Abortion----Politics

Heck, lets call a spade a spade. Removing a child from the womb before it is born, ending it's chance for survival, that's killing it. Terminating pregnancy deliberately should be premeditated murder. If something does not survive, it dies. Death brought on by another's action is called killing or murder. Governments only role here should be to define what constitutes murder, and stop it's practice by enforcing criminal statutes as they pertain to the taking of innocent life.

On the other hand, we have the so called 'Pro Choice' crowd, that if they can succeed in defining an unborn baby as a non viable mass of tissue, then they can claim they are not committing murder. Now we all understand that an embryo if allowed to survive, will be a baby in about 9 months. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The above being said, I do believe that services could and should be available for those in cases where the mother's life is in danger (tubal pregnancies and such). Maybe this makes me a hypocrite, but I think most of America hold similar views.

I do think it is absolutely abhorrent and it is murder to use abortion as a form of birth control. Birth control should take place before conception. Pro-choice before conception.

Sex ain't there just to make us feel good. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif It's that "other" purpose that is always forgotten about, and an innocent, unborn child gets to pay the cost for that decision. If you don't wanna have kids, remove yourself from the gene pool and get sterilized. Pro Choice should come before sex, not after. Otherwise, be prepared to take the consequences. If you don't want to parent the child, there are thousands of couples who would be more than grateful to have a baby to raise. I was one of them. I have two wonderful boys because two special ladies chose the other "A" word, Adoption!

Lastly, freedom to choose is paramount, but that still does not remove the consequences of a particular choice. Abortion proponents would have you believe it is no different than removing a wart, but a wart doesn't have the potential to become sentient human being. Abortion is killing a future human being, plain and simple.

The only role government needs to play here is the same role they play for any other human being and that is to protect the sanctity of life, and place appropriate punishment on those who would take that life.

This subject remains an issue of morality, the answer is also a reflection on the kind of society we have become. So I ask, "What kind of society are we, when we kill unborn children for convenience?"
 
I can make a very simple, clear case why murder is illegal without resorting to the 10 commandments or any other source of morals.

You have the right to your life. The definition of murder is the illegal taking of human life. Why is it illegal? Because you have the right to your life, no one has the right to take it from you, with certain exception such as in an act of self defense.

The morality of it is irrelevant from a legal POV. Your right to your life hold the trump card.

Stealing is illegal for the same reason.

I keep telling you guys but you friggin don't want to listen. We have 300 million people in this country and they are NOT all Christians, they do NOT all believe the 10 commandments & those that aren't & don't simple do not give a curled lip for the fact that you do, yet we all have to live under the same laws.

You can argue morality for its own sake, but when it comes to legislation you need to be sticking to things that can clearly & simply be shown to apply to everyone, regardless of their religion or lack thereof.
 
"Why would that verse even be relevant to you if in your opinion "The Ten Commandments are not LAW!"?" It's not relevant to me. You guys are using them to define your world so I brought it up in reference to that. I don't believe in them. Not that I don't live by some of them. I do so because of what I feel is right or wrong. Not because I think they are God's commandments.

"The Constitution of these Great United States Of America reads "Freedom of Religion" not "Freedom FROM Religion""
Pure symantics. I have now formed the church of yipnhowl. All members will be required to bestow upon me, the almighty, 1 virgin female and 10% of their ammo.

"At the same time you and the rest of the pro-death crowd love to point to the result of a rape, where the victim is impregnated, which is also rare as being a justifiable exception for an abortion" You may be right. Never thought of it that way. Doesn't really matter to me whether it's rape or not. Sorry. Let the woman decide what is right or wrong for herself and her God. I do agree it is ridiculous to use as a means of birth control. People need to be more responsible about proper use of birth control.

"It may be your opinion that the sun sets in the east but doesn't change any FACTS. The FACT here is that millions of unborn children are being senslessly butchered and tossed out like yesterday's table scraps in this country." I don't see it that way. I don't see it as murder. I don't think it's a person until it is born or could legitimatel survive without aid.

