At the wold taxidermy competition,Europeans compete with hawks,owls and songbirds.They can mount them for customers as well.Here in the land of the free? we can only watch the raptor population grow as our small game and upland bird's suffer.Were I hunted as a kid the hungarian partrige population has all but dissapeared due to hawks and owl's.In 1971 my first paying taxidermy job was a legally shot leagally mounted great horned owl.Then in 1972 a stupid treaty protected them.There is nothing sacred about flying predators.If they get out of hand they should be controlled like any other predator.Protection of wildlife is important,We have been very sucessfull at it and should be proud of our accomplishments.But,going overboard on protection can be just as devastating as none.
Raptors,songbirds and the land of the free?
- Thread starter J.Mark
- Start date
Chris Lynn
New member
J Mark
Your fact about raptors and decline in partridge population is unfounded and reeks of folk lore. The raptors have nothing to do with the decline. It's over grazing and loss of habitat that cause the decline. In another words, the human race...Raptors are opportunist and hunt the weak and the not well. "Raptors" are not fast enough to just sit on a pole and catch a partridge. Your broad stroke of "raptors" and owls is very telling of your knowledge of birds of prey. I am assuming you are speaking of red tailed hawks and great horned owls because the rest of the raptor species are either 2 small to take partridge or they dont sot around so you can observe them. Neither one of them can do enough damage to the population as they mainly hunt rodents and small vertebrates. Do they kill partridge? Yes, but mainly the weak and sick or ones killed by a car or wounded by a hunter. They expend to much energy and time trying to hunt such a fast prey. They would never survive if that's what they lived on and this would be the only way you would see a decline in the patridge population if raptors only ate partridge.
Another broad stroke you make is "european". Most of the civilized country's have stricter laws on BOP than we do. They can only mount birds that die in captivity. They can not go out and kill one and mount it. Their raptor populations are protected just like ours. In fact they have even stricter laws than we do. Sure some of the other "european" contries alow it, but they also allow manythings that you proprbally feel should be unlawful. Also now you can mount bird of prey here in the USA. It's in the new falconry regulations. They have to be captive bred raptors. So I guess the land of the free isn't so bad after all?
You ask your self how do I know this information. I am a licensed falconer for over 15 years and have flown the very "raptors" you speak of. I hunt with them. Just me and the raptor. No gun no nothing. Partridge are too fast and can out fly most raptors. Most of the time when hunting partridge with my bird of prey we go home empty handed. The reason you see more birds of prey is becasue more and more patridge habitat is being lost to Growing corn and over grazing. This brings in more rodents and kills off the partridge breeding grounds. . More rodents equals more raptors. Sir blame man for your decline in partridge population not a bird who eats once every 3 days and sits on a power pole.
Raptors are very sacred and need protected from people like you who are uninformed and haven't read a current published study. I know, what do scientist know right? Again point the finger at man, not animal with wings and talons for your decline. Partridges and raptors have been around for millions of years together with no extinction of either species. What has changed? MAN and the insane prices of corn.
Chris
Your fact about raptors and decline in partridge population is unfounded and reeks of folk lore. The raptors have nothing to do with the decline. It's over grazing and loss of habitat that cause the decline. In another words, the human race...Raptors are opportunist and hunt the weak and the not well. "Raptors" are not fast enough to just sit on a pole and catch a partridge. Your broad stroke of "raptors" and owls is very telling of your knowledge of birds of prey. I am assuming you are speaking of red tailed hawks and great horned owls because the rest of the raptor species are either 2 small to take partridge or they dont sot around so you can observe them. Neither one of them can do enough damage to the population as they mainly hunt rodents and small vertebrates. Do they kill partridge? Yes, but mainly the weak and sick or ones killed by a car or wounded by a hunter. They expend to much energy and time trying to hunt such a fast prey. They would never survive if that's what they lived on and this would be the only way you would see a decline in the patridge population if raptors only ate partridge.
