Vmax woes

Just realized, the 55 Vmax I still have a considerable supply of on the shelf, are at least 20 years old. Bought a giant pile of them off a friend getting out of the hobby that long ago, at give away prices (think I paid $50 a thousand for them). Still have quite a few left, but using them for varmint popping in the AR is making them steadily go away.

But, so I'm still rocking the "Good Ones"
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. I think they suck for coyote though.

- DAA
 
I have said this repeatedly, but I have never lost a coyote or a cat with the 50gr VMax from .223 Ackley at about 3500fps. I fully realize that my experiences dont seem to mimic that of others, but based on them, I have no intention of changing.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymannot getting married to a single bullet is a good thing. Be open. Try different bullets.

You have to shoot a number of coyotes from different angles, distances, coming and going, quartering shots to evaluate a bullet

Thinking of only shooting a standing coyote on a broadside shot is lunacy at best.

So true. You have to give different things a try. Even when you find something that works, there is nothing that says it will work forever. Just like coyotes, we have to be adaptable.

Originally Posted By: liliysdadI have said this repeatedly, but I have never lost a coyote or a cat with the 50gr VMax from .223 Ackley at about 3500fps. I fully realize that my experiences dont seem to mimic that of others, but based on them, I have no intention of changing.

I wouldn't think of telling someone to change something that works for them. I gave that up a long time ago in competitive shooting.

It is good for everyone to get together and share experiences. You never know when someone might come up with a new solution to try.

That's what I love about this forum and this community.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymannot getting married to a single bullet is a good thing. Be open. Try different bullets.



This is a neat idea, but not always practical. I have rifles that simply dont have the barrel life to experiment with different bullets, loads, etc. Find one that shoots fast and accurate, and roll with it.

In my .223s, however, your theory is spot on.
 
That's weird you mentioned the 50 gr vmax. Because that's all my buddy shot last year out of his 20" AR, and he never had a problem with runners or splashing. You wouldn't think going from a 50gr vmax to a 53 gr vmax would make a big difference.
 
Originally Posted By: kswaterfowlThat's weird you mentioned the 50 gr vmax. Because that's all my buddy shot last year out of his 20" AR, and he never had a problem with runners or splashing. You wouldn't think going from a 50gr vmax to a 53 gr vmax would make a big difference.

Maybe Hornaday made a change to the wall thickness between the 50 and 53gr Vmax?

I use the Barnes 45gr XLC in my Hornet for coyotes. They work, and they work very well.

Anyway, I had a load all worked up for these, and then saw Barnes was discontinuing the XLC, so I bought several hundred of them from various sources.

After dipping into my new supply of these, my accuracy became inconsistent. After checking all the normal stuff, I focused on the bullets themselves, and found that Barnes changed the ogive slightly, resulting in a longer bullet compared to the ones I had a load for.

Both lengths shoot about the same for accuracy, but there is a slight POI change.
 
All the V max bullets have thin jackets for a super quick expanding bullet, results will vary.

A long time ago, I shot the 75g Hornady HP in my 243. All of a sudden, they started shooting holes through the coyote and then never even felt the bullet impact. They have changed that bullet since.

Sierra quality is as consistent as the rising sun.

Here is the explanation, thin jacket, poly tip, hollow cavity behind the poly tip equals very, very fast expanding and exploding bullet, throw the Sierra Blitz kings in this explanation also.

Nosler ballistic tips are much tougher than V max due the jacket construction of the Noslers.

The bullet is the cheapest part of the hunt. Do you have complete confidence that your chosen bullet will penetrate through the hip joint on a running away shot, solid shoulder shot, or high rib shot?

All the Sierra 55's that are not blitz kings will do the above and the 55g noslers will break bone and penetrate in spades!

60g V max is where I would be to ensure a solid kill....heavy for caliber V max.

For you guys that like to shoot a fast bullet in a short barrel, then the 50g sierra spt is a high velocity bullet that will take the torque of the faster twists, this bullet will penetrate and give great expansion. I shot these in a Swift at 4000 fps and they never failed on coyotes.

Please don't get stuck on a poly tip bullet.

