doggin coyotes
Well-known member
Quote:
What brought about the change??? Money.
Yep, it's all about the money.
What brought about the change??? Money.
Yep, it's all about the money.
Ralph Lermayer's "It Is What It Is!" article in Predator Xtreme......
- Thread starter Rusty Holt
- Start date
TonyTebbe
New member
Rusty, your example is perfect for what I was going to say. I don't believe that the handfull of out of state hunters that come down to Texas, predator hunting on their own, is a drop in the bucket to the in-state issue of TX hunters whom are accustom to paying for hunting rights. Outside of a couple Non-US and handful out of state clients that I took hunting, the lions share were Texas hunters. Most, if not all, had little to no predator hunting land. I trained all of them on how I got free access by knocking on doors. A couple of them even wanted to see how it was done first hand, and went to the rancher's door with me, as I asked.
Predator Hunting has been growing popularity in leaps and bounds over the past few years. We all have contributed to it, in one way or another. Just by typing on this fine internet forum. Pics and stories of fencelines full of bobcats or coyotes, generates popularity. That's just on this internet board. As big as PM is, it's only a drop in the giant bucket of predator hunters out there.
Will Predator Hunting grow in popularity? Inevitably. Will it be as big as Deer Hunting? I don't think so. There's two things that can be done about it. Sit back and complain about it, or use our experience to educate new and future predator hunters. I know that's where Rusty's heart is in the creation of this thread.
Tony
Predator Hunting has been growing popularity in leaps and bounds over the past few years. We all have contributed to it, in one way or another. Just by typing on this fine internet forum. Pics and stories of fencelines full of bobcats or coyotes, generates popularity. That's just on this internet board. As big as PM is, it's only a drop in the giant bucket of predator hunters out there.
Will Predator Hunting grow in popularity? Inevitably. Will it be as big as Deer Hunting? I don't think so. There's two things that can be done about it. Sit back and complain about it, or use our experience to educate new and future predator hunters. I know that's where Rusty's heart is in the creation of this thread.
Tony
In my area, it started with deer hunters approaching the farmer and offering cash. It secured them a place to hunt and also kept other people off. It just took-off after that.
What started with 2-3 dollars an acre has now blossumed into 10-12 dollars . Almost equal to the figure required to cash rent for row crops. Of course, the ground in CRP and void of cattle yields the most money from the hunter.
Some clubs get the boot after the first year because they drive-in when it's muddy, cut fences to retrieve deer without the drag, and generally have disrespect for the land. Sad part is, there is a long line of guys ready to jump-in and knock the dust of their check books.
Randy
What started with 2-3 dollars an acre has now blossumed into 10-12 dollars . Almost equal to the figure required to cash rent for row crops. Of course, the ground in CRP and void of cattle yields the most money from the hunter.
Some clubs get the boot after the first year because they drive-in when it's muddy, cut fences to retrieve deer without the drag, and generally have disrespect for the land. Sad part is, there is a long line of guys ready to jump-in and knock the dust of their check books.
Randy
rprince
New member
Quote:
Quote:
What brought about the change??? Money.
Yep, it's all about the money.
We are dealing with the same change here as well but I won't blame the money..... Around here it's all about the deer.
30 years ago nobody leased land but we didn't have deer to hunt either. Everyone was a small game / waterfowl hunter & in order to hunt all you had to do was ask. Nowadays it's hard to run a pack of rabbit dogs during deer season in fear of running into a deer hunter.
The "family" farms are quickly dissapearing as well. 20 years ago you could pull up to a farm house & ask to hunt the property that joined the house. Most of those farms have now been sold & the person living in the house has no idea who owns or farms the land. It can be frustrating when you try to find out who the landowner is & when you do it is usually leased by deer hunters.
I'm not knocking deer hunters, I understand why they lease land. They like to be able to control the size & age of the deer that they harvest & they want the woods to be quiet when they are hunting, but it does suck when you have to "hunt around" them.
I hope that predator hunting never goes in that direction
Quote:
What brought about the change??? Money.
Yep, it's all about the money.
We are dealing with the same change here as well but I won't blame the money..... Around here it's all about the deer.
30 years ago nobody leased land but we didn't have deer to hunt either. Everyone was a small game / waterfowl hunter & in order to hunt all you had to do was ask. Nowadays it's hard to run a pack of rabbit dogs during deer season in fear of running into a deer hunter.
The "family" farms are quickly dissapearing as well. 20 years ago you could pull up to a farm house & ask to hunt the property that joined the house. Most of those farms have now been sold & the person living in the house has no idea who owns or farms the land. It can be frustrating when you try to find out who the landowner is & when you do it is usually leased by deer hunters.
