Are PM's advertising rules B.S?

R

River Runner

New member
(brought this down from the Important Messages forum)

There seems to be some hardship amongst several members and the PM staff as to why we regulate the hand call advertising, and a few other things on our site.
I'm hoping to maybe clear up some suspicions some of you may have and justify any wrong doing others claim to be feeling or seeing.

Let me start this off by saying those of you that think we are in this for the money, pretty much are on the right track, but your headed the wrong way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
With all due respect, there is not a person on the PM staff that has benefited in any way due to monies generated from any advertiser. Not myself, not Randy Black, not one moderator, not one advisor. In fact no one has even ever been voted off the staff for embezzlement.

The money that we generate from any advertiser or donation on this site goes strictly to run the site, and provide annual hunts every year for the membership. Both require much more money then you could possibly imagine, and we would like to be able to offer more then the LBL, and the Globe hunts to you each year. In time we will!

Expenses to keep this place up include things like, our monthly server bill, any script work done by Rainstorm, upgrade and routine maintenance, site backups, merchandising, which includes the designing of practically everything we offer. These designers aren’t offering their services for free. Shipping.
Then there’s hunt expenses. Were buying a button machine for the name badges, the material to make those. Sponsors got a framed certificate of appreciation last year. We always tip off the Country Kitchen for their troubles.
Should I keep going?

Last year with the board upgrade, the shopping cart and all the extra time put in and charged hourly by our host, it cost us close to 10 grand.
Sure you can do the math, what’s that leave us assuming all advertising accounts are paid up. Not very much at all, but it does leave some. Who gets it?…where’s it go? Well I paid off my 2006 Ford Expedition. LOL
No seriously…. it gets put aside for recurring expenses. For some reason the bills never stop coming. We have tried throwing them away….but they keep coming back.

Now I realize that there’s always going to be some that think this is total BS, but I’m here to tell you. No one is profiting from any of this in anyway. My ole 78 Ford still leaks oil in the driveway, I’m still one month behind in my house payments. And I can verify no one else is dipping.

Let’s talk about making some serious money. For those of you that still think I’m blowing smoke. How many other websites (the size of ours) can anyone advertise on for less then $400 a year with a banner?
HOB accounts, what other websites (the size of this one) let you advertise till your hearts content for free?
Did anyone here know that 24hour campfire charges OVER $10,000 for an advertising account? Over 10,000 dollars! Makes us look pretty cheap when you compare the traffic doesn’t it? Still think were in this to get rich?

There are a lot of sites and boards with the same theme as ours out there that DO allow free advertising. But what you need to realize is that they do not have even half of the expenses that we have. Why?….because we are so much larger. We have to pay for more space. We offer merchandise, hunting trips, and an invaluable source of information right here on the board, that grows larger and larger every day and raises our expenses as it grows. Smaller sites that allow free advertising do not.

I know that there’s been some smoke shows over in the hand call forum lately about why anyone should have to pay for advertising their homemade calls. And why can’t someone post a photo of some calls they made without being accused of selling things or advertising. If you ignore everything in this post please pay attention to this next line.
We as human beings back here, have absolutely no way of knowing who is really selling calls, who only makes one per year, who gives all there calls to their brother in law, etc. The only, I say the only …way to be fair to everyone is to make sure the rules apply to everyone. How is someone that is actually proud of paying for the right to show off their calls and maybe sell a few going to feel if we started saying, Well this guy only posted 6 calls and he says that they are free, or he’s not really selling them. He’s got 14 rabbit in distress calls that he whittled out of craft blocks but we are hypocrites, and or thieves for assuming he’s going to offer them for sale.
The guys that paid for advertising are really going to enjoy that going on around them aren’t they?

Why even charge anyway? We have to. We have to do it because it helps us with our recurring expenses, and we have got to regulate it somehow… the mass of hand call makers that is. With out any fees in place this place would be destroyed by posts containing homemade hand calls for sale. I’m already getting complaints about the hand call forum being nothing but hand call store. Can you imagine if there was no rules or fees in place?

Like I said, we have done and will continue to do, everything we can to make things as fair as possible around here, but in order to do so…things set into place have to apply to everyone.

