Brass for accuracy

Originally Posted By: joekingOriginally Posted By: pyscodogjoeking-I believe you've been called out!! What say Ye??

really! Guys just lookin for an argument, notice he never really offered up anything usfull, just oh that wont work. I blocked him when i noticed it, no time for asses like that. I never saw where he called me out, but poppin of from behind a keyboard is pretty chicken IMO. If he had pair he'd have contacted me directly.

I really think it is because Joe King has a terminal case of "Yellow Sneakers"... he got caught in a lie, and now claims that he didn't see the call out to make his case.

Well, I got a pair, and I will PM him a copy of this too make sure he reads it.

The original poster, Psychodog, has a problem with cases that are too long and hard to chamber. The cases he has from a Encore are 0.005 to 0.016 too long at the shoulder. The gun and "those cases" have negative headspace - i.e., the head to shoulder length of the case is longer than the head to shoulder length of the rifle's chamber.

Joe King says...

Originally Posted By: joeking

"or you can give these a whirl"
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod39926.aspx "



The link is to Redding's "Comp shell holders".

I made a few replies to Psychopuppy, and then I answered Joe King's post with...

Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: joeking

or you can give these a whirl

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod39926.aspx

Those will make the problem worse.



To which, Joe King replied...

Originally Posted By: joekingOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: joeking

or you can give these a whirl

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod39926.aspx

Those will make the problem worse.



How do you figure that? They certainly won't cause the case to be sized less.



At this point, I know that Joe King hasn't got the slightest idea about what he is talking about. Unlike Joe King, I actually own four sets of these shell holders (222 head, '06 head, .220 Swift head, and PPC head)

He is doing what a lot of guys on the web do - he read something in a catalogue, he "thinks" he knows how it works, and then he goes around telling other people how to solve their problem with this thing he saw in a catalogue...

...he lied!!

So I replied...

Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: joekingOriginally Posted By: CatShooter

Those will make the problem worse.




How do you figure that? They certainly won't cause the case to be sized less.

You should NEVER recommend loading tools that you haven't used.

You should NEVER recommend loading tools that you know nothing about.

These shell holders WILL cause the cases to be sized less.

These shell holders WILL cause the case head to shoulder length to get longer.



Then I replied to EJ...

Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: EJ Reichenbach

Wish I had these last week I had a hornady die that was to long and it wasnt even makin contact with the shoulder, I had to grind a shellholder down to make it work, but then the shellholder was way to thin, so I sh!t canned the whole thing and bought a new set of rcbs dies

They would not have helped. They effectively make the sizing longer, not shorter.

(Never grind shell holders)



Then Joe King posts...

Originally Posted By: joekingagain how do you know this? do you have them on your bench? I do, i have 2 rifles with custom chambers, without those tools i would have a very hard time closing my bolt on either rifle. I also have die sets that cost me over 250 each. So please explain to me how it is you know what is on my reloading bench and what i use, while your at it would you mind telling me what load i used in my 7mag this year.

I'm not sure what the "again" means, since it was a first request, but none the less - he asks how I know this? Well, Duh, I own four sets of them (a total of 20 shell holders).

He asks if I have them on my bench? (Duh, yes!)

Then he claims that he has them. And he claims he has die sets that cost over $250 (big deal - price out a set of five 50-BMG match dies sometime if you want sticker shock).

At this point, Joe King has proved he is a liar, and knows nothing about this stuff.

So I called him out!

I reply...

Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: joekingagain how do you know this? do you have them on your bench? I do, i have 2 rifles with custom chambers, without those tools i would have a very hard time closing my bolt on either rifle. I also have die sets that cost me over 250 each. So please explain to me how it is you know what is on my reloading bench and what i use, while your at it would you mind telling me what load i used in my 7mag this year.


You have a case that is a few thou longer than your "custom" chamber, and it is hard to close the bolt using a standard shell holder - but these comp shell holders make it possible to easily close the bolt??

How do these shell holders make it possible to easily close the bolt?

You're a liar. It is that simple!

Go down to your loading bench, and write down the markings on the comp shell holders - then come back and post them here, and explain what they mean, and how they make it possible to chamber cases that would otherwise be hard to chamber.

Or, put it another way, you have a case that when sized with a standard shell holder, has a measurement to the datum line of 2.000"... What would the measurements be with each of the five comp shell holders?? How do these shell holders make your cases shorter?

I triple dare you.

You have been called.



Now, if I were Joe King, and I was telling the truth, I would have LOVED this challenge... cuz it would take 5 minuted to make my protagonist (CatShooter) look like a flippin' idiot...

... but all we get is silence from this shell holder expert.

Then, after a long silence, he posts...

