Vmax woes
- Thread starter kswaterfowl
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kswaterfowl
New member
I say aim for the shoulder, but I actually shoot right above the shoulder. Usually it's a small hole in and no exit, or small hole in and small hole out.
1trkyhntr
Well-known member
I don't know what is going wrong with 55gr Hornady Vmax. That is all I use. Up until last year I had very few runners. Now it seem like most do. The last 3 I've shot have run, recovered 1 at about 75 yards, the other 2 got into cover and were lost. Just tonight I shot a coyote at maybe 50-60 yards straight on in the chest. He spun a few times then started running. I continued to shoot at him, I saw impact at least once more through the thermal and he kept going. I shot until I was empty. I then had to watch him drag/stagger/sit a few yards at a time until he got into the woods. I could see his guts hanging out with my thermal. I never did find him.
Yotarunner
Custom Call Maker
Originally Posted By: 1trkyhntrI don't know what is going wrong with 55gr Hornady Vmax. That is all I use. Up until last year I had very few runners. Now it seem like most do. The last 3 I've shot have run, recovered 1 at about 75 yards, the other 2 got into cover and were lost. Just tonight I shot a coyote at maybe 50-60 yards straight on in the chest. He spun a few times then started running. I continued to shoot at him, I saw impact at least once more through the thermal and he kept going. I shot until I was empty. I then had to watch him drag/stagger/sit a few yards at a time until he got into the woods. I could see his guts hanging out with my thermal. I never did find him.
i wonder if hornady changed something in the Vmax because last year i saw the exact same thing happen. coyotes that should have been DRT were taking a long time to expire
i wonder if hornady changed something in the Vmax because last year i saw the exact same thing happen. coyotes that should have been DRT were taking a long time to expire
wolftrapper
New member
Originally Posted By: Troy GFor those that are suggesting shoulder shots, are you harvesting fur or just killing coyotes? Just asking.
Yes, I am harvesting fur...no exit, and no coyote lost in brush.
Yes, I am harvesting fur...no exit, and no coyote lost in brush.
Originally Posted By: kswaterfowlI always tell people to shoot for the shoulder. But anyone that has called coyotes for very long knows that it doesn't always work out that way. I have shot hundreds of coyotes with nosler bullets, and never had them splash that bad.
I agree. Glad you looked at shot placement first, but there is something different about this generation of Vmax's. Lots of guys act like they have a personal stake in the Vmax, I don't. I used them with a lot of success for many years out of my 16in .223, no complaints. Even if I made a less than ideal hit.
Then we started seeing runners. We also wrote it off to bad shot placement. But they continued even with good shot placements. I am talking about dead center chest hits within 100 yards. Like you said, they would go down, then get up and go. Then we started seeing the same thing with the .204 ruger. Went from DRT one hit wonders to spinning runners. So we switched to the SP's in both calibers, and went back to DRT's.
Out of curiosity, we started weighing the Vmax's and found a large variance from bullet to bullet. Having shot in long range competitions I know that variances that large can account for not only accuracy variances but also ballistic variances. We saw it show up on paper with groups that were looser than we were used to getting. I am also not sure that I agree with Hornady's theory of faster=better in their Superformance series. I think that there is a balance that must be struck between velocity and the depth that the bullet reaches before it reaches maximum expansion.
But the proof is in the fur. I don't get runners with the SP's whether they are Hornady or Nosler SP's.
I agree. Glad you looked at shot placement first, but there is something different about this generation of Vmax's. Lots of guys act like they have a personal stake in the Vmax, I don't. I used them with a lot of success for many years out of my 16in .223, no complaints. Even if I made a less than ideal hit.
Then we started seeing runners. We also wrote it off to bad shot placement. But they continued even with good shot placements. I am talking about dead center chest hits within 100 yards. Like you said, they would go down, then get up and go. Then we started seeing the same thing with the .204 ruger. Went from DRT one hit wonders to spinning runners. So we switched to the SP's in both calibers, and went back to DRT's.
Out of curiosity, we started weighing the Vmax's and found a large variance from bullet to bullet. Having shot in long range competitions I know that variances that large can account for not only accuracy variances but also ballistic variances. We saw it show up on paper with groups that were looser than we were used to getting. I am also not sure that I agree with Hornady's theory of faster=better in their Superformance series. I think that there is a balance that must be struck between velocity and the depth that the bullet reaches before it reaches maximum expansion.