Another broad stroke you make is "european". Most of the civilized country's have stricter laws on BOP than we do. They can only mount birds that die in captivity. They can not go out and kill one and mount it. Their raptor populations are protected just like ours. In fact they have even stricter laws than we do. Sure some of the other "european" contries alow it, but they also allow manythings that you proprbally feel should be unlawful. Also now you can mount bird of prey here in the USA. It's in the new falconry regulations. They have to be captive bred raptors. So I guess the land of the free isn't so bad after all?
You ask your self how do I know this information. I am a licensed falconer for over 15 years and have flown the very "raptors" you speak of. I hunt with them. Just me and the raptor. No gun no nothing. Partridge are too fast and can out fly most raptors. Most of the time when hunting partridge with my bird of prey we go home empty handed. The reason you see more birds of prey is becasue more and more patridge habitat is being lost to Growing corn and over grazing. This brings in more rodents and kills off the partridge breeding grounds. . More rodents equals more raptors. Sir blame man for your decline in partridge population not a bird who eats once every 3 days and sits on a power pole.
Raptors are very sacred and need protected from people like you who are uninformed and haven't read a current published study. I know, what do scientist know right? Again point the finger at man, not animal with wings and talons for your decline. Partridges and raptors have been around for millions of years together with no extinction of either species. What has changed? MAN and the insane prices of corn.
Chris
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Chris Lynn
New member
J,
Some lite reading for you done by your own states DNR. It took me 5 seconds with google to find it. Please educate yourself.
http://dnr.wi.gov/news/weekly/Article_Lookup.asp?id=1938
Maybe this will help you see who the culprit is
Just incase you don't want to read it... Here is a quote from the article.
"Pheasants raised on game farms supply most of the upland bird hunting action in Wisconsin. Efforts to expand the number of wild pheasants on the landscape have been hindered by two long winters and by market forces. The federal Conservation Reserve Program was a boon to wildlife in that it paid farmers to take land out of production, but as the price of corn and beans have increased dramatically, almost half the CRP acres in Wisconsin have been pulled from the program in favor of crops."
Some lite reading for you done by your own states DNR. It took me 5 seconds with google to find it. Please educate yourself.
http://dnr.wi.gov/news/weekly/Article_Lookup.asp?id=1938
Maybe this will help you see who the culprit is
Just incase you don't want to read it... Here is a quote from the article.
"Pheasants raised on game farms supply most of the upland bird hunting action in Wisconsin. Efforts to expand the number of wild pheasants on the landscape have been hindered by two long winters and by market forces. The federal Conservation Reserve Program was a boon to wildlife in that it paid farmers to take land out of production, but as the price of corn and beans have increased dramatically, almost half the CRP acres in Wisconsin have been pulled from the program in favor of crops."
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Chris Lynn
New member
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpChris Lynn, just curious which of the European countries are civilized and which aren't?
You got me? I was just making a point
You got me? I was just making a point
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skinney
Director
Originally Posted By: Chris LynnJ Mark
Your fact about raptors and decline in partridge population is unfounded and reeks of folk lore. The raptors have nothing to do with the decline. It's over grazing and loss of habitat that cause the decline. In another words, the human race...Raptors are opportunist and hunt the weak and the not well. "Raptors" are not fast enough to just sit on a pole and catch a partridge. Your broad stroke of "raptors" and owls is very telling of your knowledge of birds of prey. I am assuming you are speaking of red tailed hawks and great horned owls because the rest of the raptor species are either 2 small to take partridge or they dont sot around so you can observe them. Neither one of them can do enough damage to the population as they mainly hunt rodents and small vertebrates. Do they kill partridge? Yes, but mainly the weak and sick or ones killed by a car or wounded by a hunter. They expend to much energy and time trying to hunt such a fast prey. They would never survive if that's what they lived on and this would be the only way you would see a decline in the patridge population if raptors only ate partridge.
