Are PM's advertising rules B.S?

I wasn't going to touch this topic with a ten foot pole, as it's a No-Win situation, but here we go....


On the topic of HOB Advertiser Membership:

I've been posting calls for a couple of years now. I did it before the HOB Advertiser rule, I did it after the HOB rule, I got spanked by Mr. Cronk, I joined the HOB, and I continue to post calls.

I was reluctant to join the HOB membership. Spending $50 of hard earned money was tough for me, especially when I was giving most of my calls away, at the time. But, I must say that it was the best thing I've done. I've clearly sold more calls on this board, than all other websites combined (including my personal site), excluding eBay.

Posting calls on PM has allowed new hobby call builders to show off their work to the massive amount of followers of this site. If Predator Masters sets a rule, I'll review it. If I agree with it, I'll abide. If not, I'll leave the site. It's that simple. It's all about free will, on both sides of the fence.

I've stewed for months trying to come up with an idea/suggestion to get rid of the need for HOB membership for PM users. I have yet to find a way for us, as call builders, to offset the $1275 that Predator Masters is gathering from HOB to help cover server costs.


On the topic of PM Rules being treated fairly:

This is a sticky one. I've seen the rules being applied fairly and non-fairly. It's all about human judgement, and I wouldn't want to be the one having to scan all the posts and passing judgement.

Unless, the website software is changed to remove the posting ability of Image and URL tags for non HOB members, this will continue to be an issue. There will always be some moderator stepping and enforcing the rules...as they should.


On the topic of the Hand Call section:

It's been reported of that there are "huge amounts of Spamming" and the the Hand Call section "looks like a swap meet". I infact, am responsible for part of that.

I enjoy the "family" that I have on Predator Masters. I look forward to posting a photo of something new I created. I do the same thing at home. I run in the house and tell my wife, with the same enthusiasm, evertime I created a new howler or distress call.

I also enjoy, the friendly competition to come up with great creations. An unspoken challenge among friends to outdo each other. No different than trying to catch a bigger fish, shoot a bigger buck, or knocking your buddy's double ringer off the horseshoe post. What comes out of it? Absolutely beatiful calls. Great sounding calls. Who benefits is the callers. The calls being posted are getting better and better each year. Callers can pick up a gorgeous piece of artwork, that works, for a very very cheap price. If someone wants to buy one, they can and will. If not, it's all for everyone to admire. Nowhere can someone view such a selection of 'fresh of the work bench' calls and have it in their hands in a few days, for the little cost that we sell our calls for, than on Predator Masters. A bit of time spent on duck call sites, will proof this.

I stand in awe when each HOB member posts something new. I am not a collector, but am starting to get a pretty significant collection from these guys. I jump on and buy a call when I catches my eye as something different. Almost all of these purchases and swaps were on this site.

This time, last year, I didn't even bother going to this site. During the off season (March through September), usage of this site traditionally goes in the dump. I bet I didn't go to the site over 10 times during that period. I'm actually proud that this year, things are different. New call builders are posting great creations. I've seen a bunch of posts, emails, and had multiple conversations on the phone, that people are addicted to the Hand Call section. They check it multiple times a day, just for the sake of seeing the next post of from someone saying, "Check out I what I just created...."

I would like to see the web traffic statistics for the Hand Call section for the past 6 months, in comparison, to this time last year. I believe the momentum of "spamming" for "swap meets" are a good thing for this site and it's ranking.

I've watched the site change over the past few years. If this is what the Hand Call section is morphing into, then GREAT for Predator Masters. A bigger following of people equals bigger advertisers.

Unless I trim down my call selection to a couple of models, with a handfull of woods or horn colors to choose from, I will continue to post new creations, as they are built.


In closing:

I plan on building custom howlers and calls for the next 30 years or so. Of which time, I plan on being a Predator Master member and advertiser. If I decide to take this venture past the "hobby" status, I would upgrade to full advertising on Predator Masters.

