Are PM's advertising rules B.S?

I quote Paul..............
"Not exactly. Richard G. posted some pictures of some calls he made and said that he wanted to trade them with other makers. Cronk told him he couldn't do that. RG said that they weren't for sale, only for trade. Cronk called him a liar (maybe not in those exact words, but that was what he meant). So RG backed off. Then another person posts a picture of 2 calls he made. One of them happened to have a mouthpiece made by Cronk. Not a peep out of Cronk. What gives? As long as you use a Cronk mouthpiece, the rules don't apply?"
Still no answer to this question either!!!

This is the P.M. Isent Rich before I posted the pic's of the 2 calls I made.
"Rich,
I bought a White lightning call from you a while back and liked it so much I bought a cow horn off of e-bay and after some work had turned it into a howler.My question is, would you mind if I showed a picture of it on the hand calls forum? I don't sell calls.I just make them for myself and a couple of friends.If you would rather I didn't show it I would completely understand. I don't want to step on anyone's toes.
Thanks Bruce "

I'v probably made a total of 4 or 5 calls total in the time I've been a member of this board.You do the math. That was the first time I had ever posted a picture of any of them.
I don't know how to use a lathe to make table legs nor do I have the ability to make the mouth pieces for howler's.That's why I used Rich's.When I said I made them for myself and a couple friend's that means 2.I don't sell them,nor would I have the time and money it takes to make them.Here is your reply
 
captkb,
The example you gave in regard to the member who posted a photo of a couple of calls is totally different than the R.G. problem. The member who posted that call with the Cronk mouthpiece had prior permission to post the photo, and it was very clear that he had no intention of selling calls. R.G. is an expert in call making, and was once a paid up Hobby call maker. He announced that he was going out of business quite some time ago. He recently bought a new lathe, turned several duplicate calls, posted a proud photo of said calls, and told us all right there on the public forum that he was finally set up the way he wanted to be. New Jet mini Lathe and all. I could go on and on but I think you should be getting the picture by now. I have everything documented. Did I handle the latest violation in best way possible? I think so.
 
Rooster,

Thanks for your reply and I hope you don't take any offense in my post. I was hoping to get a reply from Rich Cronk to get his personal perspective on the difference between the two. You say you have only made 4-5 calls since being a member of this board - I honestly have no doubt your telling the truth.................But looking at it from an outsiders perspective theres no proof to back up what you say. Again I have no reason to doubt you, but the rules that have been stated are for everyone. If thats the case then this should have blown up when you made your post with the pictures of the calls you made. You asked permission and was allowed to post pictures of calls you have made. Richard posts a picture of a call he orginally made for himself, but changed his mind and decided to trade it for scrap wood. Richard is a call maker and you are as well............according to the rules. Nothing against you Rooster, I just want Rich to step up with an honest answer as to why he went about this situation the way he did. In all honesty I seriously doubt I will get that answer from him.

Again I appreciate your reply as it does shed some light to the situation and by all means is not directed towards you as a person or as a call maker.
 
TomTalker,
I am still here big guy. Better men than you have tried to run me off, but I'm still here. Read my above answer to Captkb, and then please calm down a little bit. I am not a hard man to get along with, but please don't try to start a fight with me here. I think that you and I could settle this over a cup of coffee somewhere, and I hope that this is as far as it goes.
 
Above answer?

Rooster explained his side of the deal but as far as an answer from why you handled them differently has not been done.

I don't see where Tom is looking at starting a fight either. Just looking for answers!
 
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Since we are all picking on rich let me just say

Rich about howling in PA /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Just trying to lighten it up /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rich I really happy every thing went good in way of you health
And keep you spirits high pal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Quoting Rich Cronk....
"TomTalker,
I am still here big guy. Better men than you have tried to run me off, but I'm still here"

Rich Cronk...
In my reading TomTalker's post several times I fail to understand your obvious flaming, and disrespect of Tom, in your reply.
It is this type of disrespect, that is at issue here.
 
captkb,
You got your honest answer from me. It is now clear that you are not here for honest answers. Please cool your dew, you have no case worth my time or energy.
 
Rich,

Once again you have FAILED to answer the question at hand. This entire post you have danced around the issue.

WHY DID YOU ALLOW ROOSTER'S CALL PICTURES AND NOT ALLOW RICHARD'S?

Rooster answered me telling his side of the story and by that it explained a whole lot to those of us you try to keep in the dark. Everyone has a reason for everything they do.............and when asked some even stand up and have the backbone to say why..................others are just YELLOW!!!!!!!!!!
 
I have unlocked this thread and will move it back to important messages forum. The hand call forum is for talking about calls, not calling people names.
 
FYI.

We can keep this thread going but..... Some respect is in order.

The idea of this thread is to get ideas of how to handle this issue of hobbiests who are selling vs those who attempt to skirt the rules. We want input but there is no need for personal attacks and they will NOT be tolerated!

Randy
 
Rooster,
Please don't think I have any issues with you. I don't. You just happened to be a person who posted some calls. My issue was the way things were handled with Richard G. As I see it, you both posted pictures of calls you made. You both claimed they were not for sale. The difference I saw between the two posts was that you used a Rich C. mouthpiece and Richard G. had calls of his own design. Richard G's honesty was questioned and no comment was made about your post. I couldn't understand what the difference was except your call had a Rich C. mouthpiece. You just happened to be an innocent bystander.

