Brandon Denogean
New member
so how many pellets is ideal to be in a a 10 in circle or say 8 in at 40 and 50 yds?
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NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy...
- Thread starter GC
- Start date
Originally Posted By: Brandon Denogeanso how many pellets is ideal to be in a a 10 in circle or say 8 in at 40 and 50 yds?
GC wrote in the first part of this topic:
"Byron South and I have discussed this, we both feel you need at least five solid hits for reliable kills. I don't believe in the "magic pellet" and hoping for one or two lucky pellet strikes. Many of these new fangled hi-tech loads have the pellet energy for five good hits to reliably kill coyotes at long range. But can you get the pattern out there..."
GC wrote in the first part of this topic:
"Byron South and I have discussed this, we both feel you need at least five solid hits for reliable kills. I don't believe in the "magic pellet" and hoping for one or two lucky pellet strikes. Many of these new fangled hi-tech loads have the pellet energy for five good hits to reliably kill coyotes at long range. But can you get the pattern out there..."
Rich Cronk
New member
Originally Posted By: leebrownI'm still sold on Federal Flite control buckshot. Today I tried the 12ga. 3" 00 buck @30 yds., Stoeger M2000, 26" barrel, factory cyl. choke tube. All you need for these loads are an open choke, no buying all these expensive aftermarket tubes.
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I would like to see photo's of your patterns at 40 and 50 yards. Thirty yard patterns don't tell a man much.
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I would like to see photo's of your patterns at 40 and 50 yards. Thirty yard patterns don't tell a man much.
GC
Well-known member
Lee, I use the same Federal Flite Control 00 Buck in the 2 ¾” nine pellet loads in my M1S90 Benelli Tactical 18 ½” barrel with a modified factory choke for home defense. It keeps an 8” – 10” pattern at point of aim at 25 yards. Modified choke patterned best for me of all the chokes. It would work well enough for short range coyotes but lacks pattern density for really best effect. I could not reliably kill a coyote beyond 30 yards with it because of the rapidly dispersing pattern and low pellet count. If all I had were short to mid-range shots, while it would work I would strongly prefer something with more pellets. Coyotes don’t require 00 Buck to knock them down. Good old Number Four Buck or the Federal 1 7/8 ounce lead BB load puts a lot more pellets on the target and are just as, if not more, effective at those short to mid-range yardages. If the cost isn’t a factor tungsten BB or T-shot is just about a perfect combination and just shreds them inside. Number Four Buck or tungsten BB/T's also have the ability to reach out there and do the work at longer ranges with good pattern density and penetration when choked properly if that is needed in a particular hunting situation.
Rich Cronk
New member
GC,
I agree with you regarding what you said in above post. Have you tried 3" Federal flight control fodder in smaller than 00 BUCK ?
I am wondering how well that stuff holds up at 40-50 yards.
I agree with you regarding what you said in above post. Have you tried 3" Federal flight control fodder in smaller than 00 BUCK ?
I am wondering how well that stuff holds up at 40-50 yards.
Rich Cronk
New member
Originally Posted By: GCRich, I have not used the Flight Control Four Buck load. I have shot some of the turkey loads with the Flite Control. Finicky...
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Finicky? Now THAT is what I call an honest answer.
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Finicky? Now THAT is what I call an honest answer.
GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: LARUEminati
Patternmaster Code Black Turkey Choke (updated with range report)
Thank you for the contribution to the thread. This quote is interesting...
Quote:The choke has a .665” ID and also has three “stud” rings on the inside that from what I understand are proprietary to Patternmaster.
Indian Creek has been using rings in their chokes for years now, though I believe Indian Creek uses five rings in their chokes.
Patternmaster Code Black Turkey Choke (updated with range report)
Thank you for the contribution to the thread. This quote is interesting...
Quote:The choke has a .665” ID and also has three “stud” rings on the inside that from what I understand are proprietary to Patternmaster.
Indian Creek has been using rings in their chokes for years now, though I believe Indian Creek uses five rings in their chokes.
LARUEminati
New member
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: LARUEminati
Patternmaster Code Black Turkey Choke (updated with range report)
Thank you for the contribution to the thread. This quote is interesting...
