Coyote Offseason???

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do you have a problem killing does in novemeber who have fawns they havent weaned?



Who's your source of all this misinformation? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Biology lesson: There are no lactating does in November. In Oct/Nov the does are in estrus.

Fawns are born in May/June time frame. They are nursed for 5 weeks and weaned by 6 weeks after birth. Fawns tag along with mamma for about 2 years.

I thought "deer hunters" already knew this? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

(Sniff! Sniff! I still think I smell troll.) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Yep NASA, its starting to look like some of our expert deer hunters aren't so expert after all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I always get a kick out of it when I read the classic reason for killing coyotes year round is to save all the quail, rabbits, and other small game that would be extinct otherwise. I would have thought even most junior high level biologists knew that weather and range conditions have a MUCH bigger effect on small game populations than coyotes do.
 
That tends to be the case when 95% of what you know is heresay and only 5% is actual experience. Folks put way too much faith in folklore, old wives tales, urban legends, and the stories uncle Willie told you when you were 8 years old. Age doesn't always equate to experience, but it certainly provides the opportunity, should you decide to take advantage of it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
NASA, buddy let me give you a bit of advice. Stick to something that you know what your talking about. Your flat wrong on this. Do you know how many does i have shot that when I start to gut them, milk starts spraying out of their teets? Add that to the fact that i have seen fawns nursing right before season starts. We have a biologist on our lease from the state, and we have to document how many does are lactating for him that we kill. These does therefore dont start into heat until late december early january. Is it normal, no, but it sure as hell happens. We have fawns with spots as late as october some years. The cycle of a doe is so crazy, I even have shot does in november that have fully developed embryoes inside. In texas, does are in heat as early as october 15th, and as late as janurary 15th. Check next time before you say something like that.
 
Hey guy's i have allso killed wet does and seen friends that have killed wet does.
I hunt bow season and gun season to and in 20 years i have killed and seen 4 does that were wet.

I can see the reason for not killing yotes in the puping season but it depends on what your trying to do in your area.
Here in texas the hide dont get to be that good with not very cold winters. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif
 
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My deer hunting has been in northern CA, PA, UT and upstate NY. I've "heard" of wet does during season before, but it's so rare its considered just an anomaly. My BIL in AR takes a doe every year since the 80's, and he says he's never gotten a wet one.

I've never hunted Texas. Things must be really different down there if it's that common. You'd think the scientific community would point out that TX deer breeding season is out of sync with the rest of the nation. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif I wonder if FL has a similar phenomenon? Do you suppose it could it be latitude related?
 
Real common to get wet doe's in Colorado too...rifle, Archery and muzzle loading season. just the way it is I suppose............
 
NASA....Again, you are wrong. For some reason, does do lactate in November in Texas, I don't why they do, but I have seen it for years.
We are required by our game biologist to take a certain numbers of does each season based on the counts we do in the summer. I know for a fact that we take at least 3-4 does that are lactating each November, Why do I know this? Because the milk comes dribbling out of their teats when you hang them up on the skinning rack. We'll occasionally even find the fetus already developed.
Damn, why do you insist on personal attacks of people who post something you don't agree with?
Quit being so hardheaded and positive that you know everything related to hunting, world politics, and life in general, because you don't. We are all here to learn from each other.
 
Some breeding of whitetail does occurs into early February in Texas.A 7 month gestation period plus 6-8 weeks before weaning and it brings you to October.Sounds like wet does during hunting season in Texas is quite plausible.
 
Does being wet in November is irrelevent to the original question. A fawn born in late May early June can survive on its own by late summer. If the doe is shot by a hunter in October the fawn can still easily survive. Many states have deer seasons that begin in early September. To compare this to killing spring-early-summer coyotes is not close to being the same comparison. A correct comparison would be to go shoot a truck load of does in mid-june and than see if the fawns starve to death.