Originally Posted By: joekingOriginally Posted By: pyscodogjoeking-I believe you've been called out!! What say Ye??

really! Guys just lookin for an argument, notice he never really offered up anything usfull, just oh that wont work. I blocked him when i noticed it, no time for asses like that. I never saw where he called me out, but poppin of from behind a keyboard is pretty chicken IMO. If he had pair he'd have contacted me directly.

Yeah, right!

So, here is why Joe King is hiding in the celler.

The Redding Comp shell holders come in sets of 5 and they are ALL longer than the standard.

The excepted standard depth for shell holders is 0.125", +/- 0.0005 (a half of a thou)... that is why you can use a RCBS shell holder with a set of Redding, Hornady, CH4D, and anyone elses dies - cuz they ALL agree to make the shell holders the same size.

If you make shell holders LESS than 0.125", then the case will size shorter, and you will increase headspace - now, sometimes you want to make the case shorter - like with Psychopuppy's 7mm (or my new 22-250) when even after FL sizing, the case is still longer than the chamber...but NO DIE MAKER MAKES A SHELL HOLDER THAT IS SHORTER THAN 0.125".

Now... the Comp shell holders are deeper than standard - they are marked +.002", +.004", +.006", +.008", and +.010"... and so each shell holder makes the case longer than normal - and if you have cases that are too long to start with, when sizing with a 0.125" shell holder, the Comp shell holders will make it worse, which is exactly what I said.

The problem with widdle Joe King is that he read the ad on Sinclairintl, but did not understand it. It reads...

"Redding’s five piece shellholder set is designed so you can adjust your headspace by selecting the appropriate thickness Redding shellholder. The five shellholders are +.002", +.004", +.006", +.008", and +.010" thicker than normal shellholders (.125" from the bottom of the case head cut to the top of the shellholder). Each shellholder is clearly marked and has a black oxide finish to distinguish them from normal shell holders."

But since he doesn't own these shell holders, he didn't understand that when Redding said you can adjust the headspace, you can only make the cases longer than normal, not shorter.

So Joe King went and hid in the cellar like a bottom feeding, scum sucking piece of lying trash (ask me how I feel about liars sometime).

If Joe King did have a set of these shell holders, and he was right, it would have taken 5 minutes to make me look like an idiot.

I will PM him a copy of this.

It is a shame what is happening to this site - there used ot be a lot of good threads that passed good information and experiences back and forth - but it has degenerated into one food fight after another.

... I was going to send him a copy of this, but he has blocked me, so that is that.

A brave little boy.

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It is a shame what is happening to this site - there used ot be a lot of good threads that passed good information and experiences back and forth - but it has degenerated into one food fight after another.




What do you expect when you belittle people trying to learn. A different approach might yield different results IMHO
 
Originally Posted By: e-manIt is a shame what is happening to this site - there used ot be a lot of good threads that passed good information and experiences back and forth - but it has degenerated into one food fight after another.


What do you expect when you belittle people trying to learn. A different approach might yield different results IMHO

I don't belittle people trying to learn, but I have real issues with people that shovel BS to those same people that are trying to learn.

If you read the thread (carefully) you will see that I was polite at first, and it was Joe King that kept raising the bar and shoveling the BS, and got an attitude because he was being corrected.

If a poster (like Psychopup) ask a question and someone like Joe King give's him BS advice, and I politely say, "no it doesn't work like that", and Joe King get's his attitude going and raises the level, and I am still polite and say it doesn't work that way, and he gets more of an attitude and cross the line... do you want me to go hide in the cellar cuz he was mean to me.

Nevea happening. I am not the first to raise the level, but I will not let someone like JK give bad advice to someone like Psychopup, and let it go.

If Psychopup went out and bought a set of those shell holders on Joe's advice, and they don't work, who is going to give him the $50 he spent for that set of shell holders that he cannot use - YOU???

I don't think so.

There are a lot of guys that have no problem making up stuff to post, so they sound "Cool"... but they don't care about the consequences of their bad or wrong advice.

How would you like to be on the receiving end of some BS when you needed help... and you went out and bought tools or other stuff to "fix your problem", and the money and time (and maybe more) was wasted. Who gives you your money back, - who gives you your time back - not the BS artist that gave you that advice.

I try to correct bad information politely, but some petty BS artists get offended at getting caught, and raise the level - I won't walk away from that. (need I remind you of "Vacuum" and how you reacted to being told there was no such problem?)

Tell you what - when you are willing to repay posters for the money they waste with bad advice, I will stop correcting idiots like Joe King.

Am I polite about it, yes, at first... but if that doesn't work, and they want to raise the level to ugly with an attitude, then I will give better than they can.

Where I grew up, if you lied and got caught, no one was kind and politically correct - you got your feelings hurt real bad (and maybe your nose), cuz, surprise surprise, surprise, people are not supposed to lie... Duh!