In addition, I agree with Paul on the separate section, splitting HOB from general hand call questions. This should cost PM not a dime to add the new sub-forum.

Sincerely...Tony Tebbe
 
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River Runner & Staff,

FWIW, PM is the BEST Predator-site I've found. Hope everything gets ironed out & no one leaves or quits posting.
Especially pics! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Personally, I haven't sent in any [support] as of yet. But will do so in the near future. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
Quote:
In addition, I agree with Paul on the separate section, splitting HOB from general hand call questions. This should cost PM not a dime to add the new sub-forum.



I don't know about the cost issue, but a seperate forum sounds like a good idea to me. I did really enjoy reading other things in the hand call forum before we all swamped it with our calls for sale. A seperate forum for HOB calls could give us the best of both worlds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
It would only work if the same rules apply about posting pictures. The "general hand call section" would have to be enforced to be general questions and advice about using hand calls, collecting hand calls, etc...

Otherwise, we're back to where we started...


PS. To proof something from my comments about far more traffic to the Hand Call section this year -vs- last year:

Hand Call Posts from 1 year ago.

You'll note that over 1 month's of posts and replys fits on ONE page. Today, 2 or 3 days of activity consumes 1 page, as well as, all posts have over 50 reads. Also, what's kinda neat is Al's first call post.

Thanks...Tony
 
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Quote:
The award was presented at the hunt and the following speech was presented by Bill Gardner of Extreme Dimension Wildlife Calls:


"I think the best way to describe Wills dream is to use his own words. The following is a combination of two emails sent to my wife, Tasha and myself by Will Craig in February of this past year.
Will wrote: “I have a proposal for you guys.
I’ve registered the domain name of Predator Masters. I am trying to implement a long held dream of mine: an organization exclusively for predator callers. So far there isn’t such a beast and I think the sport of predator calling has increased to the point where it would support such a concept. You know, something similar the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation but for predator callers.
I’m in the process of designing a new website for Predator Masters and think a forum for the site is vital. I propose to you that since you already have a board, that we transfer it over to Predator Masters. We list you guys as the sponsor for the board and try to attract other predator calling related products and services advertising.
If you agree, I’d like to recruit some of those whom I consider to be the top in their field when it comes to calling or knowledge about predators to act as moderators. Once everything is in place, we’d generate a massive mailing list to make predator callers aware of the new site.
We could also have a quarterly edition of an online magazine that addresses all calling subjects, reloading, new products, etc.
Yes there are some good boards out there already, so why Predator Masters?
I’ve noticed several things about predator callers but they all seem to have the overwhelming trait of loyalty to certain things like, the message board they visit, the particular caller they use, rifle, camo, etc.
I firmly believe that predator callers want to belong to something that they can contribute to and support, and something that will support them in return. The message boards give them such a place but the identification stops the minute they logoff the board. The assorted message boards out there are basically like one’s favorite watering hole where people get together and swap a few stories and then they all go their own way.
I envision Predator Masters as a sport specific organization with the intent of promoting and protecting the sport of predator calling throughout North America. My dream includes a web site full of "how to information," "state by state info, political issues, and an online magazine. Also in time promotional items like hats, decals, membership cards, etc. predator callers would fight to get their hands on such things because there is nothing out there yet that gives callers the type of identity I envision. Paid Predator Master members would be given discounts on calls, and other items, from vendors wanting to increase their web sales.
On the subject of the message board, I intend to recruit the best of the best as moderators. I think the board should be the A to Z in predator calling and calling big game animals. I’d like to develop a method where we could contact a vast number of predator callers, via email, to attract them to the site once its up and running. I think a web site that offers the best in design, graphics, and content, I conjunction with the message board, will blow the others off the map in a short period of time.
I think the mission of Predator Masters should be to inform callers on the various calling methods and the equipment used and let the individual caller makeup their own mind as to which product they buy. Predator Masters must promote the sport of calling and that includes the promotion of equipment that makes the sport possible. Personally, I think there is enough room for all equipment makers to become part of the equation. I think it is in the best interest for all call makers to unite behind Predator Masters because political unity is needed to address the concerns of the industry; issues that often effect the predator caller will impact the call maker down the road. The gun-makers and reloading industry have such an organization to protect their interest, so why not the call making folks?