"We will continue to do so at our own peril." I thought you hade made your peace with God why is it at your peril? You are going to a better place if it gets real bad.

"oh, I forgot, you probably can't because you don't own a Bible! " Well exccuuuuuuse me. So what if I don't own a bible? You probably don't own half the books I do. Do I belittle you?


"Where would we be today if she had chosen today's 'legal' means of ridding her 'unwanted burden'? " I don't know. Maybe we would be in a much better place than we are now. Maybe I would be ruler of all the world and maybe i would have never been born. To claim that the world is a better place because of what happened is mere speculation. I could argue it would have been better if it hadn't happened. Especially if I were a Jew or Muslim.

For a bunch of Christians you sure judge alot and cast alot of hatred about. You have all confirmed why I am not a big fan of religion in general. Too much hatred and intolerance of your fellow man. At the church of yipnhowl we are much more tolerant and don't kill in the name of our God.
 
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First thing Rimmy, you posted on the thread roughly five hours after I asked the question. When I added it to my original post is irrelevant. The question was avoided the first time so I asked it again some 16 hours later.



Dawg, I missed the question because I had already read the post. Your accusation that I have avoided the question is as unfounded as most of your other remarks

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You have made several posts defending the practice of abortion



No, I have made several posts defending the right to choose.

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Actually you have yet to give a direct answer to the question. It's a simple
question that demands a yes or no answer.



you keep refusing to accept the answer that I gave.

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using typical gutless liberal tactics, you try to veer the discussion off into religion, birth control, abstinence, and sex ed. As usual, the tactic of changing the subject when the facts aren't on your side was employed.



Your whole worldview seems to be yes/no, us/them, either/or it’s no wonder that the relationship between these four issues has gone over your head. Someday when you learn that most questions are more complex than that you may get a better grasp on life as it really is.

You know Dawg in your posts you have repeatedly tried to tell me what party I belong to. What side of the political spectrum I am on. You have tried to dictate who is a real Christian. You are consistently telling people who they shouldn’t vote for. You have demanded that I answer your questions and tried to require that the answer be yes or no. I’m beginning to think that you’re a control freak. So I’m purposely ignoring your last question just to aggravate you. It’s for your own good.
 
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Mothers choice.



So, were Ron Goldman and Nichole Brown Simpson OJ's choice??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
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You know Dawg in your posts you have repeatedly tried to tell me what party I belong to. What side of the political spectrum I am on. You have tried to dictate who is a real Christian. You are consistently telling people who they shouldn’t vote for. You have demanded that I answer your questions and tried to require that the answer be yes or no. I’m beginning to think that you’re a control freak. So I’m purposely ignoring your last question just to aggravate you. It’s for your own good.



Glad i'm not the only one who has noticed....
 
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You know Dawg in your posts you have repeatedly tried to tell me what party I belong to. What side of the political spectrum I am on. You have tried to dictate who is a real Christian. You are consistently telling people who they shouldn’t vote for. You have demanded that I answer your questions and tried to require that the answer be yes or no. I’m beginning to think that you’re a control freak. So I’m purposely ignoring your last question just to aggravate you. It’s for your own good.



Glad i'm not the only one who has noticed....





Dawg,

Will you please quit picking these two. You are just a neocon bully!
 
"The Constitution of these Great United States Of America reads "Freedom of Religion" not "Freedom FROM Religion""
Pure symantics. I have now formed the church of yipnhowl. All members will be required to bestow upon me, the almighty, 1 virgin female and 10% of their ammo.

No, actually it is not Pure symantics, nor is it pure SEMANTICS It is what it is "Freedom of Religion."
 
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Mothers choice.



So, were Ron Goldman and Nichole Brown Simpson OJ's choice??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif



Ok, You do have a point there. But what if a woman was raped and too traumatized to even think about the morning after pill. If she has that baby than she will be reminded of that incedent her whole life, and what would the child think of its self when he/she is a product of rape?

What if the mother was not financially able to provide a good life for the child and the child has to live its adolescent life in foster care?