But the proof is in the fur. I don't get runners with the SP's whether they are Hornady or Nosler SP's.
K-22hornet.
New member
I've had enough splash wounds over the years with the 22cal. Vmax, that I have stopped using them, except in my son's 223wssm, where we use the 60gr Vmax at 3,700fps. It is scary accurate, and hits hard enough we don't get spinners or runners. Instead, once in awhile, we get one to stand back up, but they don't go anywhere.
In my 243, the 75gr Vmax has been stellar, from 20yds out to a bit over 400yds. The first 33-34 coyotes I shot with that load had no exits, no fur damage. The first one with fur damage was, shall we say, extreme. In most cases, this Vmax does not exit.
The opposite happened with the Nosler Btip. In 22cal, they perform great, no splashes. In the 243, the 55gr Btip gave me more runners and floppers than anything else, enough that I stopped using them in the 243.
In my 243, the 75gr Vmax has been stellar, from 20yds out to a bit over 400yds. The first 33-34 coyotes I shot with that load had no exits, no fur damage. The first one with fur damage was, shall we say, extreme. In most cases, this Vmax does not exit.
The opposite happened with the Nosler Btip. In 22cal, they perform great, no splashes. In the 243, the 55gr Btip gave me more runners and floppers than anything else, enough that I stopped using them in the 243.
tripod3
New member
I love bullet threads as they go forever and usually take a few wrong turns.
Vmax has accounted for a lot of kills for me (50gr) because they shoot accurately. They have also accounted for the most splashes with some being spectacular.
One coyote looked nearly skinned and the farmer commented "that's only a 50 grain bullet!"
A coyote shot in the back was skinned from hips to shoulders, after running 100 yds he just stood there like a kid with a bad haircut.
These are mostly with .22-250. With .223 I get more spinner/runners.
Personally I don't really care for this performance. After hearing of possible jacket changes as a theory I wonder if it is possibly a harder metal makeup.
Who knows, it is a known factor when using them.
Never any problems with the NBT and am currently looking for a best load 50 gr for .22-250.
Vmax has accounted for a lot of kills for me (50gr) because they shoot accurately. They have also accounted for the most splashes with some being spectacular.
One coyote looked nearly skinned and the farmer commented "that's only a 50 grain bullet!"
A coyote shot in the back was skinned from hips to shoulders, after running 100 yds he just stood there like a kid with a bad haircut.
These are mostly with .22-250. With .223 I get more spinner/runners.
Personally I don't really care for this performance. After hearing of possible jacket changes as a theory I wonder if it is possibly a harder metal makeup.
Who knows, it is a known factor when using them.
Never any problems with the NBT and am currently looking for a best load 50 gr for .22-250.
Robinhood21
Member
Originally Posted By: btech29Vmax out of a 223 equals lost coyotes.
55 vmax is all I shoot out of my main calling rig and have never lost a dog. The only time I've had to put another in one was a bad shot on my part.
55 vmax is all I shoot out of my main calling rig and have never lost a dog. The only time I've had to put another in one was a bad shot on my part.
Originally Posted By: HellgateSnowmanMo & others,
Are/were you getting spinners/runners with the 60gr Vmaxs? Were your bullets splashing or failing to open up? I can sure see failures with high speed light bullets but the heavier ones should punch through shoulders. I’m talking .223.
What a bullet "should" do and what it IS doing are two different things. In my response I stated that I killed a lot of coyotes with the .223 Vmax's. I used 53, 55 and 60gr in both factory and handloads. Then something changed. We started getting runners. In my response I stated that it didn't matter whether it was a dead on chest hit or any other kind of hit, we were getting runners. I used the example of the failures of the .204 because it seems to be a problem with the current design or construction of the bullet and not the caliber/velocity.
I don't know why a dead on chest hit with a light fast bullet resulting in a runner and would be acceptable or understandable. It's not to me. Like Tripod said, it happens and that's what matters to me and it's unacceptable. Personally, I like dead on chest shots or quartering away breadbasket hits. I don't try to hit shoulders. Sure it happens from time to time, but I don't try to do that.