Yes there are many things to think about and discuss, I know I don’t have all the answers, but merely this dream that I’ve held to myself for a long time. This was the original intent of the Shade Tree and Posse Country but everyone keeps waiting for someone else to do something. I realize that I can’t do it by myself but with the help of a few we should be able to attract others to join our cause.”


 
I have read and re-read Wills statement a couple of times.

Has anyone realized just how close to his dream we have come?

What is happening with the hand call forum is a good thing.If you don't think the call companies aren't checking this site, then take a look at what they are selling this season. Will Primos has taken us to heart with his predator master and duck master kits.They are watching this forum and using it.


The friendly competition of the HOB call makers is begining to dictate what is going on in the industry.The versatility and dependabilty of these calls are making folks take heed.We also discuss the calls they already made and they are making the changes needed to get our aproval. What one call company does they all soon follow suit. Knight and Hale has produced their first open reed howler this season.

Even predator hunters who have never heard of us are benefiting from what is going on here. We are begining to dictate the way of big bussiness.

Until recently predator calls have been left at the wayside. Everyone that produced calls made a few simple designs that would call a predator. They based their bussiness where there was no competition for the better mousetrap. There was no real need for quality because predator hunters were few and far between. They didn't worry that a call locked up under pressure or that it was able to create a wide variety of sound.

WE are here NOW!! This sport is still in it's infancy and growing by leaps and bounds just like a child. This growing competition is creating a new group of call makers that are looking to perfect the mousetrap. Barrel designs are changing to fit the hand and stop lockup if possible. Open reed mouthpieces are undergoing changes that make them far more versatile to reach a wider variety of predators. If a reed or mouthpiece doesn't fit the standards it is thrown out with the trash and a new one is sought.A call must be easily blown and used by anyone out there regaurdless of their health and abilties.

The rules created for this forum are weeding out the wannabe's from the want too's.The rules are creating the inovators in a new industry.Jay pointed out that callmakers need to mark the calls they make in some way, someone from this group may be the next JS , Burhnam Bro or Weems.

The rules are made, lets follow them and see what contiues to develope! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif Jimmie
 
Let me say first that I totally agree that rules have to be laid down then secondly enforced. Although the rules don't have to be liked they have to be enforced or they aren't rules. While some people do not agree with them others do. I personally don't see anything wrong with posting pics of calls that you have made for pure enjoyment. If you are posting them with intent to sell & it is pretty obvious if they are then actions should be taken.

Now the way it was handled.....

IMHO this was handled very poorly. I have been in a management position where I work for 5 years now. I would be ashamed of myself if I would have reacted to somebody like the way Rich Cronk did. I have problems with workers all the time where I have to correct them. I would NEVER and I say NEVER do it in front of everyone to see. That is not only rude but disrespectful & VERY unprofessional. After I saw that I just couldn't believe that it wasn't handled in private. I have zero respect for anybody that handles themselves in a manner like that.

I haven't been around here very long as you can see but I started looking back through some of the posts to see just how often this happens & I saw one that I couldnt tell much difference between it & the post in question. Here's the link http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...page=3#52141640

Now I will say that I don't know much about this stuff but I didn't see HOB next to the posters name but he was still allowed to post pictures of calls he made. A mod. even made a post on the thread & never mentioned anything about it. I didn't see much difference between the two threads myself.

If somebody can tell me the difference please do because I just cant see it.
 
Brokenspoke, the major diferences in the two post are the fact that the one you brought up states that they were designs, unfinished and no mention at all of any kind of transaction.Specifically not for sale!

The post in question states a transaction of some type. Shows a finished call. And it gives a contact address.