We killed a lot of coyotes with a 223 at 3800 fps plus using Sierra 45g spt that is a high velocity spt made for being shot in a swift, they are super accurate. Marketing has duped a lot of people.

 
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You have made it obvious that you are averse to modern trends, such as fast twists, high BC bullets, and polymer tips. I can only speak from experience, but I have had much, much better luck with all of the above, and see no reason to revert to old tech.
 
Several years back my buddies son figured the V-max was the bomb for his new 22-250. Maybe the cool plastic tip looked good, I dunno.

We chased several coyotes for several miles that winter when some of those bullets splashed on hip or shoulder bones. Very ugly superficial wounds... Not so with the 52 gr. BT HP I've called my favorite for 25 years...they don't fall apart, they break bones and get in there.

Thank God that kid can walk all day long lol.
 
Originally Posted By: liliysdadYou have made it obvious that you are averse to modern trends, such as fast twists, high BC bullets, and polymer tips. I can only speak from experience, but I have had much, much better luck with all of the above, and see no reason to revert to old tech.

By your own words, you have killed not more than 50 coyotes with the Vmax.

You ain't qualified to pop a pimple on his neck.

- DAA
 
I have shot a few coyotes with the vmax this fall; just enough to know I am not going to shoot any more. I got 5 outta 6 killed, but the one that got away was facing dead on at about 75 yards and dropped like it was supposed to, but somehow managed to recover enough to get up and run off. Looked for quite a while with no luck. Puddles of blood and pee, and a pile of poop where it dropped. Looked to be a pretty nice coyote to boot. Was using fiochi factory stuff with the 50 vmax. Another thing that turned me off was what I saw skinning them, not enough penetration in my book. Those loads do work some magic on prairie dogs though, and are plenty accurate.
 
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What, if any, difference have you guys noticed with faster vs slower twist rates relating to bullet expansion?

Me personally, I haven't shot enough coyotes with any given bullet to really judge it. I can say I've shot exactly ZERO with a 22 vmax. I've been using 6mm 87 gr vmax at 3k fps for a couple years, and so far nothing moves far when hit with that one.
 
Just shooting prairie dogs I can tell a significant difference in what 'I think' is performance due to twist rate. The tighter twists seem to cause the bullets to come apart more violently. I have had the chance to shoot the same load from guns with different twists. I didn't run the loads through the chrony, but the longer barrel had the slower twist, so in theory should have had a velocity advantage. The shorter, faster twist barrel seemed to cause more terminal damage. More 'lift' on impact, and more pieces thrown further from the carcass. Nothing scientific at all, just my observations in the field. Seems like the slower twist was a 12 and the faster an 8, could have been a 9. Both those barrels shot very well, but have been used up in the dog towns.

It does lead me to question if the more violent expansion leads to less to penetration, though.
 
Its always interesting to get into the vmax discussion. its pretty revealing who has and has not shot coyotes or shot them in large numbers dispite their claims. No one wants to admit its "not that many" a while back I posted a picture of sectioned bullets I ground in half. its very very simple to see why the vmax isn't a good choice. its got a paper thin jacket!! its got the thinnest jacket of any bullet I had on hand to check. The last vmaxs I tried were 53 grain from the superformance factory loads. they ran 3250 ish from my gun. They would splash on facing chest shots. I think that was around the time I started really looking at how the different bullets are made, because the big 3 makes them all very differently. in 22 caliber for instance sierra gernerally uses a very heavy jacket, its twice the thickness of a vmax jacket. heck I think they use 243 jackets and draw them down.

hornady is very thin and explosive. Nosler has a thinish jacket, still thicker than a vmax and has a solid copper base, that chunk of copper in the back is pretty handy for driving through stuff. Probably my first choice in coyote bullets is a nosler btip, BUT for some reason I can't get them to shoot in any AR 15 I have every tried. That is 5 different 223 barrels and one 6mm barrel. I have no idea why, but everytime I want to use the btips I get flyers with them. The black box tipped varmint load federal makes shoots good but it barely breaks 3 grand from a 20" ar 15.