Latitude does make a difference in the timing of the breeding season. For a majority of the country if does are bred to late the fawns will not be big enough to make it through the following winter. Also having most of the does bred at the same time "floods" the area with newborn fawns at the same time the following June. This leads to less fawns being killed by predators. The breeding season is later in TX, but I doubt TX has a winter kill problem. I would be willing to bet that if you research it, you will find a few extreme southern states have this stretched out breeding season. For the rest of the country if the buck/doe ratio is somewhat in balance the majority of the breeding season takes place in November.
 
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Lonny,thanks for keeping this thread on track.Some of us lost sight of the original question.LOL.
As someone said earlier(crapshoot I think),this is a highly personal decision.I started hunting in 1962.With the exception of 1968-69 I have hunted every season since.Some say I was hunting those years also.I have seen an incredible decline in small game numbers and to a lesser extent a decline in the deer herd.I attribute much of the decline to the remarkable increase in the number of pedators since the mid-1960's.Thirty years ago it was almost unheard of for someone to see a coyote in my state.Eagles were on the endangered species list;I never saw one in the wild,in my state,until the 1990's.Other birds of prey were seen on occassion but not often.Trapping was still popular until the 1970's.Furbearing predators were kept in check.All of that,and more,has changed.Now when I go small game hunting I'm lucky to see anything to shoot at.I do see numerous birds of prey including eagles.It is now common to see fox,coyotes,raccoon,skunks,mink,possum,etc..
I am not foolish enough to blame the severe decline in the small game numbers only on the proliferation of predators but I do know they have contributed in a big way.
If the season in my state is ever abolished on predators I will be hunting them year around.I mean it's not like I will hurt their numbers anyway. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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Latitude does make a difference..... if you research it, you will find a few extreme southern states have this stretched out breeding season.



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif I took your advice and am wiser for the effort. My appologies if I offended anyone.

The whitetail’s breeding window is generally narrow in the North, where it's tightly regulated by photoperiod. North of 36 degrees latitude, most whitetails breed between October and mid-December. Peak breeding usually occurs in mid-November.

Between 30 and 36 degrees latitude, peak breeding occurs in November, but in areas between 28 and 30 degrees latitude not until December or January. Certain conditions can prolong the season as late as March.

Deer below 28 degrees latitude breed year-round because the equator provides no seasonal photoperiod cues.

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/info/news/sept04/3.html


Texas Parks and Wildlife Wildlife Biologists have done a study. The study showed that very few fawns are born late in Texas.

South Texas has the latest breeding period. Even there, fawns are born before August and are weaned by October.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/planning/rut_whitetailed_deer/
 
Tom- I'm glad you did your homework. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

I though I was going to have tell you otherwise.

I was involved in some that research. I can tell that most fawns are born in May-June, but more than a few are born in July, August, and yes even September.

State management plans do require lactation data as stated previously, and many are lactating until Thanksgiving or even later.

This past hunting season, I had a guy bring in a yearling doe (that means 1.5 years old and an often misused term) that had a fawn that weight a whopping 30 pounds LIVE weight. This was on Nov. 5th, in Northeast Texas not South Texas, and I can guarantee you that fawn was not weaned. I will try and post a picture here tomorrow. I'm not saying this is typical, but definately happens.
(edited to add picture)

Momma-baby.jpg


The rehabbers took in several fawns this last year that were born in August.


As is often the case, early born fawns (as this yearling doe most likely was since she breed as a fawn) end up being bred in January, and therefore have late born fawns.

As sex ratios become more skewed as is typical in overpopulated areas where bucks are the primary target, the rut becomes more spread out, and does are bred later. This results in late born fawns even among older does.

I observed one fawn this past Feb. that had been bred in mid January.

Back to the research.

Even in a small sample size there are those that showed up being breed in December and January.

table5.gif


Based on this graph (which was based on the research) breeding can be spread out over almost a 4 month period.
 