Quote:The choke has a .665” ID and also has three “stud” rings on the inside that from what I understand are proprietary to Patternmaster.
Indian Creek has been using rings in their chokes for years now, though I believe Indian Creek uses five rings in their chokes.
Good to know I'll have to check them out. I was just going off Patternmasters website where they say the studs were their patented "wad-stripping" technology that's why I said it was "my understanding" that it was proprietary to them. I think patternmaster also uses the 5 stud rings aswell just not in this particular choke.
Patternmaster Code Black Turkey Choke (updated with range report)
Thank you for the contribution to the thread. This quote is interesting...
Quote:The choke has a .665” ID and also has three “stud” rings on the inside that from what I understand are proprietary to Patternmaster.
Indian Creek has been using rings in their chokes for years now, though I believe Indian Creek uses five rings in their chokes.
Good to know I'll have to check them out. I was just going off Patternmasters website where they say the studs were their patented "wad-stripping" technology that's why I said it was "my understanding" that it was proprietary to them. I think patternmaster also uses the 5 stud rings aswell just not in this particular choke.
CrazyHorse66
New member
Reposting patterns from Federal LE1321B 15 pellet Flight Control #1 buck.
I posted these over a year ago.
So far, leebrown is the only one I've noticed who is picking up what I'm laying down....
At 45 yards, I don't think there is a round with more killing power (outside of a slug) that has the pattern density required for coyotes.
45 yards:
30 yards:
60 yards:
18.5" fixed modified Remington 870:
I posted these over a year ago.
So far, leebrown is the only one I've noticed who is picking up what I'm laying down....
At 45 yards, I don't think there is a round with more killing power (outside of a slug) that has the pattern density required for coyotes.
45 yards:
30 yards:
60 yards:
18.5" fixed modified Remington 870:
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
I like more pellets in my coyote loads.
The paper these patterns were shot on was 22" X 28" so both of the above patterns are right at 20" wide at 40 yards.
The paper these patterns were shot on was 22" X 28" so both of the above patterns are right at 20" wide at 40 yards.
CrazyHorse66
New member
Originally Posted By: derbyacresbobI like more pellets in my coyote loads.
I understand DAB.
But can you see my point?
Over half your load is out side the 12" @ 40 yds.
All of the #1 Buck is inside 12" @ 45 yds.
The #1 Buck will also have superior penetration at these distances and beyond, which we can both agree is of utmost importance in a long range shotgun/coyote load.
Penetration obviously trumps the number of hits at long range, or we'd all be shooting dove loads.
I wish I could field test the Federal load, but it is illegal to use for hunting coyotes in Oklahoma. I can only use it to defend my dogs from predation here at the house.
Maybe someone in a buckshot friendly state can give it a try?
More:
Assuming the HD BB is the 1.5 oz load and 73 pellets in the load....
1.5 oz = 656.25 grains / 73 = 8.9897 call it 9 gr per pellet
LE1321B is 38.83 grains each pellet X 15 pellets = 582.45 total grains.
Muzzle velocities (Since I don't have down ranges velocities)
1300(?) for HD BB
1095(real world chronograph out of an 18" barrel) for the LE1321B
Energy calculations
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175
Link to calculator
9 grains @ 1300fps yields 33.76 ft/lbs X number of hits (32)= 1080.32 ft/lbs
38.83 grains @ 1095fps yields 103.35ft/lbs X number of hits (15) = 1550.25 ft/lbs
So the pellets that hit inside 12" with HD BB left the muzzle with roughly 2/3 the energy that the LE1321B had when it left the muzzle.
Couple that with superior penetration of the larger shot (14-18 inches of penetration in calibrated gel tests vs < 14" with the HD BB) and you can see why I think this load is far superior at delivering killing power at these distances.
I understand DAB.
But can you see my point?
Over half your load is out side the 12" @ 40 yds.
All of the #1 Buck is inside 12" @ 45 yds.
The #1 Buck will also have superior penetration at these distances and beyond, which we can both agree is of utmost importance in a long range shotgun/coyote load.
Penetration obviously trumps the number of hits at long range, or we'd all be shooting dove loads.