As for what is happening, most of the time with runners, they get away, hence the reason we have to have these theoretical discussions.
I know that when I used to hit them with a Vmax, they sounded like a bag of slushy ice when I picked them up. The internal damage was impressive, and we had few take more than one hit. We also did not see big exit wounds, maybe just a chunk of jacket go through.
Tripod might be on to something about the metallurgy of the jacket. I just noticed a broad weight variance in the bullets that I have recently bought.
Like Tripod also said, discussions like this can go on and on, endlessly. Like the best bullet for defense, best car, best quarterback, best restaurant...LOL!
Are/were you getting spinners/runners with the 60gr Vmaxs? Were your bullets splashing or failing to open up? I can sure see failures with high speed light bullets but the heavier ones should punch through shoulders. I’m talking .223.
What a bullet "should" do and what it IS doing are two different things. In my response I stated that I killed a lot of coyotes with the .223 Vmax's. I used 53, 55 and 60gr in both factory and handloads. Then something changed. We started getting runners. In my response I stated that it didn't matter whether it was a dead on chest hit or any other kind of hit, we were getting runners. I used the example of the failures of the .204 because it seems to be a problem with the current design or construction of the bullet and not the caliber/velocity.
I don't know why a dead on chest hit with a light fast bullet resulting in a runner and would be acceptable or understandable. It's not to me. Like Tripod said, it happens and that's what matters to me and it's unacceptable. Personally, I like dead on chest shots or quartering away breadbasket hits. I don't try to hit shoulders. Sure it happens from time to time, but I don't try to do that.
As for what is happening, most of the time with runners, they get away, hence the reason we have to have these theoretical discussions.
I know that when I used to hit them with a Vmax, they sounded like a bag of slushy ice when I picked them up. The internal damage was impressive, and we had few take more than one hit. We also did not see big exit wounds, maybe just a chunk of jacket go through.
Tripod might be on to something about the metallurgy of the jacket. I just noticed a broad weight variance in the bullets that I have recently bought.
Like Tripod also said, discussions like this can go on and on, endlessly. Like the best bullet for defense, best car, best quarterback, best restaurant...LOL!
not getting married to a single bullet is a good thing. Be open. Try different bullets.
You have to shoot a number of coyotes from different angles, distances, coming and going, quartering shots to evaluate a bullet
Thinking of only shooting a standing coyote on a broadside shot is lunacy at best.
You have to shoot a number of coyotes from different angles, distances, coming and going, quartering shots to evaluate a bullet
Thinking of only shooting a standing coyote on a broadside shot is lunacy at best.
1trkyhntr
Well-known member
I've tried the Hornady "match" American Gunner 55gr hp's, they are just as bad if not worse than the Vmaxs. I just ordered a box of Hornady 55gr soft point's to try. I'm hoping that they will give better results.
I know that sometimes I make a bad shot but to see runner after runner is hard to take.
I know that sometimes I make a bad shot but to see runner after runner is hard to take.
55g Hornady SP with the cannalure are great performers in my experience, never a surface explosion, good penetration on quartering shots.
I shot these for quite a while, bought a case of 6000. I was surprised at how uniform the bullets were made when measuring from ogive to base of bullet.
24.5g of Benchmark with a cci 400 shot very tiny groups in my brothers bushmaster varmint, 20" with bull barrel, so did his Bushmaster with 24" barrel, both had 9" twists.
For you guys that like to "play", I would encourage you to try some Sierra 55g lead tip blitz, but it will NOT be fur friendly. ON the other hand, it will look like it has been shot with a 30/06!
I shot these for quite a while, bought a case of 6000. I was surprised at how uniform the bullets were made when measuring from ogive to base of bullet.
24.5g of Benchmark with a cci 400 shot very tiny groups in my brothers bushmaster varmint, 20" with bull barrel, so did his Bushmaster with 24" barrel, both had 9" twists.
For you guys that like to "play", I would encourage you to try some Sierra 55g lead tip blitz, but it will NOT be fur friendly. ON the other hand, it will look like it has been shot with a 30/06!