Another broad stroke you make is "european". Most of the civilized country's have stricter laws on BOP than we do. They can only mount birds that die in captivity. They can not go out and kill one and mount it. Their raptor populations are protected just like ours. In fact they have even stricter laws than we do. Sure some of the other "european" contries alow it, but they also allow manythings that you proprbally feel should be unlawful. Also now you can mount bird of prey here in the USA. It's in the new falconry regulations. They have to be captive bred raptors. So I guess the land of the free isn't so bad after all?
You ask your self how do I know this information. I am a licensed falconer for over 15 years and have flown the very "raptors" you speak of. I hunt with them. Just me and the raptor. No gun no nothing. Partridge are too fast and can out fly most raptors. Most of the time when hunting partridge with my bird of prey we go home empty handed. The reason you see more birds of prey is becasue more and more patridge habitat is being lost to Growing corn and over grazing. This brings in more rodents and kills off the partridge breeding grounds. . More rodents equals more raptors. Sir blame man for your decline in partridge population not a bird who eats once every 3 days and sits on a power pole.
Raptors are very sacred and need protected from people like you who are uninformed and haven't read a current published study. I know, what do scientist know right? Again point the finger at man, not animal with wings and talons for your decline. Partridges and raptors have been around for millions of years together with no extinction of either species. What has changed? MAN and the insane prices of corn.
Chris
Your facts of the cannibalistic creatures reeks of emotion with your 15year love affair of the bird... a bird of prey is not only an opportunistic animal, but it is a well designed killer by nature, "ANY" animal will take advantage of weak or injured prey! We have hawks, falcons, and horned owls that I see weekly prey upon healthy pheasants, grouse and prairie chickens, I've seen em kill "healthy" grouse in mid flight, as well as pheasants in flight, pheasants roosting, and hens laying.
Raptors are "sacred"??? so are goats, cows, and cats to many different people, a pheasant is more sacred to me than a cannibalistic killer, 7.00 CORN is more sacred to me than a silly raptor, and I'm sure you "wont" do a double take next time your at the grocery story buying produce that your raptor didn't catch for ya.
Your fact about raptors and decline in partridge population is unfounded and reeks of folk lore. The raptors have nothing to do with the decline. It's over grazing and loss of habitat that cause the decline. In another words, the human race...Raptors are opportunist and hunt the weak and the not well. "Raptors" are not fast enough to just sit on a pole and catch a partridge. Your broad stroke of "raptors" and owls is very telling of your knowledge of birds of prey. I am assuming you are speaking of red tailed hawks and great horned owls because the rest of the raptor species are either 2 small to take partridge or they dont sot around so you can observe them. Neither one of them can do enough damage to the population as they mainly hunt rodents and small vertebrates. Do they kill partridge? Yes, but mainly the weak and sick or ones killed by a car or wounded by a hunter. They expend to much energy and time trying to hunt such a fast prey. They would never survive if that's what they lived on and this would be the only way you would see a decline in the patridge population if raptors only ate partridge.
Another broad stroke you make is "european". Most of the civilized country's have stricter laws on BOP than we do. They can only mount birds that die in captivity. They can not go out and kill one and mount it. Their raptor populations are protected just like ours. In fact they have even stricter laws than we do. Sure some of the other "european" contries alow it, but they also allow manythings that you proprbally feel should be unlawful. Also now you can mount bird of prey here in the USA. It's in the new falconry regulations. They have to be captive bred raptors. So I guess the land of the free isn't so bad after all?
You ask your self how do I know this information. I am a licensed falconer for over 15 years and have flown the very "raptors" you speak of. I hunt with them. Just me and the raptor. No gun no nothing. Partridge are too fast and can out fly most raptors. Most of the time when hunting partridge with my bird of prey we go home empty handed. The reason you see more birds of prey is becasue more and more patridge habitat is being lost to Growing corn and over grazing. This brings in more rodents and kills off the partridge breeding grounds. . More rodents equals more raptors. Sir blame man for your decline in partridge population not a bird who eats once every 3 days and sits on a power pole.