Bottom line here guys is that no one is getting rich or making a profit from your supported advertising funds in anyway. We charge what we need to charge to be able to keep the site self-sufficient. Meaning it pays for it’s self. Nothing more. I’d like to jack things up to the going rate of $11,000 dollars a year, hell I WOULD be driving a new Expedition, but that’s not exactly what "Will" had laid out here for us.

I hope some of this explains things a little better, as to why we do what we do around here. All we really want is to continue to be the best predator hunting board on the net for a long time.

Who's in??
smile.gif
 
Jim,first off I'm a member of this board because of the people we have on here,members,moderators and officers of the board and the interest we all share in a common passion.Having said that the board really is in a no win situation in regards to the latest scuffle in the hand call forum.Both rich's have my utmost respect.I know in his heart rich c. is trying to be as fair as he can in dealing the same way with everyone.I also know rich g. is an honerable man who most assuredly felt his reputation was being unfairly attacked.
It really boils down to your going to have to tell everyone who posts a picture of a call that if you do so you will have to pay the money to be a call seller.If you don't do that then there will be accusations of favoritism.
I myself think you guys are doing a great job and at some hard decisions,a thankless job.But someone has to make the decisions of what directions the board is going.I just say be as fair and consistent as you can and there shouldnt be any questions.take care,daveyboy
 
I'm glad I don't have the "low paying job" of being a mod., and I understand the thinking that you guys go through in trying to be "fair" to all. BUT, it seems to me that a guy should be able to post a picture, or even a few pictures of his calls on occasion, especially if he out right says in his post that they are "NOT FOR SALE". And, if he/she does sell any of them, I would think in short order it would become obvious, and at that point, that person should be required to pay to play, or simply stop posting pics. of any of his/her makings!
The mods. of taken the "hard line" to the situation. Personnaly, it hasn't bothered me in the past, when anyone posted a picture of a call, or a few calls, to show them off. I know it's possible for a poster to sell "behind the scene", BUT eventually, it would become effident.
The hand call making has exploded in the recent couple of years. I want to see the PM forums be a welcoming first step to those interested in making calls. But, if they can't show off any of thier new found love, or hobby of call making to start with, kind of takes away some of the excitement of those first few creations.
What to do about it all to be fair, it's just my opinion that PM has taken a "stiffer" approach to it than I would. BUT, I'm not the rule maker, and I don't want the job! There needs to be a way for people to post, without having to pay. Maybe they all need to keep a frozen dead coyote handy, then every time they make a new call, they can pose with it, and make sure they get a close up of the call...I mean coyote.. and mention in the hunting story that they could make a few more calls like it if someone would like one!!! Would that be acceptable??

Bottom line, keep up the good work mods. You've got your hands full!!
 
I said no more posts, and this is my last post on this board. However I think you owe me a clearer explanation of this rule. Does it mean NO one can ever post a single picture of a call for any reason if not a HOB ??????

I also feel I'm owed an apoligy from Cronk, I responded to an ad offering scrap wood in exchange for a call, I posted a single picture showing call I was willing to swap, Rick and I agreed to swap and that should have been the end of it.
Futher more, with wording of posts, IF I ever wanted to sell a call anywhere, I would be branded as a person that really meant to all along.
[beeep] is your words not mine------ but I agree!
Richard Grantham
 
RR. Maybe I should not answer as I do not intend to sell any calls ever. BUT,
I really like this board, I am sure you all work hard and that no one is abusing anything. I know you must have rules and they should be clear and equitable.
The ONLY beef I had with recent events was that I feel the first response to the post was needlessly mean spirited and rude. I saw no reason for the assumption that the poster was trying to "get away" with something.
Maybe lock the violating message, post a simple notice of the rules, if a second violation follows delete them.
Just an idea. I do appreciate the work you do.
Carl
 
Richard, I have a lot of respect for you.
Infact, due to that respect, I really feel betrayed that you feel as though your being singled out here.

I...am...not, trying to make anyones life more difficult here. I am trying to make things as fair as possible and the only way that can be accomplished is to NOT be the judge of who is and who aint selling calls.
Everybody has got to be treated equal, yourself included.
There are things that we watch for which is outlined in those rules, that may indicate a seller. Rather then assuming, or judging you do or don't, the minute a series of duplicate calls is posted you fall into that category.
It has got to apply to everyone, I cannot stress that enough. We are not singling anyone out.

