EJ Reichenbach
New member
What is your take on all this cat
Keyholing suddenly! Ahhh! 17Rem...
- Thread starter DiRTY DOG
- Start date
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
*** UPDATE ***
I cleaned the bore. 10x patches on a jag with Shooter's Choice. Ran a bronze brush 50x. More SC. Then a few patches of carb cleaner. My .17cal bronze brush seems to have gotten skinnier since I used it last and didn't do much of anything. I'll have to order a new brush, nobody carries them around here.
Next I ran about 60x patches with Sweet's 7.62, at least 30 seconds apart, some a minute or more. Never had that many blue patches before in any rifle, let alone this 17Rem. These are the Sweet's patches, in order top to bottom L to R. It's not perfectly clean, but I was impatient to see if it really was copper buildup causing the keyholing.
Took it out for a spin. 100 yards, elevated position, slight breeze R to L, no obstructions of any kind. My "good" hunting load using 25gr Hornady HP, 24.7gr IMR 4320, CCI BR4, coal 2.165".
Target looked like this when I was done. 16 rounds fired.
Now let's break it down:
Loaded 5 in the mag. Group A: First 2 "fouling" shots were at the tip of this piece of tape. Yes! Looks like my problem is solved...
Waited 5 minutes and then shot the other three rounds into Group B. Hmm, some vertical spread there... It was NOT me. I waited a few minutes and then reloaded 5 rounds into the mag and fired Group C, fist two shots in the same hole, ok getting better.
I had two shots left in the mag so I adjusted the elevation down and then fired Group D. Ok, now we're talking!
I had fired TEN shots so far from a pretty clean bore. Not perfectly clean but getting there. I waited about ten minutes and then fired Group E. Are you kidding me?!
On the bright side, that was the best group I've fired in a while from this rifle, cockeyed bullets and all. F it, I'd kinda like to see what this load does to a coyote!
So I loaded three rounds with bullets from a different lot, just to make sure it was not a bad lot. Oh suck!
The bullets started tumbling after about 12 shots. I only fired 16 total. The load was my original "good" hunting load that has shot well before and killed stuff out to 385 yards so far.
Still think my problem is copper buildup? I know I did not clean the bore 100% yet. But I need a new brush to scrub the bore. What do you think?
I cleaned the bore. 10x patches on a jag with Shooter's Choice. Ran a bronze brush 50x. More SC. Then a few patches of carb cleaner. My .17cal bronze brush seems to have gotten skinnier since I used it last and didn't do much of anything. I'll have to order a new brush, nobody carries them around here.
Next I ran about 60x patches with Sweet's 7.62, at least 30 seconds apart, some a minute or more. Never had that many blue patches before in any rifle, let alone this 17Rem. These are the Sweet's patches, in order top to bottom L to R. It's not perfectly clean, but I was impatient to see if it really was copper buildup causing the keyholing.
Took it out for a spin. 100 yards, elevated position, slight breeze R to L, no obstructions of any kind. My "good" hunting load using 25gr Hornady HP, 24.7gr IMR 4320, CCI BR4, coal 2.165".
Target looked like this when I was done. 16 rounds fired.
Now let's break it down:
Loaded 5 in the mag. Group A: First 2 "fouling" shots were at the tip of this piece of tape. Yes! Looks like my problem is solved...
Waited 5 minutes and then shot the other three rounds into Group B. Hmm, some vertical spread there... It was NOT me. I waited a few minutes and then reloaded 5 rounds into the mag and fired Group C, fist two shots in the same hole, ok getting better.
I had two shots left in the mag so I adjusted the elevation down and then fired Group D. Ok, now we're talking!
I had fired TEN shots so far from a pretty clean bore. Not perfectly clean but getting there. I waited about ten minutes and then fired Group E. Are you kidding me?!
On the bright side, that was the best group I've fired in a while from this rifle, cockeyed bullets and all. F it, I'd kinda like to see what this load does to a coyote!
So I loaded three rounds with bullets from a different lot, just to make sure it was not a bad lot. Oh suck!
The bullets started tumbling after about 12 shots. I only fired 16 total. The load was my original "good" hunting load that has shot well before and killed stuff out to 385 yards so far.
Still think my problem is copper buildup? I know I did not clean the bore 100% yet. But I need a new brush to scrub the bore. What do you think?
Hi,
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is to take the rifle to a competent gunsmith and have him look it over. Whatever the problem is a gunsmith will give you a reference point and some credibility should it be a warranty issue. Best of luck. I'm very curious as I own a 17 Remington CZ. With the photo's you have I think a gunsmith will be very curious as well, probably not alot of $$$ for a look see.