I feel it should be the mothers choice in that circumstance. Is abortion right? I dont know the answer that, none of us can really say if it is right or not. The only person that really knows is God.

Sure we can argue until our faces turn blue in frustration but the question "Is abortion right?" can never really be answered. There is never a time when everyone is going to agree on this topic. It will be a hotly debated topic for as long as we live.
 
"No, actually it is no Pure symantics, nor is it pure SEMANTICS It is what it is "Freedom of Religion." "

Listen, if you are going to rank on my spelling/typing then you should NOT have any inaccuracies of your own. You want to play technicalities fine. Like I said welcome to the church of yipnhowl. Do you really want to force people to choose a religion? Relgions are BS hypocrital crap designed to keep people from thinking for themselves. Also, what if they don't choose your religion?

"It's a simple question that demands a yes or no answer." Actually it's not a simple question and you demand a yes or no answer it doesn't. Despite what you think I don't care if you want an answer and neither does Rimmy or probably a fair amount of the population. Dawg, do you have a need to be right? It sure seems that way. Pretty tough life always looking outside yourself for validation.
 
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Mothers choice.



So, were Ron Goldman and Nichole Brown Simpson OJ's choice??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Actually no they weren't his choice. He didn't do it! He was found not guilty. Do you have some info the rest of us don't?.........Ok. I was just fooling. I think he did it. And yes, they were his choice. Or perhaps God sent him to do it and it's part of his master plan. But seriously, here's my problem with that. He deserves to fry for it, but if he confesses his sin and accepts Jesus as his savior he gets to go to heaven with the saints. BS.
 
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Mothers choice.



So, were Ron Goldman and Nichole Brown Simpson OJ's choice??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Actually no they weren't his choice. He didn't do it! He was found not guilty. Do you have some info the rest of us don't?.........Ok. I was just fooling. I think he did it. And yes, they were his choice. Or perhaps God sent him to do it and it's part of his master plan. But seriously, here's my problem with that. He deserves to fry for it, but if he confesses his sin and accepts Jesus as his savior he gets to go to heaven with the saints. BS.



Yip,

You'll have to take that up with a Higher Power than me. However, I do believe that you will get your chance to discuss that anything else when we all stand in Judgement. Here's a hint though, I probably wouldn't question the judgement of the Creator of the universe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I might just cover my mouth and listen if I were you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
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Mothers choice.



So, were Ron Goldman and Nichole Brown Simpson OJ's choice??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Actually no they weren't his choice. He didn't do it! He was found not guilty. Do you have some info the rest of us don't?.........Ok. I was just fooling. I think he did it. And yes, they were his choice. Or perhaps God sent him to do it and it's part of his master plan. But seriously, here's my problem with that. He deserves to fry for it, but if he confesses his sin and accepts Jesus as his savior he gets to go to heaven with the saints. BS.



Yip,

You'll have to take that up with a Higher Power than me. However, I do believe that you will get your chance to discuss that anything else when we all stand in Judgement. Here's a hint though, I probably wouldn't question the judgement of the Creator of the universe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I might just cover my mouth and listen if I were you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

That was not an attack on you or anyone else. Just a statement. I don't think you took it that way...just clarifying in case. I suspect if you're right I'll be having a few discussions with HIM. I would hope He is not offended by questioning for that is how we learn. If he is well then to Hell with Him. I'll be catching "what for" for that as well. You make him sound like a dictator.
 
Yip,

Not a dictator, just a Sovereign God who made all of the rules. We don't get to make our terms with him. He sets the rules of the game. When you get to know him, you'll realize that that is how you want it. I know he knows better than me what is good for me. He loves everyone of us more than we can fathom. I know I make mistakes, he has never made one. I'm content to let him steer the ship.

BTW, I didn't think you attacked me.
 