I honestly felt that I completely outlined the process of that in this post; Unauthorized Advertising . I can see some may not agree with it, but I don't understand what's left to not get, in that post.

You think I thoroughly enjoy being in the position I'm in right now? I'm trying to be fair, that's all I'm doing.
 
Jim, First I'd like to say thanks, but you owe no one an explanation of the profits, or expenses of Predator Masters. I was questioned by a particular Moderator recently in a chat room about a post by a fella that I do not know. The guy apparently questioned PM's money on another site.
I could not seem to make my opinion understood to your Moderator, and in reading your post carefully,I'm not confident in the explanation of my words you must have been given. So, I will explain them here.
In my eyes, Predator Masters is a Business, no more, no less. When a business is set up, as we all know you have to declare it to be a "Business for Profit", or "Non Profit".
Either way, the bills must be met, and never quit comming.
Your making, or not making of money is strictly the Business of the "Owners" of Predator Masters.
I'm sure you guys have looked into operating as a Non Profit Organization, and the tax shelters it provides. I assume you have decided that it is not your best option.
Again, "Your Business" and absoulutly, no one elses' Business!

Being a Call Maker myself I want to say the following...
Though I have not bought my HOB status yet, I do intend to do so, regardless of which way Predator Masters goes on the call picture issue. I have also abided by the rules as best I understand them.
I'll suggest you make the rule simple, "Only HOB holders can post pictures, or links to their hand calls on the Predator Masters site"
This eliminates all judgement calls by moderators, and rules out any grey area for interpretation. I'd also suggest you only allow members to post pics, or links of hand calls made by HOB holders.

Keep up the good work. Running Predator Masters can be no easy task Ridge
 
River Runner,
The rules set forth are clear and GOOD!
Rich Cronk is only doing what is right and fair.
Those of us who pay the outragious /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif sum of $50.00 a year appreciate what you are doing.
No matter what you do, your going to have whiners and criers.
We've all seen the guys who post pictures of calls saying they are not for sale. Then we see them on another board selling their calls. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Rich wasn't born yesterday. He knows the game.
Keep up the good work guys! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Quote:
River Runner,
The rules set forth are clear and GOOD!
Rich Cronk is only doing what is right and fair.



Not exactly. Richard G. posted some pictures of some calls he made and said that he wanted to trade them with other makers. Cronk told him he couldn't do that. RG said that they weren't for sale, only for trade. Cronk called him a liar (maybe not in those exact words, but that was what he meant). So RG backed off. Then another person posts a picture of 2 calls he made. One of them happened to have a mouthpiece made by Cronk. Not a peep out of Cronk. What gives? As long as you use a Cronk mouthpiece, the rules don't apply?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rules. But they have to apply evenly. I have paid my dues and fully support the board. But the rules have to apply evenly. If only HOB advertisers can post pics, fine. I have no problem with that. Personal attacks by mods are not right and not fair. If there is a problem, handle it privately. No need to embarass either party on open forum.

I had a little problem with a post I made a while back. It was determined that it did not fall within guidelines. Weasel contacted me through the PM system and explained the way things should be. It was done in private between two grown men. No name calling. No personal attacks. The way it should be.

That's my opinion and it's worth exactly what you paid for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Paul
 
Jim,

“I’m already getting complaints about the hand call forum being nothing but hand call store. Can you imagine if there was no rules or fees in place?”

I think the HOB and rules that surround it are the root of the problem.

Before the HOB it used to be pretty mellow with folks showing and asking about old, new hand calls, and which work best and how to use them (these kind of questions have kind of moved to the predator calling forums for their designated areas).

Then we went through the Rich Cronk era, where the only thing talked about or promoted was the Cronk Calls (Which is a good thing for Rich and I have no qualms with it. It was just a stage of the forum), with a few and far between others showing calls. Made the forum very boring.