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is to take the rifle to a competent gunsmith and have him look it over. Whatever the problem is a gunsmith will give you a reference point and some credibility should it be a warranty issue. Best of luck. I'm very curious as I own a 17 Remington CZ. With the photo's you have I think a gunsmith will be very curious as well, probably not alot of $$$ for a look see.
Last edited:
doggin coyotes
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGAlso why is every single keyhole a "perfect" profile of the bullet? You'd think some would be barely rotated, some rotated 90 degrees, etc. But they all look the same.
What I find strangest of all is they hit the target and are that close to point of aim.
I will say your tumbling bullets are very accurate.
They would probably even shoot some lights out. If the tumbling bullets did their part of course.
What I find strangest of all is they hit the target and are that close to point of aim.
I will say your tumbling bullets are very accurate.
They would probably even shoot some lights out. If the tumbling bullets did their part of course.
justin10mm
New member
Here is a wild idea.
You say your regular cleaning routine had been working well for this rifle so far. The rifle shot fine one day, then you cleaned it, but used a foaming bore cleaner for the first time and the gun started key holing the next day. You say you let the bore cleaner sit in the barrel over night for the first time, I'm assuming with the rifle horizontal in a cradle.
Is it possible that the foaming bore cleaner settled to the bottom of the rifle's bore and removed fouling from the bottom but not the top of the bore? If the barrel is only half way fouled along it's length, that could explain why the bullets are tumbling but still seem to hit were they are aimed.
At least that is my best guess.
You say your regular cleaning routine had been working well for this rifle so far. The rifle shot fine one day, then you cleaned it, but used a foaming bore cleaner for the first time and the gun started key holing the next day. You say you let the bore cleaner sit in the barrel over night for the first time, I'm assuming with the rifle horizontal in a cradle.
Is it possible that the foaming bore cleaner settled to the bottom of the rifle's bore and removed fouling from the bottom but not the top of the bore? If the barrel is only half way fouled along it's length, that could explain why the bullets are tumbling but still seem to hit were they are aimed.
At least that is my best guess.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGAlso why is every single keyhole a "perfect" profile of the bullet? You'd think some would be barely rotated, some rotated 90 degrees, etc. But they all look the same.
The transition from stable to unstable is almost instantaneous.. it is not slow or gradual.
The bullet's preferred mode of travel is sideways, and it will assume that position, given any opportunity or excuse.
The transition from stable to unstable is almost instantaneous.. it is not slow or gradual.
The bullet's preferred mode of travel is sideways, and it will assume that position, given any opportunity or excuse.
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: deflaveI gotta say, some of the ideas getting tossed around on here are GD hilarious.
Travis
You got that right...
+100
I started off with two of the first 17 Remingtons in the Sako Vixen's in the early 70's. My load was 24.0g of IMR 4320 with a 25g Rem hp(no longer available) with a Rem 7 1/2 primer. On both rifles, the shot strings were limited to about 25 shots before a serious de coppering was absolutely necessary, keyholes were the first indication along with bullets not even hitting a 36"x36" target backer at 100 yards.
Then I went to Rem 700's, and got to extend my shooting strings to about 50 rounds with the same load if I were lucky on that rifle. At that time I was shooting a max load of Win 760 with a 25g Rem hp. Then I went to the 17 Mach 4, glory, what a revolution in accuracy and cleaning intervals with SS shilen barrels. Went back to the 17 Rem shooting p. dogs. I shot them till the bullets started hitting the ground 50 yards from my shooting bench...time to clean...
I learned two important facts, the value of brushing with JB compound to take the fouling out completely, the use of good bronze bristle brushes.
Next, I changed to 21.5-22.5g of H322 or AA2015 with the 25g Bullets(dropped the speed from 4100 to 3850 fps).
Forget 20g bullets, they are like trying to fix a bad wife.
You are doing the correct thing in using a vld chamfering tool, put a deep chamfer on at that. Annealing after every firing is not needed. THat is not much powder fouling on your neck, not to worry.
Chamber in your rifle is HUGE, Neck size if you can get away with it to save brass life.
Primers look fine to me, always use a thick cup primer.
The most important tip that I can give you is to buy every Berger 25g Match HP you can get your hands on, and every custom bullet that uses the J4 Jacket...they are disappearing quickly since J4 discontinued making this Jacket. Bullets made on J4 jackets copper foul MUCH less than bullets of other makes.
JB, Good bronze bristle brushes, and for a copper solvent, Montana Extreme copper killer rules the day...I have them all.