I'm not knocking deer hunters, I understand why they lease land. They like to be able to control the size & age of the deer that they harvest & they want the woods to be quiet when they are hunting, but it does suck when you have to "hunt around" them.
I hope that predator hunting never goes in that direction
doggin coyotes
Well-known member
Quote:
I know of a ranch out here that was approached by a group of hunters out of Houston, TX and they simply asked the rancher if they could lease the predator hunting rights and threw out a dollar figure. I'm betting the same happened to deer hunting. City guys that didn't want to take the time or effort to knock on a door, shake a hand and look someone in the eye (or didn't know how to because they are from the big city) opted to offer cash instead. Deer hunting has become a cold, hard business down here.
I hope I am wrong when I compare deer hunting to predator hunting....but it's definitely headed in that direction.
Take care,
Rusty
It's not only the *city guys* as you call them screwing things up. The guides/outfitters or whatever else they prefer to be called are doing the same thing. They are as guilty as anybody.
There are some huge ranches here in CO that only a few years ago a guy could get permission to hunt coyotes pretty easy just by asking. Now a predator hunter stopping by the house to ask permission will hear,
"We currently have an outfitter leasing the hunting rights on all of our property and he does not want anybody else hunting on it. Sorry"
I can't even remember how many times I've heard that in the last 5 years. I can't blame em. I'd probably do the same thing.
I know of a ranch out here that was approached by a group of hunters out of Houston, TX and they simply asked the rancher if they could lease the predator hunting rights and threw out a dollar figure. I'm betting the same happened to deer hunting. City guys that didn't want to take the time or effort to knock on a door, shake a hand and look someone in the eye (or didn't know how to because they are from the big city) opted to offer cash instead. Deer hunting has become a cold, hard business down here.
I hope I am wrong when I compare deer hunting to predator hunting....but it's definitely headed in that direction.
Take care,
Rusty
It's not only the *city guys* as you call them screwing things up. The guides/outfitters or whatever else they prefer to be called are doing the same thing. They are as guilty as anybody.
There are some huge ranches here in CO that only a few years ago a guy could get permission to hunt coyotes pretty easy just by asking. Now a predator hunter stopping by the house to ask permission will hear,
"We currently have an outfitter leasing the hunting rights on all of our property and he does not want anybody else hunting on it. Sorry"
I can't even remember how many times I've heard that in the last 5 years. I can't blame em. I'd probably do the same thing.
dogcatcher
Active member
Leasing for deer hunting started because a lot of the state of Texas did not have any decent deer population. Most of the Texas deer hunters actually went to Colorado and other mountain states to hunt. Then fees increased in Colorado and other states for non residents. As the deer population increased in the hill country leasing came into play. Long drive from Houston to Colorado was soon changed to a lease payment for a place in the hill country. Next came the trophy hunters, those willing to spend the major dollars for a wall hanger caused the major dollar increase.
As far as predator hunting in Texas, the free access to ranches will end, maybe not in my lifetime. Things have changed quite a bit in just the last 10 to 20 years. Look at the feral hog situation, it used to be a farmer/rancher would beg for someone to come and kill them. Today at most of the places you better get out your check book. Yes there are a lot of places you can still hunt a hog for free, but those numbers are decreasing every year.
Next problem is the development of the land for the city dweller so he/she can have their small piece of the country. These small ranchitos divide up large tracks of land and the owners are not your everyday rancher/farmer. They restrict access to areas that were almost open range to the old time rancher. Look around the major cities in Texas, you drive for miles before you see a real ranch or farm, every town has developed a 20 mile buffer zone of ranchitos.
This is just the opinion of one old man that has seen hunting in Texas change over the last 60 plus years. Like I said most predator hunters will be paying for land access in the future, I don't think it will be as outrageous as deer lease prces but the dollar will change hands.
As far as predator hunting in Texas, the free access to ranches will end, maybe not in my lifetime. Things have changed quite a bit in just the last 10 to 20 years. Look at the feral hog situation, it used to be a farmer/rancher would beg for someone to come and kill them. Today at most of the places you better get out your check book. Yes there are a lot of places you can still hunt a hog for free, but those numbers are decreasing every year.
Next problem is the development of the land for the city dweller so he/she can have their small piece of the country. These small ranchitos divide up large tracks of land and the owners are not your everyday rancher/farmer. They restrict access to areas that were almost open range to the old time rancher. Look around the major cities in Texas, you drive for miles before you see a real ranch or farm, every town has developed a 20 mile buffer zone of ranchitos.
This is just the opinion of one old man that has seen hunting in Texas change over the last 60 plus years. Like I said most predator hunters will be paying for land access in the future, I don't think it will be as outrageous as deer lease prces but the dollar will change hands.