Then came then Internet boom and floods of new call makers (With some nice stuff too I might add) shortly followed by the HOB status (and at the time its unclear rules). I’m not sure even how the life of HOB even started, who even brought it up and why? In the beginning it was more of a discouragement then an encouragement for new call makers/hobby makers to develop their skills and show off new stuff. The $50 fee at the time didn’t make a lot of sense to the guys who made 10-15 calls a year. While they gave away few, traded a few and ultimately selling a few. But, it wasn’t worth their time to pay $50 for the 5 or so calls they did sell for a grand total $60 to $130, and that was probably used to recoup cost and maybe buy a little more supplies for any future call makings (definitely no a serious money making venture by any means

And for the call selling forum, we can contribute that too the HOB also and the latest phase of the forum. The guys paid $50-$75 to advertise their calls, and that’s what they are going to do. They figure they’ll recoup their fee, and get their monies worth of selling and advertising. Kind of like some of us go to an all you can eat restaurant for $9.99, and try to eat $100 worth of food.

Bar getting rid of the Hob all together and going back to the big happy family thing, I’m just not sure what to tell ya Jim, but I’m glad your trying.

Maybe solicit ideas from the call makers themselves.

Carl.... I agree with the statement on how it was done.

Ridge....""Only HOB holders can post pictures, or links to their hand calls on the Predator Masters site"
This eliminates all judgement calls by moderators, and rules out any grey area for interpretation. I'd also suggest you only allow members to post pics, or links of hand calls made by HOB holders." This I disagree with and would probablty just cut the traffic to the forum down you makers and a few looking to buy another call.

Be safe,
Todd

PS One other question do the moderators that advertise their calls pay the $75 fee? If not, that too might fix you problem as they are not viewing it from the other side and might be apt to suggest different options if they were?
 
We call ourselves Hobby Call Makers, and yet some of us are not willing to spend an extra 50 bucks a year on our hobby. Interesting.

We buy delrin, horns, wood, tools, lathes, and God knows what that cost us more than we want to admit, but when it comes to forking over 50 bucks for the privilege of showing off our work, we get all scrunched up in the face, our panties get bunched up in knots and the blood starts boiling.

For 50 bucks a year – you are golden. You can make ‘em and post ‘em and no one is going to say “boo” to you about it.

For a mere 14 cents a day, you can post away pics of your calls and if you want, sell a few now and then to offset your expenses. (14 cents a day is what it breaks down to when you divide 50 bucks by 365 days folks) Instead, we want the privilege of advertising or posting our calls for free. We sound like a bunch of freeloading Democrats on the Government dole. It’s shameful.

Even if the board owners were making money off the site, what the heck would we have to gripe about? What business is it of ours anyway? They are providing a service. Stands to reason they might want to get paid for that service. This is still America and that is the way business works. Think I am full of it?

Anybody catch Rush Limbaugh the other day when a caller asked him what he was doing with the profits from the Club Gitmo gear he was selling on his Web Site? Well, if you didn’t, let me paraphrase what Rush said. The caller wanted to know why the money was not going to charity, and Rush never batted an eye when he replied, “we're not giving them to charity, we’re keeping them. (the profits) It’s called capitalism. That’s the reason to be in business. To make a profit.”

But as you just read, the board owners here don’t keep the money. It goes back into the board and into hunts and other things for the members. If you want to be mad, there is something to gripe about. We ought to be ripping them up for doing something for US. They’re giving up their time, blood, sweat and tears to make this board the best Predator Hunting Board in the world and yet we don’t want to contribute 14 cents a day to help in the effort.

If those of you griping about the Hobby Call Maker Advertising fee aren’t embarrassed yet, you should be getting there real fast.

Predator Masters is a well moderated, state of the art site that has some of the best Predator Hunters in the world on it freely giving out more information than you could ever find on your own in a lifetime. Heck, if it isn’t worth 14 cents a day to be a member here, well, then maybe you should go elsewhere. There a few great sites where you can post your calls for free and do what ever you want without contributing one single dime. But there is only ONE Predator Masters, and I for one don’t think 14 cents a day is asking too much nor is it going to break me.

So no, I do not think the Hob Rules are "BS", but I do think those griping about them are. When Rich Cronk does his job, we ought to say "thanks" even if we are the ones getting the whooping, cause he doesn't dish it out if you don't deserve it. And if you deserve it, you ought to be man enough to take it and move on. It isn't personal, it's business.

