sons to hunt predators. I've gone the guide route and I've also paid a rancher for access and place to stay while I'm there. I don't think doing either of those things is bad for predator hunting and I know it's good for the local economy. I'm not a fat cat either, just a guy who saves his pennies so he can spend some time in the great outdoors with his sons. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
If access were all you were paying for, then you'd get dropped off in the dark at the gate and the "guide" would tell you he'd be there to pick you up in the morning. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Rusty
Of course there's more to guiding then just access. But the bottom line is money is changing hands so somebody can hunt predators. My point is that if someone thinks it's bad for the sport of predator hunting for a landowner to make money off of predator hunting, how can it be OK for a guide to make money off of it----especially when that guide depends on the landowner to give him access to the land he isguiding on? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
I'm from Louisiana and I make one trip to Texas a year with my sons to hunt predators. I've gone the guide route and I've also paid a rancher for access and place to stay while I'm there. I don't think doing either of those things is bad for predator hunting and I know it's good for the local economy. I'm not a fat cat either, just a guy who saves his pennies so he can spend some time in the great outdoors with his sons. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Rusty Holt
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Rusty,
I pay because I think the odds of Joe Blow From Louisiana (me) showing up on some rancher's doorstep, asking for permission to hunt, and getting it probably aren't that great. Maybe I'm wrong. Additionally, the ranch that I hunt has a place for me and my sons to stay. I pay about what it would cost me to stay in a hotel anyway, so why not kill two birds with one stone. I get a place to stay, a place to hunt, and the rancher gives me advice on where to call. Of course, if any of you big hearted Texans wants to take me and my sons hunting for free I'll glady take you up on the offer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I pay because I think the odds of Joe Blow From Louisiana (me) showing up on some rancher's doorstep, asking for permission to hunt, and getting it probably aren't that great. Maybe I'm wrong. Additionally, the ranch that I hunt has a place for me and my sons to stay. I pay about what it would cost me to stay in a hotel anyway, so why not kill two birds with one stone. I get a place to stay, a place to hunt, and the rancher gives me advice on where to call. Of course, if any of you big hearted Texans wants to take me and my sons hunting for free I'll glady take you up on the offer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Rusty Holt
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So you won't take me hunting for free until you get to know me but a rancher who has never laid eyes on me before is going to give me access to the land he make his livelyhood on for free? Interesting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif Those Texas ranchers must be trusting individuals.
Rusty Holt
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I understand the first statement perfectly well. What I don't understand is why a rancher who doesn't know me is going to give me permission to hunt his ranch just because I show up on his door step asking for it. You wouldn't want to take me hunting until you had a pretty good idea that I'm not going to do something boneheaded. That's perfectly reasonable. And I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a rancher to deny an out of state guy permission to hunt for that very same reason. (Even a nice guy like me.)I think what you native Texans are overlooking is that you have a history and probably some connections in the areas you hunt. Maybe you don't initially know the rancher directly, but maybe you have some friends in common. Us out of state guys lack that history and those connections. That's why I'm doubtful I'd have much luck gaining access. Understand? Maybe next year I'll try knocking on a few doors and see what happens.
Rusty Holt
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Bottom line.....the "glass half-empty" type of attitude won't cut it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Good luck and dig deep,
Rusty
You call it a glass half-empty attitude I call it being realistic and making smart use of my limited time in Texas. A day spent looking for land to call is a day I could have spent calling. Since I'm staying on the ranch and getting to call there for little more than it would cost to stay in a hotel anyway, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do it any other way.
And remember, you started this thread with a very long "the-sky-is-going-to-fall-on-all-us-predator-hunters" post because somebody wrote a magazine article. Sounds kind of like a glass half-empty attitude to me. Nothing personal and best to you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Bottom line.....the "glass half-empty" type of attitude won't cut it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Good luck and dig deep,
Rusty
You call it a glass half-empty attitude I call it being realistic and making smart use of my limited time in Texas. A day spent looking for land to call is a day I could have spent calling. Since I'm staying on the ranch and getting to call there for little more than it would cost to stay in a hotel anyway, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do it any other way.
And remember, you started this thread with a very long "the-sky-is-going-to-fall-on-all-us-predator-hunters" post because somebody wrote a magazine article. Sounds kind of like a glass half-empty attitude to me. Nothing personal and best to you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Todd Woodall
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First off, my two year old picked the post icon. He calls him "Jumpy". Where did my youth go? I am 31, have grey hair invading my head, and my daughters spent the evening pulling hairs out of their dads ears! Holy cow! Hold on, I have to go fill another sippy cup with milk..... Just funnin, I wouldnt have it any other way.
fitz,
I think Rusty summed up my thoughts on the "guide" vs. "pay for access" situation. One you are paying for a "service", the other you are paying for "access". I have guided before and it is alot of work, a guide is well worth his money. His services go WAY beyond the land you hunt on.
Joel,
I used to totally disagree with you, but I have seen landowners get itchy hands when they know you are making some coin. I can see where a lazy guide would find himself greasing a palm to make his life easier. I think this is in the guides court, the vast majority I know would not even consider it.