I wish I could field test the Federal load, but it is illegal to use for hunting coyotes in Oklahoma. I can only use it to defend my dogs from predation here at the house.
Maybe someone in a buckshot friendly state can give it a try?
More:
Assuming the HD BB is the 1.5 oz load and 73 pellets in the load....
1.5 oz = 656.25 grains / 73 = 8.9897 call it 9 gr per pellet
LE1321B is 38.83 grains each pellet X 15 pellets = 582.45 total grains.
Muzzle velocities (Since I don't have down ranges velocities)
1300(?) for HD BB
1095(real world chronograph out of an 18" barrel) for the LE1321B
Energy calculations
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175
Link to calculator
9 grains @ 1300fps yields 33.76 ft/lbs X number of hits (32)= 1080.32 ft/lbs
38.83 grains @ 1095fps yields 103.35ft/lbs X number of hits (15) = 1550.25 ft/lbs
So the pellets that hit inside 12" with HD BB left the muzzle with roughly 2/3 the energy that the LE1321B had when it left the muzzle.
Couple that with superior penetration of the larger shot (14-18 inches of penetration in calibrated gel tests vs < 14" with the HD BB) and you can see why I think this load is far superior at delivering killing power at these distances.
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DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
I tested some of that Fed #1 buck flight control. It shot inconsistent for me out of several chokes. Pattern size was inconsistent, some shells shot tight like a bullet, others were strung vertical etc. When it works right, it's down right impressive!
But more importantly, the POI varied from shot to shot. Multiple shots never impacted in the same place. One shot would be low, the next wide, then low again, then high, the wide and high. The load flies like a floater.
But more importantly, the POI varied from shot to shot. Multiple shots never impacted in the same place. One shot would be low, the next wide, then low again, then high, the wide and high. The load flies like a floater.
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
CrazyHorse, can you put up a paper plate at 40 yards and be certain the majority of your 15 pellets are going to hit it? Because my testing (with a red dot sight) shows the pattern may or may not hit the paper plate at 40 yards. Good pattern, but doesn't matter if the pattern has an inconsistent Point Of Impact.
I ditched it for #4 buck, more pellets on target consistenty.
I ditched it for #4 buck, more pellets on target consistenty.
CrazyHorse66
New member
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGCrazyHorse, can you put up a paper plate at 40 yards and be certain the majority of your 15 pellets are going to hit it?
My pattern size did vary somewhat. The picture I posted was of median size. The following pictures were taken while sighting in and with some flinching involved as the session progressed.
Again these are @ 45 yds.
Tight tight tight! This was my first shot before sight adjustment. It was cantaloupe sized everything in 9":
More sight adjustment. 12 hits in 12".
A little stringing. One more sight adjustment. 8 in 12".
Pattern centered. Opens up a little. Consistent pattern though..
BooYah! That's a gem..
A little stringing, but centered. I flinched a little here.
12 in 12"
Once sight adjustments were made, the patterns were on POA.
Another shooting session showed 2 out of 10 patterns opening up, 2 out of 10 on POA with some stringing, the rest on POA with good uniform patterns.
Even the patterns that opened up were capable of real world killing.
Outside of flinching, the patterns go to POA.
If I had 10 coyotes inside 45 yds with one shot each and I would be bold enough to say that 9 would go down and one would get lucky.
Give me two good shots and nothing gets out alive.
I had the confidence to drop the one I posted above @ 60 yards.
He went down with one shot but was still sucking air. I finished him off with the bayonet after my dog worked him over good.
That makes me one for one on coyotes with this load.
My pattern size did vary somewhat. The picture I posted was of median size. The following pictures were taken while sighting in and with some flinching involved as the session progressed.
Again these are @ 45 yds.
Tight tight tight! This was my first shot before sight adjustment. It was cantaloupe sized everything in 9":
More sight adjustment. 12 hits in 12".
A little stringing. One more sight adjustment. 8 in 12".
Pattern centered. Opens up a little. Consistent pattern though..
BooYah! That's a gem..
A little stringing, but centered. I flinched a little here.
12 in 12"
Once sight adjustments were made, the patterns were on POA.