.
 
Originally Posted By: e-man
there used ot be a lot of good threads that passed good information and experiences back and forth -


e-man,
I got some good information from THIS thread, especially about the Redding competition shell holders.




Originally Posted By: e-man
What do you expect when you belittle people trying to learn.

I don't ever remember CatShooter belittling anybody that was trying to learn. I HAVE seen him absolutely scalding a bunch of folks who were throwing out "questionable" information to folks who WERE trying to learn.
Some things are just opinions, and we are all entitled to our own. But some things are facts, and facts aren't subject to interpretation.
If we are going to get on here and throw out facts to folks who are honestly asking for information, I think we need to be able to back up our facts with experience. If we can't do that, we better be ready to get our a$$es scalded by folks who can.

Just my opinion!!
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It didn't need to be spelled out to me. I got what happened long ago.

I have learned something on this one though. If you need to leave your cases a bit longer than normal, buy the redding comp shell holders. If you need them shorter grind your shell holder down.
smile.gif
I learned junk, I get smarter every day.
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Pyscodog,

Man was this a fun read / well everybody has one.

I have a Sendero I in 7mm Remington also. It has a tight chamber and a tight bore. How do I know it has a tight bore? It will show pressure signs before my other three 7mm do with the same hand loads. I wanted one handload that I could use in all of my rifles. Well, not in that one.
The Sendero is my go to mountain rifle but now I only shoot factory ammo in it. It likes Hornady Superformance ammo 154gr. It feed and shoots great and I like that. $40 a box and I have brass to reload for my other rifles.

The END!
 
Since you brought it up as far as mine and your correspondence I never argued like others that I have seen. I was just trying to learn and understand my incorrect logic. Please tell me the problem with that. It kinda sucks you misunderstood my tone because I certainly did not intend it to sound argumentative. Besides who made you the PM mommy? I dont know you from anyone else here so from my perspective your advice is not any better than anyone else. You telling me I made things up to prove my point was far fetched at best. This is exactly what I meant about your approach. You should not be surprised when you get the feedback that you get that all.
 
Originally Posted By: e-manSince you brought it up as far as mine and your correspondence I never argued like others that I have seen. I was just trying to learn and understand my incorrect logic. Please tell me the problem with that. It kinda sucks you misunderstood my tone because I certainly did not intend it to sound argumentative. Besides who made you the PM mommy? I dont know you from anyone else here so from my perspective your advice is not any better than anyone else. You telling me I made things up to prove my point was far fetched at best. This is exactly what I meant about your approach. You should not be surprised when you get the feedback that you get that all.

Well your arguing now.... Welcome to the club!
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Originally Posted By: e-manSince you brought it up as far as mine and your correspondence I never argued like others that I have seen. I was just trying to learn and understand my incorrect logic. Please tell me the problem with that. It kinda sucks you misunderstood my tone because I certainly did not intend it to sound argumentative. Besides who made you the PM mommy? I dont know you from anyone else here so from my perspective your advice is not any better than anyone else. You telling me I made things up to prove my point was far fetched at best. This is exactly what I meant about your approach. You should not be surprised when you get the feedback that you get that all.

Good evening e-man. Tell us about the vacuum thing and the clogged vent holes again...

I don't think we got it the first time

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Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: EJ ReichenbachOriginally Posted By: joekingOriginally Posted By: pyscodogI bought a Sendero in 7 Mag. I have dug through all my stuff and came up with some brass for the rifle. I have Win, R-P, and a very few FC. All has been fire through an Encore with what seems to be a large chamber because full length sizing still leaves me with a tuff chambering round. Case OAL is varies on the Winny brass from .005 to .016 over reccommend lenght. The rifle was bought for mainly long range shooting with very little hunting in mind. Mainly target shooting.
Should I:
1) Scrape it all and buy new quality brass
2)polish,trim,anneal,and resize
I know none of it has very few firings cause I didn't keep the Encore very long. But I'm also not sure where it all came from either. If I use the old stuff, which is better, Winchester of Remington. I usually lean towards the Winchester in my other rifles. Thanks

or you can give these a whirl
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod39926.aspx

Wish I had these last week I had a hornady die that was to long and it wasnt even makin contact with the shoulder, I had to grind a shellholder down to make it work, but then the shellholder was way to thin, so I sh!t canned the whole thing and bought a new set of rcbs dies

They would not have helped. They effectively make the sizing longer, not shorter.

(Never grind shell holders)


.

How about if I grind the bottom of the Die
 
Best choice being, send several once fired cases to you die maker of choice and have them make you a FL die to suit your gun. No chance of adding issues like things not being perfectly true. Unless you have the proper equipment to precisely remove mateial, at best you will be several (ie .010+/- or more) off of being perpendicular to the case centerline. Not something that bodes well for accuracy, unless of course you have one of those Hornady case straighteners.....
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Seriously, just get the dies made, your gun and case life will both reward you in the end.
 