Rusty Holt
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What brought about the change???
Several things:
Growth in the human populations = more demand for a limited supply.
Increased property taxes - the land owners started looking for ways to pay their taxes
The demise of farming - now the landowner had to find another "cash crop"
An increase in the amount of expendable income - 50 years ago people didn't have the luxury of being able to pay to hunt nor the time to do it.
An increase in the deer population - as mentioned before, deer started it all. 50 years ago, much of Texas hardly had a huntable deer population.
Guides/outfitters - also as mentioned some who make their living guiding hunters need huge amounts of land to be able to take enought clients to pay the bills. A local recreational hunter can get free access for a few thousand acres and have all he can hunt. A guide might need 10s or 100s of thousands of acres to get the number and quality of hunts he wants to make the income he wants. This is not limited to deer. Try getting free access along the coast for waterfowl hunting. Most anything that is any good at all is leased up by outfitters and the list is long. Same for deer, quail and other things I'm sure.
So, the answer is a combinations of things really.
Quote:
In my area, it started with deer hunters approaching the farmer and offering cash.
Why did they offer cash if they could get it for free?
What brought about the change???
Several things:
Growth in the human populations = more demand for a limited supply.
Increased property taxes - the land owners started looking for ways to pay their taxes
The demise of farming - now the landowner had to find another "cash crop"
An increase in the amount of expendable income - 50 years ago people didn't have the luxury of being able to pay to hunt nor the time to do it.
An increase in the deer population - as mentioned before, deer started it all. 50 years ago, much of Texas hardly had a huntable deer population.
Guides/outfitters - also as mentioned some who make their living guiding hunters need huge amounts of land to be able to take enought clients to pay the bills. A local recreational hunter can get free access for a few thousand acres and have all he can hunt. A guide might need 10s or 100s of thousands of acres to get the number and quality of hunts he wants to make the income he wants. This is not limited to deer. Try getting free access along the coast for waterfowl hunting. Most anything that is any good at all is leased up by outfitters and the list is long. Same for deer, quail and other things I'm sure.
So, the answer is a combinations of things really.
Quote:
In my area, it started with deer hunters approaching the farmer and offering cash.
Why did they offer cash if they could get it for free?
Quote:
Why did they offer cash if they could get it for free?
The offers came from people that do not live here. Nobody around here has much money, especially for that sort of thing. Lots of people who have lived here forever where now shut out of ground they had hunted for years.
I do know that there are a few locals who now lease the ground and then sublease for more money. The guys who live here have a little better chance to grab some pretty good ground and then turn it into a profit. Follow the money.
Randy
Why did they offer cash if they could get it for free?
The offers came from people that do not live here. Nobody around here has much money, especially for that sort of thing. Lots of people who have lived here forever where now shut out of ground they had hunted for years.
I do know that there are a few locals who now lease the ground and then sublease for more money. The guys who live here have a little better chance to grab some pretty good ground and then turn it into a profit. Follow the money.
Randy
doggin coyotes
Well-known member
Quote:
Agreed....anyone who pays is screwing things up and that's why I haven't nor will I EVER pay a dime to lease the predator hunting rights from a single landowner.
Take care,
Rusty
Rusty, just curious,
As of yet have you had any of the ranch owners that let you hunt their land for nothing tell you that if you wanted to keep hunting their land that you would need to pay?
From what you have said, I presume you would tell em to stick it if they had or have? What do you do if or when the day comes when you can't find a place or a land owner to let you hunt predators without a fee?
Years ago I did alot of goose hunting. I always enjoyed it. I enjoyed it ALOT. The time came a few years back when I could not find a place to goose hunt without paying a *trespass fee*. At that point I sold evey darn thing that had anything to do with hunting geese except the shotgun. I just hope the day never comes when I have to make that choice when it comes to predator hunting. I'm not sure I could give up the coyote hunting as easy as I did the goose hunting.
Could you give it up if it came to pay or no play?
Man I hope it never comes to that.
Agreed....anyone who pays is screwing things up and that's why I haven't nor will I EVER pay a dime to lease the predator hunting rights from a single landowner.
Take care,
Rusty
Rusty, just curious,
As of yet have you had any of the ranch owners that let you hunt their land for nothing tell you that if you wanted to keep hunting their land that you would need to pay?
From what you have said, I presume you would tell em to stick it if they had or have? What do you do if or when the day comes when you can't find a place or a land owner to let you hunt predators without a fee?
Years ago I did alot of goose hunting. I always enjoyed it. I enjoyed it ALOT. The time came a few years back when I could not find a place to goose hunt without paying a *trespass fee*. At that point I sold evey darn thing that had anything to do with hunting geese except the shotgun. I just hope the day never comes when I have to make that choice when it comes to predator hunting. I'm not sure I could give up the coyote hunting as easy as I did the goose hunting.