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Thanks YH for some good hard data! Sorry NASA if I sounded a little peeved, Didnt mean it personally, My wife has been getting on to me about staying on this website too damn much and I was a little hot when i responded! But back to the original post, Some parts of the country proabably do need a season as overkill by the gov't has decimated the population, Helping the ranchers out, but not leaving much for guys like us. I think it could possibly be more of a regional issue than a personal preference, as most peoples opinions on this have to do with the amount of yotes they see. Not everyone, I understand, as some just take issue with the fact that killing a wet yote can lead to a pretty bad death to some pups. But i think the guys that see plenty of coyotes feel a little easier hunting year round than some others do.
 
I guess I was deceived by the standardization of hunting seasons from Canada all the way down to south Texas. Since the rut starts so much later and runs longer the further south you go, you would think the TX wildlife department would have adjusted the hunting season to accommodate this variance?

Instead, general rifle opening day in TX is practically the same as it is in NH, ND, and WA. The archery seasons have a couple weeks difference, but the general rifle seasons all start just a few days apart in Nov. That kind of discrepancy just isn't logical to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

(edit) Unless, of course, it's all about the bucks. But they certainly could push the antlerless season out another month, right?
 
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I like Byron Souths view of hunting coyotes, we all have personal reasons for hunting them be it hides, videos, or just the one on one challenge of calling one in. When each one of us decide to do this is personal too. We are all selfish to one degree or the other for chosing when we participate in this activity. I hunt coyotes 24/7 365 for my own reasons, I dont need to justify it. You can kill 75% of a coyote population and still get back to 100% in one year, one pup crop even with guys denning and killing in the spring. I hunted the crap out of Northern Nevada and Im happy to report that the population of coyotes is as healthy as I have ever seen, but still dont hunt up there, its bad, real bad /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I think we all need to look at the reasons we hunt coyotes, we are all selfish to some degree be it hide hunting, fun hunting, filming. There is no need to justify it, we all row the same boat, we all want to make sure these awesome animals are plentifull for our own reasons. Lets remember it is the antihunters and people that are on the fence about hunting that we should be concerned about, not the guy out hunting whenever he gets the chance. If we all fight togther and not with each other we will get more accomplished. Huntem when you can, and good luck. Al.
 
NASA, Your right it is off and a little weird, However they do try a little bit, as the south texas season starts a week later and goes two weeks after the rest of texas. But your right, it should be adjusted somewhat as the rut still has its peak the first of novemeber in central texas, about mid november in south texas, yet you can find a doe in heat through january most places /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif. You would think the seasons would vary more than what they have right now
 
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I hunted the crap out of Northern Nevada and Im happy to report that the population of coyotes is as healthy as I have ever seen



Bamit, what is the timeframe of that observation? If you're talking about the last 10 years, then you are absolutely right. The coyote population is still about the same. It sucks!

But, were you hunting coyotes in northern NV in the 60's and 70's? I doubt it. The coyote population in NV in 1962 was about 90% greater than it is today in 2006. That's the decline the others are talking about.
 
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Since the rut starts so much later and runs longer the further south you go, you would think the TX wildlife department would have adjusted the hunting season to accommodate this variance?



If you will notice on the graph, the PEAK of the rut happens the first week of season. That is why the season strats when it does, because that is when the hunters want to hunt.

About 50% or more of the deer harvest happens the first week of the general gun season. This is by far when the most hunters are in the woods and after Thanksgiving deer hunting has all but petered out.

If you think you wouldn't have a complete revolt by starting the season AFTER the PEAK of the rut, you better think again.

As I said before, the MAJORITY of the fawns are born in May-June, and you have to manage a species based on the majority and not the minority.

For many years, the South Texas season did not open until 2 or 3 weeks after the rest of the state. And even now, it lasts about 3 weeks longer than the general season in the rest of the state.
 
Yeah, I figured it was about the bucks. But the original comment referred to does. So would it not make sense to restrict taking does until 3-4 weeks later? Sorry to seem to pester, but I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind the TX regulations and you seem the ideal person to ask. Thanks.
 
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