DAA,
Tried to send you a PM, your "rockstar worthy" mailbox is full! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Guys I am not blind, we are fighting a battle we will not win. Like it or not, the pay for acess thing will be the norm one day. I just hate the thought of it, and will do whatever I can to let my kids have the same opportunities that I have had. Its articles like this that really stick in my craw. A couple extra sold mags will make him happy, but he is ultimately hurting the average joe predator hunter in the process.
While discussing this on a hunt a while back a friend of mine made a comment that really bothered me. The comment was "its the American way". I think you can substitute "lazy" for "American" in that statement. That bothers me more than anything.
Take care,
Todd
fitz,
I think Rusty summed up my thoughts on the "guide" vs. "pay for access" situation. One you are paying for a "service", the other you are paying for "access". I have guided before and it is alot of work, a guide is well worth his money. His services go WAY beyond the land you hunt on.
Joel,
I used to totally disagree with you, but I have seen landowners get itchy hands when they know you are making some coin. I can see where a lazy guide would find himself greasing a palm to make his life easier. I think this is in the guides court, the vast majority I know would not even consider it.
DAA,
Tried to send you a PM, your "rockstar worthy" mailbox is full! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Guys I am not blind, we are fighting a battle we will not win. Like it or not, the pay for acess thing will be the norm one day. I just hate the thought of it, and will do whatever I can to let my kids have the same opportunities that I have had. Its articles like this that really stick in my craw. A couple extra sold mags will make him happy, but he is ultimately hurting the average joe predator hunter in the process.
While discussing this on a hunt a while back a friend of mine made a comment that really bothered me. The comment was "its the American way". I think you can substitute "lazy" for "American" in that statement. That bothers me more than anything.
Take care,
Todd
Rusty Holt
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Rusty Holt
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GEORGE ACKLEY
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Well I am back home,
we hunted a new ranch out side of Carrizo spring .. and Texas is less 12 hogs witch one was a real monster
taken with a bow, 3 cats and 12 dogs 5 rattlers.
seams to me mange must be bad in that area, we killed some ugly critters and also had one walk right into the camp as we loaded the truck to head home that was in really bad shape..
yea know guys you have no solutions for us guys that live out of state on gaining access to land ,
you just sound mad that we are there .I do wish I could just run down and knock on doors but its not realistic for a guy that lives 1900 miles away . almost sound like all you guys that make cash off hunters are just not happy with us cutting out the guide . don't get me wrong guides are a grate thing for those that need them , we dont pay a guides in Texas to kill pests .
we paid $400 a gun for the week and that was with the camp on the ranch witch sleeps 16 and that also has all the amenity of home . we hunted 3, 5000 acre sections .and ran dogs for 2 of the hogs on another 4000 acres section . yes I have hunted with guides in the past but not many , there are places I need to hunt that you cant hunt without one ..
but here is the good news . this topic came up in a feed store and a nice gentlemen from Odessa was there and invited me to bring my group for free to hunt and call his place in west Texas around a place called Hobbs and his friends place around Andrews TX
So all is good now pal and we are hunting Texas for free next trip /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
you do your thing i 'll do mine.
peace /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
we hunted a new ranch out side of Carrizo spring .. and Texas is less 12 hogs witch one was a real monster
taken with a bow, 3 cats and 12 dogs 5 rattlers.
seams to me mange must be bad in that area, we killed some ugly critters and also had one walk right into the camp as we loaded the truck to head home that was in really bad shape..
yea know guys you have no solutions for us guys that live out of state on gaining access to land ,
you just sound mad that we are there .I do wish I could just run down and knock on doors but its not realistic for a guy that lives 1900 miles away . almost sound like all you guys that make cash off hunters are just not happy with us cutting out the guide . don't get me wrong guides are a grate thing for those that need them , we dont pay a guides in Texas to kill pests .
we paid $400 a gun for the week and that was with the camp on the ranch witch sleeps 16 and that also has all the amenity of home . we hunted 3, 5000 acre sections .and ran dogs for 2 of the hogs on another 4000 acres section . yes I have hunted with guides in the past but not many , there are places I need to hunt that you cant hunt without one ..
but here is the good news . this topic came up in a feed store and a nice gentlemen from Odessa was there and invited me to bring my group for free to hunt and call his place in west Texas around a place called Hobbs and his friends place around Andrews TX
So all is good now pal and we are hunting Texas for free next trip /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
you do your thing i 'll do mine.
peace /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
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Rusty Holt
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GEORGE ACKLEY
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numbers were good for the time i spent on them, we weren't there just for predators. some days and nights were spent
just haveing a little fun with the hogs,and then you have
Mexico /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYfPlAIcoQU&feature=channel_page
as for the photos there coming pal,
give me time to get settled in and take care of some little things that came up on my trip
that need tending to /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
just haveing a little fun with the hogs,and then you have
Mexico /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYfPlAIcoQU&feature=channel_page
as for the photos there coming pal,
give me time to get settled in and take care of some little things that came up on my trip
that need tending to /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
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