The moderators of this board are for the most part self employed or retired. Most have never been in managemant positions. Every once in a while in today's society toes must be stepped on in order to get the point across. They have to make a judgement call based on their knowledge and life experiences.IMHO, These gentlemen have done a fantastic job of caring for this board. They have made this board a safe haven for the family to come in and learn. Jimmie
 
Jimmie, Excellent post!

If the Hand Call section is morphing into what you are describing, then I see that as an awesome thing to the sport and Predator Masters.

Tony
 
Jimmie, I agree that toes do have to be stepped on but maybe in a more discreet manner not in public. That's the only real issue I had was the way it was handled. I myself have no problem with rules or for the most part the people who enforce them. I've been looking on the internet for a site like this for a long time & I will say this is one of the few that is by far an outstanding site. The administration & moderators do an excellent job in keeping this site going & I respect them for that. I have bought two custom calls from two of the call makers on here. I bought one from Timbertoes & one from Pilgrim on Earth. I must say they are absolutely beautiful. I'm getting ready to head to Nebraska for a 3 day Prairie dog shoot & am going to try to call up some yotes with these two calls. I will have pics!!!!!!......lol.

Jimmie I can kinda see the difference between the posts now that you put it like that. I just wasn't seeing it like that. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

Like I said I just think it could have been handled a bit more professionaly than it was. But that's just MHO.

Any ways......I'm all packed & ready to go to Nebraska for the weekend so I hope ya'll have a great weekend. I'll post some pics in the predator & varmint sections when I get back.


cya'll later
 
brokespoke,
After five whole years in management, you have still not learned to never say never? You just attacked me in a public forum, right here for everyone to see. Oh but YOU would never do something like that now would you? LOL Brokespoke.
-------
"I would be ashamed of myself if I would have reacted to somebody like the way Rich Cronk did. I have problems with workers all the time where I have to correct them. I would NEVER and I say NEVER do it in front of everyone to see. That is not only rude but disrespectful & VERY unprofessional. After I saw that I just couldn't believe that it wasn't handled in private. I have zero respect for anybody that handles themselves in a manner like that."
---------
How is your self respect now Mr. Brokespoke? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The member in question broke the rules, it was not the first time and he had been warned about this practice before. Part of my job as moderator is to enforce the rules. I will probably get a severe pay cut for saying what I just did in this post, but I was just doing my job. No more, no less.
 
See that's where the difference is Mr. Rich Cronk. I'm not in a management position on this board as you are. Therefore what I say on this board has nothing to do with being a manager and never will be. I still have never & will never do anything like than in a management position. Take your blinders off and maybe you can see that. Some people will never learn.

And as far as self respect goes Mr. Rich Cronk, mine is far better than yours as far as I can see.
 
Question?
Rich I see in your last post a statement that: "The member in question broke the rules, it was not the first time"

This is the first I have heard of this, if it is true that the member had been warned previously, my entire view of this minor event will change.

We have been shown the rules now, we have been told why they are what they are, so lets play by them and move on.
Carl
 
brokenspoke,
You say one thing and turn right around and do the opposite. It is right there for everyone to see. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif You have a right to your own opinion though.
 
I have a question for Rich Cronk...............Do you feel that you handled this situation the best possible way?

I quote Paul..............
"Not exactly. Richard G. posted some pictures of some calls he made and said that he wanted to trade them with other makers. Cronk told him he couldn't do that. RG said that they weren't for sale, only for trade. Cronk called him a liar (maybe not in those exact words, but that was what he meant). So RG backed off. Then another person posts a picture of 2 calls he made. One of them happened to have a mouthpiece made by Cronk. Not a peep out of Cronk. What gives? As long as you use a Cronk mouthpiece, the rules don't apply?"
Still no answer to this question either!!!