Putting all religious reasons aside, abortion is still wrong headed thinking and not in the best interests of this country.
When the Supreme Court was tasked with deciding on the outcome of Roe vs. Wade, it did something that was outside the scope of it’s responsibility, it legislated from the bench. The Supreme Court has a narrow job description, to interpret and define what the Constitution means, and to decide and define which entity has the responsibility to enact and enforce the points therein. The one thing it shouldn't ever do is to make new law, that is a right that is reserved for legislators at either the state or federal levels, and because of the moral underpinnings of what abortion is and does, and because of the differences of opinion in differing areas of the country, it should be decided by the states. This is the basic premise of what a Democratic Republic is meant to be, that because of differences of either opinion or demographics the individual states can choose to enact laws best suited to the citizens residing therein.
When you make the decision to allow abortion, in the name of population control, or a woman's right to choose, or for any reason short of the life of the mother and then either invite immigration through either legal means or leave your borders so open that anyone from any country can for the most part just walk in and set up house keeping, for the most part in the interest of filling jobs, you've kind of lost the legitimate argument that population control was any issue at all. When you encourage birth control of your native population, by whatever means, only to allow the uncontrolled immigration of foreign peoples, which no other country on the face of the earth does, it shouldn't be any surprise that on some given day one wakes up to find their country isn't their country any longer.
 
Whiskers,

Rusty Holt's wife here...my hubby sent me this thread so I could read it. Your question caught my attention, "...what would the child think of its self when he/she is a product of rape?" Obviously you didn't read the link my husband posted earlier. I AM a "product" of rape and as far as what I think of myself? Well, I KNOW that I am a child of God, no matter what my genetics may be. I deserve the right to life just like every one else. My DNA does not determine the person I have become or the value of my life. I do not hide the fact that I was conceived in rape, instead I see it as a "gift". I am a public speaker and use my story to give people a "face" to the argument of abortion being okay in the case of rape. I thank God for giving me life, my birthmom for giving me a chance, and my adoptive family for giving me a home. So...there's an answer to your question from someone who knows first hand and lives with the reality of being a "product" of rape everyday.
 
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First thing Rimmy, you posted on the thread roughly five hours after I asked the question. When I added it to my original post is irrelevant. The question was avoided the first time so I asked it again some 16 hours later.



Dawg, I missed the question because I had already read the post. Your accusation that I have avoided the question is as unfounded as most of your other remarks







If you read my original post in that 45 minutes then my bad. You still haven't answered the question.





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You have made several posts defending the practice of abortion



No, I have made several posts defending the right to choose.






"Right to choose" means approval of the act in no uncertain terms. It really is that simple.



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Actually you have yet to give a direct answer to
the question. It's a simple
question that demands a yes or no answer.


you keep refusing to accept the answer that I gave.




Because I asked for a yes or no answer, not more obfuscation.




Quote:
using typical gutless liberal tactics, you try to veer the discussion off into religion, birth control, abstinence, and sex ed. As usual, the tactic of changing the subject when the facts aren't on your side was employed.





Your whole worldview seems to be yes/no, us/them, either/or it’s no wonder that the relationship between these four issues has gone over your head. Someday when you learn that most questions are more complex than that you may get a better grasp on life as it really is.





Many subjects are that way, this is one of them. Abortion is either RIGHT OR WRONG.




You know Dawg in your posts you have repeatedly tried to tell me what party I belong to. What side of the political spectrum I am on. You have tried to dictate who is a real Christian. You are consistently telling people who they shouldn’t vote for. You have demanded that I answer your questions and tried to require that the answer be yes or no. I’m beginning to think that you’re a control freak. So I’m purposely ignoring your last question just to aggravate you. It’s for your own good.




I didn't assign a Party to you. You've made it clear to all here that you are a proud Independant. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to scroll through your posts and realize you are a liberal Independant. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif I don't define what a Christian is, the Bible does. If I point that out, get over it. If you don't like how God defines a Christian, take it up with HIM. You'll lose. Regarding candidates, I have my opinions and voice them just like everyone else here. If you don't like those opinions, again, get over it. I asked a simple yes or no question of you, and you refuse to answer it. Your choice. Your lack of a straight answer does appear to reveal to us your discomfort in admitting your support of the butchering of the unborn. As for my last question, your response is more of the same.



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