Another shooting session showed 2 out of 10 patterns opening up, 2 out of 10 on POA with some stringing, the rest on POA with good uniform patterns.
Even the patterns that opened up were capable of real world killing.
Outside of flinching, the patterns go to POA.
If I had 10 coyotes inside 45 yds with one shot each and I would be bold enough to say that 9 would go down and one would get lucky.
Give me two good shots and nothing gets out alive.
I had the confidence to drop the one I posted above @ 60 yards.
He went down with one shot but was still sucking air. I finished him off with the bayonet after my dog worked him over good.
That makes me one for one on coyotes with this load.
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derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66Originally Posted By: derbyacresbobI like more pellets in my coyote loads.
I understand DAB.
But can you see my point?
Over half your load is out side the 12" @ 40 yds.
All of the #1 Buck is inside 12" @ 45 yds.
The #1 Buck will also have superior penetration at these distances and beyond, which we can both agree is of utmost importance in a long range shotgun/coyote load.
Penetration obviously trumps the number of hits at long range, or we'd all be shooting dove loads.
I wish I could field test the Federal load, but it is illegal to use for hunting coyotes in Oklahoma. I can only use it to defend my dogs from predation here at the house.
Maybe someone in a buckshot friendly state can give it a try?
More:
Assuming the HD BB is the 1.5 oz load and 73 pellets in the load....
1.5 oz = 656.25 grains / 73 = 8.9897 call it 9 gr per pellet
LE1321B is 38.83 grains each pellet X 15 pellets = 582.45 total grains.
Muzzle velocities (Since I don't have down ranges velocities)
1300(?) for HD BB
1095(real world chronograph out of an 18" barrel) for the LE1321B
Energy calculations
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175
Link to calculator
9 grains @ 1300fps yields 33.76 ft/lbs X number of hits (32)= 1080.32 ft/lbs
38.83 grains @ 1095fps yields 103.35ft/lbs X number of hits (15) = 1550.25 ft/lbs
So the pellets that hit inside 12" with HD BB left the muzzle with roughly 2/3 the energy that the LE1321B had when it left the muzzle.
Couple that with superior penetration of the larger shot (14-18 inches of penetration in calibrated gel tests vs < 14" with the HD BB) and you can see why I think this load is far superior at delivering killing power at these distances.
I want a wider pattern to make it easier to hit a running coyote at 40 to 50 yards. The HD BB size pellets will penetrate deep enough to kill coyotes out farther than the pattern will hold up.
If I can shoot a deadly 20" wide pattern instead of a deadly 8" wide pattern I will choose the wider pattern every time.
I really don't want my shotgun to shoot like a rifle.
I don't need anymore penetration than what the HD BBs give me to kill coyotes and I really like the fact that I can put more pellets on the target.
If fifteen #1 buck shot pellets each penetrate 18" into gel that would be a total of 270" of potential penetration.
If 73 Rem HD pellets each penetrate 14" into gel that would be a total of 1022" of potential penetration.
I understand DAB.
But can you see my point?
Over half your load is out side the 12" @ 40 yds.
All of the #1 Buck is inside 12" @ 45 yds.
The #1 Buck will also have superior penetration at these distances and beyond, which we can both agree is of utmost importance in a long range shotgun/coyote load.
Penetration obviously trumps the number of hits at long range, or we'd all be shooting dove loads.
I wish I could field test the Federal load, but it is illegal to use for hunting coyotes in Oklahoma. I can only use it to defend my dogs from predation here at the house.
Maybe someone in a buckshot friendly state can give it a try?
More:
Assuming the HD BB is the 1.5 oz load and 73 pellets in the load....
1.5 oz = 656.25 grains / 73 = 8.9897 call it 9 gr per pellet
LE1321B is 38.83 grains each pellet X 15 pellets = 582.45 total grains.
Muzzle velocities (Since I don't have down ranges velocities)
1300(?) for HD BB
1095(real world chronograph out of an 18" barrel) for the LE1321B
Energy calculations
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175
Link to calculator
9 grains @ 1300fps yields 33.76 ft/lbs X number of hits (32)= 1080.32 ft/lbs
38.83 grains @ 1095fps yields 103.35ft/lbs X number of hits (15) = 1550.25 ft/lbs
So the pellets that hit inside 12" with HD BB left the muzzle with roughly 2/3 the energy that the LE1321B had when it left the muzzle.