Why handle this situation differently???? Quoteing Paul again..........
"I had a little problem with a post I made a while back. It was determined that it did not fall within guidelines. Weasel contacted me through the PM system and explained the way things should be. It was done in private between two grown men. No name calling. No personal attacks. The way it should be."
Oh wait Weasel was the one that handled the situation in a professional manner that time. SOMEONE might need to take some notes from Weasel.

Paul you make two outstanding points and I personally appreciate you taking the time to share them with EVERYONE.
 
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Guys,

Can we get this post back on track? I would like to see resolution to the HOB issue. Moderator or personal/personality issues are another topic. I don't want to offend anyone, but enough lashing on both sides of the fence.

I think it's a good thing that Predator Masters has created this thread to basically ask for everyone's opinion on the topic of the rules.

I hope that the rules are modified and/or documented and we can move on.

Thanks...Tony
 
I agree with Tony!!

Do we modify the rules? In my persoanl opinion , no.

Do we create a forum for selling calls and ascotiated products? Do we have the abilty to do so without adding expense?

One of you can reach up and turn Dennis off any time now. I have to get back in the gardens. Jimmie
 
Quote:
I have a question for Rich Cronk...............Do you feel that you handled this situation the best possible way?

I quote Paul..............
"Not exactly. Richard G. posted some pictures of some calls he made and said that he wanted to trade them with other makers. Cronk told him he couldn't do that. RG said that they weren't for sale, only for trade. Cronk called him a liar (maybe not in those exact words, but that was what he meant). So RG backed off. Then another person posts a picture of 2 calls he made. One of them happened to have a mouthpiece made by Cronk. Not a peep out of Cronk. What gives? As long as you use a Cronk mouthpiece, the rules don't apply?"
Still no answer to this question either!!!





Why handle this situation differently???? Quoteing Paul again..........
"I had a little problem with a post I made a while back. It was determined that it did not fall within guidelines. Weasel contacted me through the PM system and explained the way things should be. It was done in private between two grown men. No name calling. No personal attacks. The way it should be."
Oh wait Weasel was the one that handled the situation in a professional manner that time. SOMEONE might need to take some notes from Weasel.

Paul you make two outstanding points and I personally appreciate you taking the time to share them with EVERYONE.


Mr Cronk! You still there?
 
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I have typed this several times and deleted it. I am going to post it this time.

I had never been to a forum of any kind till a picture of me was posted here by Byron South. I came to see it and decided to join so that I could post my comments on the board. As I was registering I read the rules of the site.
As some here know I have a tool that is for reloaders. I invented it and applied for a patent. Within the first week a question was asked in the relaoding forum that dealt specifically with what this tool does. I wanted to tell the person that posted the question about my tool. The first thing I did was to contact several of the moderators through a PM to ask if I could respond with the information.
River Runner was a delight to deal with. Since I didnt have a web site and didnt have a per se business set up yet, he advised me that they would see waht could be done. He also let me post to that thread explaining what the tool did. Within a week he had devised a plan for me to advertise here. I was put in an EAA account. I gladly paid my dues and have made it back several times over.

The point I am trying to make here is I didnt try to swap the tool for reloading supplies. I didnt try to tell the guy behind the screen, using a PM, that I had a tool for sale. I had read the rules. I knew what they said. I knew in order for me to recieve compensation(either in money or trade) for an Item, I had to abide by the rules.
After enjoying this site, I have registered on several other sites. This is the one I allways come back to. The people on here are funny, informative and a pleasure to be around. The moderators on here are informative and in my opinion have done a good job. I can not imagine how one post can create this much attention.
This site has caused me some problems also. I am behind in my loading room because I spend too much time on here. I spent way too much money going on a Prairie dog hunt/vacation due to being a member here.
I will finish by saying, Moderators keep up the good work. Members abide by the rules. If you are posting in order to receive compensation, or haveing someone else to post in order for you to recieve compensation, then deep down you know you are wrong. We dont need more rules, we need to abide by the ones we have and enforce them. This is much like we dont need more gun laws, we need to enforce the ones we have.
That is all. Randy
 
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