Raptors are very sacred and need protected from people like you who are uninformed and haven't read a current published study. I know, what do scientist know right? Again point the finger at man, not animal with wings and talons for your decline. Partridges and raptors have been around for millions of years together with no extinction of either species. What has changed? MAN and the insane prices of corn.
Chris
Your facts of the cannibalistic creatures reeks of emotion with your 15year love affair of the bird... a bird of prey is not only an opportunistic animal, but it is a well designed killer by nature, "ANY" animal will take advantage of weak or injured prey! We have hawks, falcons, and horned owls that I see weekly prey upon healthy pheasants, grouse and prairie chickens, I've seen em kill "healthy" grouse in mid flight, as well as pheasants in flight, pheasants roosting, and hens laying.
Raptors are "sacred"??? so are goats, cows, and cats to many different people, a pheasant is more sacred to me than a cannibalistic killer, 7.00 CORN is more sacred to me than a silly raptor, and I'm sure you "wont" do a double take next time your at the grocery story buying produce that your raptor didn't catch for ya.
The Redtailed Hawks have did a real number on the rabbits around here. You can not drive down the road and not see at least 4 or 5 hawks in a mile. There are so many hawks that they are getting hit on the road. Before we had all the hawks it would only take 3hours or so to limit now it takes all day if your lucky.No 7 dollar corn caused that.
yotezapper
New member
The real reason that these CRP acres are being broke up is becuse our current administration allowed the program to go under and there is no money left to pay the landowners. Therefor the land was too valuable to go to waste and it was broken up to farm agian.
Thanks for your post Skinney, I was brewing up something similar but you beat me to it.
We are having a h311 of a time with eagles around here. They are taking everything from birds, cats, dogs, and even baby calves. There were 11 eagles in front of my house yesterday morning, and a good buddy had the eyes pecked out of a baby calf the day before yesterday. I'm thinking that the raptors aren't near as neat as they used to be..
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Tim Neitzke
New member
CL,
Bird handler/lover you maybe,but you've not to well informed about the mid-west hawks and other birds of prey .
I agree with skinney,
Hawks can and do prey on healthy birds esp pheasants here. A few of my better yote hunting areas are managed for birds,mainly ringnecks. I hate to flush birds while yote hunting because on every 3 or 4 post,power pole there's a damned hawk waiting for a chance. I've seen as many as 6 Redtailed at one time watching over a small grass field. Mice, rabbits, pheasants,etc.... all fair game.
Bird handler/lover you maybe,but you've not to well informed about the mid-west hawks and other birds of prey .
I agree with skinney,
Hawks can and do prey on healthy birds esp pheasants here. A few of my better yote hunting areas are managed for birds,mainly ringnecks. I hate to flush birds while yote hunting because on every 3 or 4 post,power pole there's a damned hawk waiting for a chance. I've seen as many as 6 Redtailed at one time watching over a small grass field. Mice, rabbits, pheasants,etc.... all fair game.
Tim Neitzke
New member
A little more....
Rabbits, pheasants and grouse all have suffered from habitat changes, I will agree. However, the hawks and owls both get more than their share. When the leaves come down in the fall the critters have a bigger fight on their hands.
Then there is the morning doves,I've seen plenty of them turned to a puff of feathers by the smaller "Raptors".....
Rabbits, pheasants and grouse all have suffered from habitat changes, I will agree. However, the hawks and owls both get more than their share. When the leaves come down in the fall the critters have a bigger fight on their hands.
Then there is the morning doves,I've seen plenty of them turned to a puff of feathers by the smaller "Raptors".....
