Mr. Catshooter, I am refering to the American made model 70,92,94,95,etc.Of the which are very hard to find at reasonalbe rates.Very high quality firearms.From personal issues with Remington, trigger on my 700,feed issues with my model 7, just my personal experieces.I know they have been and are a quality firearms manufacture,and I am still a fan especially of their shotguns.Concerning Winchester, I have handled the Japanese built guns and they are of exceptional fit and finish, the semi-auto, Benelli/Browning look-a-like also are very well made.The price points on all I have looked at start at $1000.