If you have not shot around 30 coyotes with a load you really can't know what its doing. if you want to stick with one brand sierra has you covered in 22 caliber. use the soft points at 22-250 speeds, use the blitzkings for AR 15's and 223's.

just my opinions and I still can't say if the 55 grain blitzkings in 6mm are a decent coyote bullet at the speeds I am running them at. I haven't shot enough coyotes with it........yet.
 
Originally Posted By: 204 ARWhat, if any, difference have you guys noticed with faster vs slower twist rates relating to bullet expansion?

Me personally, I haven't shot enough coyotes with any given bullet to really judge it. I can say I've shot exactly ZERO with a 22 vmax. I've been using 6mm 87 gr vmax at 3k fps for a couple years, and so far nothing moves far when hit with that one.


I think you are asking and making a very good observation. I don't think that there is any ONE magic bullet. Different bullets coupled with different velocities and twist rates all seem to change the results. For some guys, dead is dead, end of story. For me, even when they dropped, I would open them up and take a look at internal damage, bullet expansion, depth of penetration, so that I could make better, more informed decisions.

Originally Posted By: obaroJust shooting prairie dogs I can tell a significant difference in what 'I think' is performance due to twist rate. The tighter twists seem to cause the bullets to come apart more violently. I have had the chance to shoot the same load from guns with different twists. I didn't run the loads through the chrony, but the longer barrel had the slower twist, so in theory should have had a velocity advantage. The shorter, faster twist barrel seemed to cause more terminal damage. More 'lift' on impact, and more pieces thrown further from the carcass. Nothing scientific at all, just my observations in the field. Seems like the slower twist was a 12 and the faster an 8, could have been a 9. Both those barrels shot very well, but have been used up in the dog towns.

It does lead me to question if the more violent expansion leads to less to penetration, though.

I think that Obaro and Steve make some great points. I have wondered about the thin jacket causing inconsistent expansion. On some, it seems to explode spectacularly on impact while on others it seemed to zip right through. I wonder if some of the tips blow open like they are supposed to while others deform inward and become FMJ's for all intents and purposes. Might explain some of the inconsistencies we see.

For me and my partners we spent a lot of time trying to find a combination that would work dropping coyotes in their tracks. But int he winter, we hunt fur, foxes and bobcats, which have much thinner pelts where pelt damage was an issue. What we figured out, at least in our results, was that there was fine line between depth of penetration, speed of expansion, bullet design and velocity. For example, we tested the .17 Remington. With a BT bullet, we got a LOT of pelt damage. Yes, it killed them, but it was ugly. But slower BT's resulted in runners. When we went to HP's, we were getting one hole wonders with spectacular terminal results and no fur damage. It seems that you need to get the bullet into the muscle BEFORE it expands. But once it starts expanding you need that to be rather explosive. Slow expansion resulted in runners.

Some calibers seem to change the expansion characteristics in some bullets. My hunch is that weight and velocity along with the diameter of the bullet play the biggest part in that recipe.

Originally Posted By: liliysdadYou have made it obvious that you are averse to modern trends, such as fast twists, high BC bullets, and polymer tips. I can only speak from experience, but I have had much, much better luck with all of the above, and see no reason to revert to old tech.

Not at all. I have run 17 Remingtons, .204 Rugers, .223 Rem, 6.5 Grendel, .308 win and 12 gauges for all kinds of different varmints. I have used Tungsten loads, Vmax, SST, HP's, SP's, Steel shot, lead shot, copper plated lead shot, in a variety of platforms from single shot breech loaders, pumps, bolts, levers and semi-auto platforms. I have run suppressed and un-suppressed. I have to. I build firearms for a lot of different people and I need to know what works and what doesn't. Just because a bullet worked at one time, doesn't mean that it will work forever. Hornady itself realized that they were having issues with the Vmax poly tip so they changed that formula because they found the tip was melting in flight. Don't think that will effect a bullet's flight and terminal characteristics? I do, so does Hornady.

I am fine with trying out new things, but I am also willing to admit when something does or does not work and I don't mind sharing when it does or does not work. That's how our industry progresses.

I am not trying to tell anyone that they need to change away from something that works for them. I am just sharing my results.
 
Originally Posted By: obaro

It does lead me to question if the more violent expansion leads to less to penetration, though.