Couple that with superior penetration of the larger shot (14-18 inches of penetration in calibrated gel tests vs < 14" with the HD BB) and you can see why I think this load is far superior at delivering killing power at these distances.
I want a wider pattern to make it easier to hit a running coyote at 40 to 50 yards. The HD BB size pellets will penetrate deep enough to kill coyotes out farther than the pattern will hold up.
If I can shoot a deadly 20" wide pattern instead of a deadly 8" wide pattern I will choose the wider pattern every time.
I really don't want my shotgun to shoot like a rifle.
I don't need anymore penetration than what the HD BBs give me to kill coyotes and I really like the fact that I can put more pellets on the target.
If fifteen #1 buck shot pellets each penetrate 18" into gel that would be a total of 270" of potential penetration.
If 73 Rem HD pellets each penetrate 14" into gel that would be a total of 1022" of potential penetration.
CrazyHorse66
New member
I can't argue with your success Bob, but I'd sure like to see some people who know their way around a shotgun field trial some of this.
Incidentally, I never can find any calibrated gel testing with the HD BB from Remington.
The < 14" number came from ATK concerning the Federal HD Coyote stuff that is denser than the Remington.
They claim 14" but admitted that the gel was not calibrated with a BB, although the gel was mixed and chilled within the FBI specs.
From my email with ATK:
Quote:The gel was made and stored to the FBI protocol, but I highly doubt the gel was calibrated(shot with a BB) before conducting the test.
Regards,
Erik Carlson
Incidentally, I never can find any calibrated gel testing with the HD BB from Remington.
The < 14" number came from ATK concerning the Federal HD Coyote stuff that is denser than the Remington.
They claim 14" but admitted that the gel was not calibrated with a BB, although the gel was mixed and chilled within the FBI specs.
From my email with ATK:
Quote:The gel was made and stored to the FBI protocol, but I highly doubt the gel was calibrated(shot with a BB) before conducting the test.
Regards,
Erik Carlson
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
The Federal Heavyweight shot density is 15g/cc compared to the Rem HD shot that is 12g/cc density so the Rem HD BB penetration would be less penetration than the Federal Heavyweight BB pellets.
I have shot some coyotes with the Federal Heavyweight #2 shot and it is unreal.
I bought a bunch of the Federal Heavyweight 3" 1-1/4 oz #2 loads when Rodger's was closing them out at a very low price. I removed the shot from them and reloaded most of it into 3" Fiocchi hulls with 1-1/2 oz of shot.
On the Federal Heavyweight boxes it says that the Federal Heavyweight shot is 35% denser than lead.
The Rem HD #2 shot 1-1/2 oz loads had just over 120 pellets in each shell.
The Federal Heavyweight #2 shot loads that I reloaded with 1-1/2 oz of shot had just over 90 pellets in each shell.
The Federal Heavyweight shot is so dense I wouldn't want to shoot it in BB size. A federal Heavyweight BB 1-1/2 oz load may only have around 55 to 58 pellets in each shell compared to the Rem HD 1-1/2 oz BB load that would have 70 to 73 pellets in each shell.
I have shot some coyotes with the Federal Heavyweight #2 shot and it is unreal.
I bought a bunch of the Federal Heavyweight 3" 1-1/4 oz #2 loads when Rodger's was closing them out at a very low price. I removed the shot from them and reloaded most of it into 3" Fiocchi hulls with 1-1/2 oz of shot.
On the Federal Heavyweight boxes it says that the Federal Heavyweight shot is 35% denser than lead.
The Rem HD #2 shot 1-1/2 oz loads had just over 120 pellets in each shell.
The Federal Heavyweight #2 shot loads that I reloaded with 1-1/2 oz of shot had just over 90 pellets in each shell.
The Federal Heavyweight shot is so dense I wouldn't want to shoot it in BB size. A federal Heavyweight BB 1-1/2 oz load may only have around 55 to 58 pellets in each shell compared to the Rem HD 1-1/2 oz BB load that would have 70 to 73 pellets in each shell.