Obviously, soaking is not getting the job done! (HINT)
I wanted to tell you that it is not uncommon for guys that use 4320 to have your issues due to 4100-4200 fps with the 52's...HELLO!!!!!
By the way, a brand new bronze bristle brush from Sinclair is good for 80 strokes, they it is only good for using as a JB brush...learn to buy them by the dozen, and to throw them away often.
Good luck
Travis
You got that right...
+100
I started off with two of the first 17 Remingtons in the Sako Vixen's in the early 70's. My load was 24.0g of IMR 4320 with a 25g Rem hp(no longer available) with a Rem 7 1/2 primer. On both rifles, the shot strings were limited to about 25 shots before a serious de coppering was absolutely necessary, keyholes were the first indication along with bullets not even hitting a 36"x36" target backer at 100 yards.
Then I went to Rem 700's, and got to extend my shooting strings to about 50 rounds with the same load if I were lucky on that rifle. At that time I was shooting a max load of Win 760 with a 25g Rem hp. Then I went to the 17 Mach 4, glory, what a revolution in accuracy and cleaning intervals with SS shilen barrels. Went back to the 17 Rem shooting p. dogs. I shot them till the bullets started hitting the ground 50 yards from my shooting bench...time to clean...
I learned two important facts, the value of brushing with JB compound to take the fouling out completely, the use of good bronze bristle brushes.
Next, I changed to 21.5-22.5g of H322 or AA2015 with the 25g Bullets(dropped the speed from 4100 to 3850 fps).
Forget 20g bullets, they are like trying to fix a bad wife.
You are doing the correct thing in using a vld chamfering tool, put a deep chamfer on at that. Annealing after every firing is not needed. THat is not much powder fouling on your neck, not to worry.
Chamber in your rifle is HUGE, Neck size if you can get away with it to save brass life.
Primers look fine to me, always use a thick cup primer.
The most important tip that I can give you is to buy every Berger 25g Match HP you can get your hands on, and every custom bullet that uses the J4 Jacket...they are disappearing quickly since J4 discontinued making this Jacket. Bullets made on J4 jackets copper foul MUCH less than bullets of other makes.
JB, Good bronze bristle brushes, and for a copper solvent, Montana Extreme copper killer rules the day...I have them all.
Obviously, soaking is not getting the job done! (HINT)
I wanted to tell you that it is not uncommon for guys that use 4320 to have your issues due to 4100-4200 fps with the 52's...HELLO!!!!!
By the way, a brand new bronze bristle brush from Sinclair is good for 80 strokes, they it is only good for using as a JB brush...learn to buy them by the dozen, and to throw them away often.
Good luck
Last edited:
I really like CatShooter's 'chamber plug and fill the bore with Hoppe's 9' method. Just try not to gag at the black/blue muck you will be pushing out in the morning.
As stated by Ackley, the bronze brushes only last so long. Especially when use with aggressive solvents. I think you proved the bore is copper plated by now and needs more cleaning.
Get a chamber plug, a bottle of Hoppe's 9 and some more brushes. Lather, rinse, repeat, as necessary.
As stated by Ackley, the bronze brushes only last so long. Especially when use with aggressive solvents. I think you proved the bore is copper plated by now and needs more cleaning.
Get a chamber plug, a bottle of Hoppe's 9 and some more brushes. Lather, rinse, repeat, as necessary.
Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable will weigh in but if I'm correct you can also use the nylon bore brushes with the .17 caliber. With the bronze brushes and a copper cleaning solvent you will always get the nice blue tint on the patches because the solvent acts on the brush bristles too. Just a thought if you are using the patches as an indicator during cleaning. Still waiting to see what a 'smith says!!!
EJ Reichenbach
New member
Originally Posted By: deflaveI would be real curious to see if Dyna Bore Coat could salvage this tube though.
Travis
Kind of my thoughts, is he gonna have to clean it every 20 rounds.
Travis
Kind of my thoughts, is he gonna have to clean it every 20 rounds.
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
I will junk it before I clean it every 20 rounds. No thanks!
I ordered a chamber plug, more brushes, and Montana Extreme to try a deep cleaning. If that doesn't fix it, I will be purchasing a new barrel, perhaps in a different caliber, and get rid of my 17Rem stash of bullets n powder.
I ordered a chamber plug, more brushes, and Montana Extreme to try a deep cleaning. If that doesn't fix it, I will be purchasing a new barrel, perhaps in a different caliber, and get rid of my 17Rem stash of bullets n powder.
EJ Reichenbach
New member
Originally Posted By: deflaveDouble dibs...
Travis
Lol just like a bunch of sharks.
Travis
Lol just like a bunch of sharks.