Tim Neitzke
New member
I just wish I could get chance (legally) find out if they really do taste like chicken....
coyotenut
New member
Hawks and eagles are hard on the grouse and pheasant population as well as antelope. In the hayfield in the summertime I have witnessed hawks and eagles catching pheasants. If it was a hen sitting on a nest, her eggs won't hatch and it hurts the population. A friend of mine who is a conservation officer said eagles are even worse for antelope than coyotes. It seemed to me that Chris Lynn may be a little biased.
jrcampbell
New member
I recently found a good way to keep the local raptors from killing too much small game....Lots of dead possums, 9 of them to be exact!
Chris Lynn
New member
@ Skinny, maybe you can rewind or replay your post for me in slow motion and put some dramatic music to it and maybe do some commentary at the end... other than that, your post is really just rhetoric.
Guys the fact of the matter is that raptors are not hurting pheasant populations. That is the question at hand. Do they hunt pheasant yes, but not enough to do anything like what we humans are doing them. Am I biased, No, I just like to read and look at hard core scientific data not field observations made by a few guys who see them stooping a pheasant. Please see the link I posted above and also use google. YOu keep saying they take pheasants off of eggs, they would have more nesting if there were more land to lay eggs on. So we go back to my original statement, fix the human problem and you will fix your pheasants, grouse, quail, or any other upland game bird.
I am all for conservation of upland game, but killing a few hawks as you drive by isn't the answer. They are like coyotes, where there is food they will come.. take one out and another will show up. Plus shooting one is a federal offense. You never know who is watching
Guys the fact of the matter is that raptors are not hurting pheasant populations. That is the question at hand. Do they hunt pheasant yes, but not enough to do anything like what we humans are doing them. Am I biased, No, I just like to read and look at hard core scientific data not field observations made by a few guys who see them stooping a pheasant. Please see the link I posted above and also use google. YOu keep saying they take pheasants off of eggs, they would have more nesting if there were more land to lay eggs on. So we go back to my original statement, fix the human problem and you will fix your pheasants, grouse, quail, or any other upland game bird.
I am all for conservation of upland game, but killing a few hawks as you drive by isn't the answer. They are like coyotes, where there is food they will come.. take one out and another will show up. Plus shooting one is a federal offense. You never know who is watching
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Tim Neitzke
New member
Lets see...
Less nesting areas = less birds.
Less birds + more hawks = less birds.
I see a pattern.
Less nesting areas = less birds.
Less birds + more hawks = less birds.
I see a pattern.
Tim Neitzke
New member
Originally Posted By: Chris Lynn
I am all for conservation of upland game, but killing a few hawks as you drive by isn't the answer. They are like coyotes, where there is food they will come.. take one out and another will show up
So, what you are saying is, a season on them will not hurt their numbers either . If I could shoot yotes and hawks on the same trip , that would make me even happier !Sounds good to me ....
I am all for conservation of upland game, but killing a few hawks as you drive by isn't the answer. They are like coyotes, where there is food they will come.. take one out and another will show up
So, what you are saying is, a season on them will not hurt their numbers either . If I could shoot yotes and hawks on the same trip , that would make me even happier !Sounds good to me ....
Chris Lynn
New member
Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeOriginally Posted By: Chris Lynn
I am all for conservation of upland game, but killing a few hawks as you drive by isn't the answer. They are like coyotes, where there is food they will come.. take one out and another will show up
So, what you are saying is, a season on them will not hurt their numbers either . If I could shoot yotes and hawks on the same trip , that would make me even happier !Sounds good to me ....
I am all for conservation of upland game, but killing a few hawks as you drive by isn't the answer. They are like coyotes, where there is food they will come.. take one out and another will show up
So, what you are saying is, a season on them will not hurt their numbers either . If I could shoot yotes and hawks on the same trip , that would make me even happier !Sounds good to me ....
Tim Neitzke
New member
I'd really hate to be a ground nesting bird. Hawks, owls, fox, yotes, mink, and all the egg eaters, skunks, opossums, coons etc...
Gotta be tuff.
Gotta be tuff.