On to other things. I can fully understand why the rules we have are the rules. Those who run the board want to protect the advertisers. Advertisers are the life blood of this place. I imagine it took a bit of thoughtful consideration before the HOB program was implemented. In reality, we do compete with some of the larger advertisers here, but at a reduced rate. So those in charge on PM walk a fine line trying to keep all who advertise here happy. I appreciate all they do and think they have come up with a compromise that works. To some who don't make many calls, $75.00 might sound like a lot of money, and it is. But ask yourself this question, "Why would I spend this money on PM?" My personal answer to that question is first to support PM. Really! Call making is not a profitable venture for me. I don't make calls to make money. I enjoy making things with my hands and I enjoy it when others like what I have made. So to me, paying the money is worthwhile. It helps keep PM here and that is the main goal. As a bonus, I get to show off some calls and even sell a few. Not a bad deal.

One more thing. Randy Black, who is one of the pricnipals at PM, just happens to be a friend of mine. We live about 20 minutes apart. We do not get to see each other as often as I would like, but I do enjoy the times we spend together. There have been questions asked, publicly and to me personally about compensation those who run PM may or may not get. The main theme of these questions seem to be, if we are asked for donations, why are they getting paid? Randy and I have discussed this and he has assured me that nobody here gets a cent for what they do to run the board. I believe him. I have no reason not to. Why would he need it? He has that cushy job at the Govm't cheese shack! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif So basically what I am saying is that I am confident that all the money raised here is used to run PM and the yearly hunt. PM has my continued support.

My last thought is for the moderators. If someone has a problem with not abiding with the rules, handle the dispute in private. If they need to be asked to leave, that should be a private matter also. That way I think a lot of the emotions might be avoided.

So, there ya have it. Hope it makes sense. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Paul
 
I think I can best sum up my concern with this whole issue with a question:
Is PM more concerned about money from advertising or the free exchange of information?

Preventing people from talking about sellers that aren't advertisers is blocking information exchange.
Preventing people from posting a pic of the first call that they've made so they can ask for tips is blocking information exchange.

I say, get rid of HOB, make a Hand Call Sales forum. Each seller can have one thread and only one thread to advertise in, delete old stuff from their own threads as needed. If the sellers don't mind the HOB fee, then they shouldn't mind making a donation. No ads in the Hand Call forum.

PM has to decide, information exchange or money.
 
Are the rules B.S.? Yes to some degree they are.

I understand the need for rules but PM has an invisible "line" that is very rigid, yet some members can "cross" it at will. By posting questions or comments about any rules, rule changes or by stating opinions that differ from the powers that be can and has brought critism and banning. I choose NOT to post often at PM as I DO like most of the members and I DO learn from them, but I am not sure where the line is. Awhile back I thought I wanted to make some calls for friend and family, but thought if I posted my progress and showed pictures while asking questions that I would be banned.

If you read Mr. Cronks post #52146191 you will see how this "line" can be construed as "crossed".

"with the Cronk mouthpiece had prior permission to post the photo"
"was once a paid up Hobby call maker"
"recently bought a new lathe"
"he was finally set up the way he wanted to be"

I am not knocking or attacking the person for posting the picture or for letting everyone know he is making calls, but I am knocking the logic that says it is ok for a former HOB to announce and post pictures (and not assume he will start to sell again) but it is not ok for a complete beginner to post his pictures (and assume he will sell) without getting nailed to the cross. It looks and sounds like a good 'ol boys network, a "if you were ever in, you will always be in" typ or deal.
 
What if we just cleaned up the Hand Call Forum.

What if we just gave each Paying HOB a sticky at the top of the fourm where they could advertise their calls. One sticky per HOB Advertiser. This would be the place where the HOB Advertiser would conduct his business by posting pictures and get feedback from forum members. Anyone who is not interested in buying calls would simply have to scroll down a bit to get to the other post in the forum.

Don't allow advertising in general post in the forum. Hob Advertisers could put a link in thier signatures to their Sticky at the top of the forum, but have all business conducted in the individual HOB Advertisers sticky thread.

Let the members post pictures of calls they make, ask for and give advice about call making, or just show off thier collections in the rest of the forum.

We should all be honorable men and police ourselves in this matter. If it becomes obvious that a member is posting pictures in the general forum who is not a HOB Advertiser and is selling calls on the sly, that situation should be submitted to one of the Moderators with eveidence supported by E mail or links to post in other forums or web sites and then, once confirmed, that member should have his posting priviledges revoked.

In addition, allow a member post a picture of a call he got from a call maker that is not a HOB advertiser as long as there is no contact information given for that call maker in the post.

In reality, if a member wants to buy a call from someone who is not a HOB Advertiser, they are going to do it anyway by finding them on one of the other boards.

Right now, there are as many people selling calls who are not HOB Advertisers as there are. They simply sell on the other boards. It is pretty easy to circumvent the PM HOB rules by posting somwhere else if you want too.

It's not a perfect solution but it will get the Hand Call Forum back on track, give some status and benefit to the HOB Advertisers by having their own sticky at the top of the page, and not cost the board any money in creating a new forum.

Any thoughts??
 
I agree with most of your post.
This is one part that will cause problems. Right now PM is a little too focused on protecting their advertisers, so they're afraid to do this.

Quote:
Let the members post pictures of calls they make, ask for and give advice about call making, or just show off thier collections in the rest of the forum.




I do think that we should be able to post contact info for other call makers. Why force someone to go hunt them down on the net when you can just give them the info. I guess you could just message them the info....

I guess if you gave HOB's stickies for advertising then didn't allow non-HOB call makers to advertise themselves, that would be a good setup.
You just can't tell us that we can't praise this new call we bought from someone that's not a HOB, it's not reasonable.
In the electronic calls forum, do you lock posts praising WT callers and providing contact info? I don't think he's a sponsor. That's pretty much the same as locking a thread praising some other hand call maker that's not a HOB.
 
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