With the exception of copper/monometal bullets, yes, violent expansion will lead to less penetration.

Expansion increases the front surface area of a bullet, so, kind of like snowshoes, they don't penetrate as deep, and they tend to lose weight, also reducing penetration.

Mono-metal bullets generally don't lose any weight, so you get the penetration.

Take a raw chicken egg and the same size/weight golf ball. If the impact velocity is the same, you have the same Ft.Lbs. of energy delivered on target, but you would have very different results.
 
Quote:Hornady itself realized that they were having issues with the Vmax poly tip so they changed that formula because they found the tip was melting in flight. Don't think that will effect a bullet's flight and terminal characteristics? I do, so does Hornady.


That wasn't really what happened..and the VMax had nothing to do with any of it...but doesn't seem to be worth arguing about. Carry on...I'll keep my new fangled plastic tips.
 
I love to try different bullets which will eventually leade to failures, and from those failures you learn a LOT!

So, don't be afraid to fail! You have to figure out what your failure rate is, 10%, 20% or more.

You figure out what you can live with.

If you are not saving hides, you can experiment with shooting a fresh kill, coyote, by hanging him up on a fence post, shoot a solid hip shot, then a solid shoulder shot...kill has to be fresh. This may sound sick, but in the end it will eliminate bullets that do not kill humanely, which is the sole purpose of a test like this. Examine the carcus to see what happens to the bullet when it contacts solid bone, does the bullet explode, or does it penetrate further?

We learned volumes about bullet failure using this procedure as suggested to me by Bill Davis.
 
I don't have any experience with the Superformance in .223 but I have shot coyotes with the 50gr. Superformance in my 22-250. I just wasn't that impressed. The last one I shot with them was at 70 yards if I remember correctly. A solid hit right to the shoulder and it spun and fell over. I hit one on the run that I never recovered,blew up another ones shoulder and lost it and shot another that I had to shoot twice and she wasn't dead when I walked out there. Having said that I smoked a feral hog right behind the ear with that bullet and it died instantly. So it all depends on where you're hitting things too. They seem to fragment rapidly in the Superformance. Two of my buddies shot a bobcat at the exact same time with 22-250's using 50 grain Superformance and it's neck was severely damaged. Almost nonexistent on one side.

I've seen plenty shot with Superformance in a .243 and have yet to see one get away. But then again it looks like they got hit with a grenade launcher unless they were hit in the chest or running straight away.

Just standard 55grain V-Max have worked fairly good for me as well as 50 grain for the most part. I've never shot one in the back end and not needed a follow up shot with either. I've had pass throughs and coyotes running dead on their feet with every broadside lung shot using the 55's. I've shot through shoulders with the 55 grain V-Max multiple times. And as you'd expect with chest and neck shots I've never had one go anywhere with any bullet including 50 and 55 grain V-Max. I'd say the vast majority of coyotes I kill facing me are hit in the neck or upper chest. I'm not dedicated to one bullet although I am partial to the Hornady 52 grain boat tailed hollowpoint in my .223 for saving fur and consistent kills. I've shot a lot of different bullets and it's basically my go to bullet especially for bobcats.

V-Max in my experience are alright....There's better out there but they'll get the job done. I just choose my shots wisely if I'm shootin them. I think an all around good killing bullet is a 55 grain Softpoint. Hard on fur in a 22-250 but not too bad in a .223 for the most part. In my experience that is. Every coyote and every scenario is different. From what I've gathered the V-Max is good as long as you have a good shot at vitals and you can hit your mark without hitting heavy bone every single time. Which we all know doesn't always work that way.

On a side note I don't see how some of y'all can keep shooting coyotes with a bullet that has left you with wounded coyotes more than a few times. I have 40 rounds to try right now. There's 4 different bullets loaded in those 40 rounds. If I shoot 10 of one kind of bullet and only have 3 coyotes when I send that last one down the barrel due to severe pelt damage or lost coyotes I don't use those bullets anymore. I can't afford to go out there and lose coyotes or blow them up. That's a waste of my time. I dang sure ain't shooting 20 more coyotes just to say I lost half of them and that bullet sucks.
 
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