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Bail
New member
Originally Posted By: Robinhood21Originally Posted By: btech29Vmax out of a 223 equals lost coyotes.
55 vmax is all I shoot out of my main calling rig and have never lost a dog. The only time I've had to put another in one was a bad shot on my part.
Then you haven't shot enough of them.
55 vmax is all I shoot out of my main calling rig and have never lost a dog. The only time I've had to put another in one was a bad shot on my part.
Then you haven't shot enough of them.
WeaselCircus
New member
Originally Posted By: SnowmanMoI agree. Glad you looked at shot placement first, but there is something different about this generation of Vmax's.
Wouldn't surprise me if something was changed in the bullets that wasn't disclosed to the public. In my line of work I've seen products or portions of products get altered by either a manufacturer or by suppliers to manufacturers that wasn't disclosed to us or to the public until new problems arose that hadn't been there before. Have had to do some backtracking / investigating and only then found out that some chemical compound was changed, or some "insignificant" material was left out during manufacturing - usually because it was assumed it wouldn't matter and it would save money. Have no idea if that happened with vmax, but something like that could happen.
Wouldn't surprise me if something was changed in the bullets that wasn't disclosed to the public. In my line of work I've seen products or portions of products get altered by either a manufacturer or by suppliers to manufacturers that wasn't disclosed to us or to the public until new problems arose that hadn't been there before. Have had to do some backtracking / investigating and only then found out that some chemical compound was changed, or some "insignificant" material was left out during manufacturing - usually because it was assumed it wouldn't matter and it would save money. Have no idea if that happened with vmax, but something like that could happen.
A few years ago I was shooting 40vmaxes out of my 22-250. I was using an old box of 250 from the early 2000s. Zero issues, every dog was DRT with no fur damage. When I ran out I bought another box of current production bullets. I had a lot of splashes and lost coyotes. Maybe the rifling got rough and caused jacket damage..either way, I stopped using it.
I have just never been impressed with .22 Vmax for coyote (6mm, little different story). Killed a few dozen coyote with the 55 Vmax out of a .22-250 when they first came out, decided they sucked and relegated them to varmint poppage duty. Later, about 20 years ago, tried them again in a .223, killed about one dozen, even less impressed. That was pretty much the end of me using the Vmax for coyote.
Have witnessed maybe about a hundred coyote total shot with the .22 Vmax, including my own. I know a lot of guys have a lot of luck and a lot of good to say, but for myself, truly, the most consistently bad .22 coyote bullet I have any personal experience with is the Vmax. Be the last bullet on my shelf I'd choose for coyote. Would take the B-tip over it all day every day, and in fact, that's what I'm using in a .223 this year. Not overly impressed with that combo either, but close to 40 coyotes the last two months and not a splash yet so I'm going to stick with it.
But I haven't used the Vmax in 20 years except for a few occasions shooting borrowed/sponsor guns/sponsor ammo. If they have gotten even worse since then, well...
But for varmint poppage, they were then and still are awesome. They were a lot cheaper than B-tips back in the day too. I have used over 20,000 .22 Vmax on colony varmints. I don't do much of that type of shooting anymore, but still use mostly Vmax when I do. I totally avoid them for coyote duty though. Have been avoiding them for a long time.
Just me.
- DAA
Have witnessed maybe about a hundred coyote total shot with the .22 Vmax, including my own. I know a lot of guys have a lot of luck and a lot of good to say, but for myself, truly, the most consistently bad .22 coyote bullet I have any personal experience with is the Vmax. Be the last bullet on my shelf I'd choose for coyote. Would take the B-tip over it all day every day, and in fact, that's what I'm using in a .223 this year. Not overly impressed with that combo either, but close to 40 coyotes the last two months and not a splash yet so I'm going to stick with it.
But I haven't used the Vmax in 20 years except for a few occasions shooting borrowed/sponsor guns/sponsor ammo. If they have gotten even worse since then, well...
But for varmint poppage, they were then and still are awesome. They were a lot cheaper than B-tips back in the day too. I have used over 20,000 .22 Vmax on colony varmints. I don't do much of that type of shooting anymore, but still use mostly Vmax when I do. I totally avoid them for coyote duty though. Have been avoiding them for a long time.
Just me.
- DAA