Al
 
Al, good post. Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Ridgeviewer: The fee was $50 when HOB started. It has been raised to $75

The raise was necessary to cover the mods salaries being doubled. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif Oh Crap! where's my whiteout. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
Personally, I think the swap should have been taken private. The entire thread looked like an add for Richard G. His address and all was posted right there in public for all to see. What are moderators suppposed to think?

I sincerely believe that it was not intended to look that way. I think Richard Grantham is an honorable and honest man.If he wasn't he would not be so [beeep]!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I for one would hate to see him leave the board.

I have turned down several private offers to sell calls because of the rules of this board. I have also made trades of wood and calls in private as well. I also participated in the board call swap.

Because of hard feelings about the swap I will not participate in another board wide swap.If anyone wishes to trade for wood or calls they can PM me if they wish.

Moderators must uphold rules of the board whether toes are stepped on or not. It is the only way they can be fair to all.I have turned down the moderators job a couple of times. This is not a job I would want to have to do.It is thankless and people are always to willing to holler unfair treatment which I would take personally as an insult. When you enter this board you agree to the rules of this board. Your post's are subject to the scrutiny of all moderators and administrators of this board. The PM Terms of service are there for all to see as well as board rules.

I have handled a few hundred dollars in donations to this board. Proceeds of raffels and just plain, out right donations specifically for the board. In my few dealings with RR he was straight forward and honest with me about it. If anyone out there believes that I or anyone else ascociated with the LBL hunt pocketed a dime you are sadly mistaken and a sorry human being. Out right insults are what have been made toward the administrators of this board in this matter. If you have absolute proof then speak up, otherwise keep such opinions to yourself. The fact the administrators can keep civil tongues about it, are proof of their character as far as I am concerned. Jimmie
 
This is a tough situation to be sure.

When I first started visiting the Hand Calls forum, there were questionn about calls, how to use them, where they came from, got it from grandaddy, what's it worth, what sounds are best and so forth.

It is rare that I visit the Hand Call section anymore because of the huge amount of spamming going on (across the boards too).

Yes there are a lot of call makers that have come on board the last 4 years and some of them are pretty good.

If you're gonna sell them, try setting aside a couple three dollars from each sale, put it in a shoebox and pay the price. If it's truly a trade in the making, it should go in the classified section the way I see it.

Regardless of which way it goes, please sign, brand, label or mark you calls because 10 years down the road it won't be worth Jack if it can't be identifed. Secondly, pick a design and stick with it so there is a branding identity developed. Chair leg spindles don't cut it with me.

Lastly, it is an easy thing to complain if you aren't involved in any of the work. Anyone who has ever been involved as an officer, project volunteer or Board Member of any club (no matter how big or small) should realize and appreciate the effort it takes to run anything.

I'll close by saying that Cronk cannot help how he looks. Accept him for who he is.
 
Last edited:
What some may not realize is that the HOB was designed for the HOB call makers. Advertising is advertising. If $75 is a stretch, imagine if there was no HOB and you got stuck with the regular going rate for a full blown banner, etc.

So lets back up, YOU'RE GETTING A DISCOUNT! Its a case of the cup is half emtpy or half full type deal. Some of the older dogs support the policy, most of the ones griping havent ever signed up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

No mod likes to visit this issue. And the rules are applied evenly, I think Jim has expressed that 16 times now. Instead of exerting the energy to drum up some sympathy on other boards, why not use that same energy and make a call to pay for your ad account?

Talking about PM through other media sources shows we are liked I guess or we wouldnt be worth the time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

The HOB is for some people, and others it isnt. If its not for you, move on.

The issue keeps being brought up about the HOM prizes. If you want to donate, please do, if not say "thanks but no thanks". Its pretty simple. Dont let it rub you funny. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif We arent wanting that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Just a thought, what about having an HOB forum? It would be a place where only HOB members could post their calls for sale and other members could ask questions of specific call makers. Then we could leave the Hand Call forum for questions and information on hand calling in general. I'm not sure of the logistics of adding another forum and it might not be doable at this time, but it might make the hand call forum more inviting to those who only want to talk about hand calling and don't want to wade through all the advertising. Something to think about at least.

Paul
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top