Originally Posted By: e-manDont have the energy. You can cut and paste if you want.

One of those bonafide AR guys wouldn't understand reloading for a bolt guns. Does seem like we have a bunch of know it alls show up around here lately. One thing I can't understand, a man has over 5000 posts on this sight and its about reloading AND i would say about 99.99% of the time its correct, I would probably listen. But all of the sudden these geniuses show and question Catshooter and get their PANTIES in a wad for being corrected, its your tough luck. Wanna be a smart mouth, go to another forum and QUIT wastin somebody elses time. In the mean time, fix your vacuum problem because it looks like your still suckin.
 
Originally Posted By: travjcBest choice being, send several once fired cases to you die maker of choice and have them make you a FL die to suit your gun. No chance of adding issues like things not being perfectly true. Unless you have the proper equipment to precisely remove mateial, at best you will be several (ie .010+/- or more) off of being perpendicular to the case centerline. Not something that bodes well for accuracy, unless of course you have one of those Hornady case straighteners.....
lol.gif

Seriously, just get the dies made, your gun and case life will both reward you in the end.


I was being sarcastic, I think the gun has a fairly tight chamber, the hornady die screwed all the way down and in a quarter turn wouldnt even bump the shoulder back. Had to go by some RCBS dies and then it was all good, and yes all brass was fired in same gun
 
Originally Posted By: Ridgeline17Originally Posted By: e-manDont have the energy. You can cut and paste if you want.

One of those bonafide AR guys wouldn't understand reloading for a bolt guns. Does seem like we have a bunch of know it alls show up around here lately. One thing I can't understand, a man has over 5000 posts on this sight and its about reloading AND i would say about 99.99% of the time its correct, I would probably listen. But all of the sudden these geniuses show and question Catshooter and get their PANTIES in a wad for being corrected, its your tough luck. Wanna be a smart mouth, go to another forum and QUIT wastin somebody elses time. In the mean time, fix your vacuum problem because it looks like your still suckin.

I have more posts than you
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does that mean I know more about guns?
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Im confused
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How did we get on the subject of vacums? I thought this was a predator forum? Do they use ammo? What kind of Scope do ya'll use on your vacum?
 
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I suppose the only way this would be fesable for Mr JOE KING would be if for some reason, his original shell holder was mis-machined and was larger than this .125" measurement. This simply could be proven by him with some simple measurements. With all the mass produced stuff out there, it's quite possible for something to slip through QC. As most of us in the reloading world already know, this phenomenon of non-existant QC is becoming rather comon, maybe a new normal. I concur with CatShooter on this, some measurements, and reference to what he is using could very well prove his case.
 
Originally Posted By: travjcI suppose the only way this would be fesable for Mr JOE KING would be if for some reason, his original shell holder was mis-machined and was larger than this .125" measurement. This simply could be proven by him with some simple measurements. With all the mass produced stuff out there, it's quite possible for something to slip through QC. As most of us in the reloading world already know, this phenomenon of non-existant QC is becoming rather comon, maybe a new normal. I concur with CatShooter on this, some measurements, and reference to what he is using could very well prove his case.

JOEKING was refering to his shellholders to be smaller than the standard .125 shellholder, cuz he said that some of his rifles would not chamber unless he used this shellholder, well me and everyone else would assume he has a tight chamber, so why would he need a thicker shellholder to resize the brass for his tight chambered guns, this was Catshooters point, they dont make them any thinner than .125
 
Originally Posted By: Ridgeline17And how are you confused EJ and you'll have to ask e-man about the optics for his Hoover

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Originally Posted By: EJ ReichenbachOriginally Posted By: travjcI suppose the only way this would be fesable for Mr JOE KING would be if for some reason, his original shell holder was mis-machined and was larger than this .125" measurement. This simply could be proven by him with some simple measurements. With all the mass produced stuff out there, it's quite possible for something to slip through QC. As most of us in the reloading world already know, this phenomenon of non-existant QC is becoming rather comon, maybe a new normal. I concur with CatShooter on this, some measurements, and reference to what he is using could very well prove his case.

JOEKING was refering to his shellholders to be smaller than the standard .125 shellholder, cuz he said that some of his rifles would not chamber unless he used this shellholder, well me and everyone else would assume he has a tight chamber, so why would he need a thicker shellholder to resize the brass for his tight chambered guns, this was Catshooters point, they dont make them any thinner than .125

Thanks, but ya I got that, just trying to help prove the point that Cat didnt' start out being rude. If he had used some factual evidence of his results he could have had a point, but instead took offense and began calling CatShooter out.
 
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