Could you give it up if it came to pay or no play?
Man I hope it never comes to that.
Rusty Holt
New member
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Courtgus
New member
Quote:
get back into arrowhead hunting/collecting
Did I hear arrowhead hunting? Rusty thats as much fun as shooting a coyote for FREE! Here is are some from my last dig. Maybe this will get you back into it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Keep Predator Hunting free in Texas, just ask for premission, dont pay for it!
get back into arrowhead hunting/collecting
Did I hear arrowhead hunting? Rusty thats as much fun as shooting a coyote for FREE! Here is are some from my last dig. Maybe this will get you back into it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Keep Predator Hunting free in Texas, just ask for premission, dont pay for it!
Even to hunt arrow heads you need landowner permission.
Hunting arrow heads, especially a "dig" on public land is a state and/or federal crime.
Hunting arrow heads, especially a "dig" on public land is a state and/or federal crime.
Rusty Holt
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WaltinRuth
New member
Pay to hunt a coyote is the craziest thing I have ever heard of. But then I am poor and those with the money will always prevail over some poor schmuck like me who can't come up with the scratch. But pay to hunt coyotes? lol Never will I in my lifetime anyways....Walt
spiderman
New member
Gentlemen...history has many different trends in our outdoor sports. Hunting ,trapping ,fishing. Trapping generally follows the price trends of furs. Fishing has seen people go from catching something for supper to tournaments for bass ,walleye, ect. The cost of being guided to fish on lakes and steams is a business of its own. Hunting deer with lets say bow and arrow as well as muzzel loader has seen huge changes with the technology developments . Predator hunting is supposed to be one of the fastest increasing hunting types in popularity at this time. As people have asked to have permission from land owners for the privalige of fishing , hunting ,ect on their lands, the increase of people participating in these activities has ment people losing their place to do their "thing" to family, relatives ,friends,ect. So the old time fix was to offer the landowner some kind of gift of either part of the game taken (rabbits,pheasants, quail, fish, ect. to offering to help the landowner fix fence, repairs on the property ect. to keep their status as sole user of the land for their interests. Then it was more time efficient to just offer money for this instead of the time investment of helping the landowner. I also have heard it from land owners when I was asking for permission to trap that promises from previous trappers to either help them or spend time and effort to remove problem animals from near their house or barns , were not fulfilled . Land owners don't like broken promises of any kind. Some farmers would allow anyone asking for permission to hunt or trap to "go right ahead" and then you had competition on "your" own areas from others. So the need to be exclusive came to be. How to do this??? Money made the land owner responsible to you by not letting others also use the area for your intentions but still allowed ,let's say bowhunters to use the same area you are trapping....then you checking your traps messed up his area for his purposes and his to some extent ,yours. Then it is "total exclusive use rights" time and usually more money to exclude even more " users" of the land. Kind of where we are now...more in some parts of our world than others and constant changes in particular sports as they become more and less popular. One benefit is that usually the ones spending the money take some "ownership" in the land and resources , usually for their benefit , but also with positive improvements in wildlife numbers,quality of animals ,nutrition for many game and non game animals in the area with food plots and added food and minerals. We are all part of the mix in this world...the ones that will never pay to hunt, those that do , those that will start , and those that say it isn't worth it and quit. Things will change and some times this come full circle and some things never return. Did any of us ever 20 years ago think we would pay for a bottle of water or pay for TV programing??? It is not right ,but some did and then others and now most. Does it make it wrong? Who knows but it is status quo now so go figure. The paying does exclude one to improve the experience of another...as the price gets too high, it will not be paid and when predators get too thick , hunters will be asked or paid to remove or control them. When all is going good , the hunting goes to the highest bidder or to those who choose to become land owners. We all have a part in this drama and the curtains still up and no fat lady in sight. SM
I know a lot of guys that said they were going to quit dipping snuff when it went to $0.50 a can. Now I guess they are paying close to $5.00. I wonder how many will quit when the next big tobacco tax takes effect?
doggin coyotes
Well-known member
Quote:
I know a lot of guys that said they were going to quit dipping snuff when it went to $0.50 a can. Now I guess they are paying close to $5.00. I wonder how many will quit when the next big tobacco tax takes effect?
I don't chew, but I think I saw a price at the L&J yesterday of over $5.00 can? OUCH if ya chew.
I know a lot of guys that said they were going to quit dipping snuff when it went to $0.50 a can. Now I guess they are paying close to $5.00. I wonder how many will quit when the next big tobacco tax takes effect?
I don't chew, but I think I saw a price at the L&J yesterday of over $5.00 can? OUCH if ya chew.