Abortion----Politics

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Whiskers,

Rusty Holt's wife here...my hubby sent me this thread so I could read it. Your question caught my attention, "...what would the child think of its self when he/she is a product of rape?" Obviously you didn't read the link my husband posted earlier. I AM a "product" of rape and as far as what I think of myself? Well, I KNOW that I am a child of God, no matter what my genetics may be. I deserve the right to life just like every one else. My DNA does not determine the person I have become or the value of my life. I do not hide the fact that I was conceived in rape, instead I see it as a "gift". I am a public speaker and use my story to give people a "face" to the argument of abortion being okay in the case of rape. I thank God for giving me life, my birthmom for giving me a chance, and my adoptive family for giving me a home. So...there's an answer to your question from someone who knows first hand and lives with the reality of being a "product" of rape everyday.




/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
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Whiskers,

Rusty Holt's wife here...my hubby sent me this thread so I could read it. Your question caught my attention, "...what would the child think of its self when he/she is a product of rape?" Obviously you didn't read the link my husband posted earlier. I AM a "product" of rape and as far as what I think of myself? Well, I KNOW that I am a child of God, no matter what my genetics may be. I deserve the right to life just like every one else. My DNA does not determine the person I have become or the value of my life. I do not hide the fact that I was conceived in rape, instead I see it as a "gift". I am a public speaker and use my story to give people a "face" to the argument of abortion being okay in the case of rape. I thank God for giving me life, my birthmom for giving me a chance, and my adoptive family for giving me a home. So...there's an answer to your question from someone who knows first hand and lives with the reality of being a "product" of rape everyday.




/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Thank you Mrs. Holt! Cyber hugs directed your way. (I hope your hubby nor my wife don't mind.......) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Well, I KNOW that I am a child of God, no matter what my genetics may be. I deserve the right to life just like every one else. My DNA does not determine the person I have become or the value of my life.



This quote was so good it needed to be repeated.

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Whiskers,

Rusty Holt's wife here...my hubby sent me this thread so I could read it. Your question caught my attention, "...what would the child think of its self when he/she is a product of rape?" Obviously you didn't read the link my husband posted earlier. I AM a "product" of rape and as far as what I think of myself? Well, I KNOW that I am a child of God, no matter what my genetics may be. I deserve the right to life just like every one else. My DNA does not determine the person I have become or the value of my life. I do not hide the fact that I was conceived in rape, instead I see it as a "gift". I am a public speaker and use my story to give people a "face" to the argument of abortion being okay in the case of rape. I thank God for giving me life, my birthmom for giving me a chance, and my adoptive family for giving me a home. So...there's an answer to your question from someone who knows first hand and lives with the reality of being a "product" of rape everyday.




Rusty,

I hope you thank God everyday without fail for the quality of this woman He gave to you. God Bless you both and thank you, Mrs. Holt for your witness. This may be the best attitude that I have heard in years. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Quote:
Whiskers,

Rusty Holt's wife here...my hubby sent me this thread so I could read it. Your question caught my attention, "...what would the child think of its self when he/she is a product of rape?" Obviously you didn't read the link my husband posted earlier. I AM a "product" of rape and as far as what I think of myself? Well, I KNOW that I am a child of God, no matter what my genetics may be. I deserve the right to life just like every one else. My DNA does not determine the person I have become or the value of my life. I do not hide the fact that I was conceived in rape, instead I see it as a "gift". I am a public speaker and use my story to give people a "face" to the argument of abortion being okay in the case of rape. I thank God for giving me life, my birthmom for giving me a chance, and my adoptive family for giving me a home. So...there's an answer to your question from someone who knows first hand and lives with the reality of being a "product" of rape everyday.



There's no doubt the world is a better place with you in it. Describing yourself as a "product" is hardly fitting. You are far too great to be described as a "product" of anything. You are a "hero" or perhaps "blessing" of. Thank you for your insight and keep up your mission.
 
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I can make a very simple, clear case why murder is illegal without resorting to the 10 commandments or any other source of morals.

You have the right to your life. The definition of murder is the illegal taking of human life. Why is it illegal? Because you have the right to your life, no one has the right to take it from you, with certain exception such as in an act of self defense.

The morality of it is irrelevant from a legal POV. Your right to your life hold the trump card.

Stealing is illegal for the same reason.

I keep telling you guys but you friggin don't want to listen. We have 300 million people in this country and they are NOT all Christians, they do NOT all believe the 10 commandments & those that aren't & don't simple do not give a curled lip for the fact that you do, yet we all have to live under the same laws.

You can argue morality for its own sake, but when it comes to legislation you need to be sticking to things that can clearly & simply be shown to apply to everyone, regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

Well said.
 
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You have made several posts defending the practice of abortion



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No, I have made several posts defending the right to choose.



"Right to choose" means approval of the act in no uncertain terms. It really is that simple.



No it's not that simple. Let me give you an example. I’m not a Catholic. I’ve never been a Catholic. I have no desire to become a Catholic. All thru history right up to the present there are many things that the Catholic Church has done that are immoral, illegal and disgusting. That being said, I fully support anyone’s right to choose to belong to the Catholic Church.
 
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You have made several posts defending the practice of abortion



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No, I have made several posts defending the right to choose.



"Right to choose" means approval of the act in no uncertain terms. It really is that simple.



No it's not that simple. Let me give you an example. I’m not a Catholic. I’ve never been a Catholic. I have no desire to become a Catholic. All thru history right up to the present there are many things that the Catholic Church has done that are immoral, illegal and disgusting. That being said, I fully support anyone’s right to choose to belong to the Catholic Church.




So, supporting the killing of babies is the moral equivalent of being a Catholic? That's thin. Real thin. It's not necessarily wrong to be a Catholic. If someone supports the wrong actions of those in the Catholic church, does that make them a bad Catholic or just wrong? I can't believe I responded to such an idiotic post. I'd expect such drivel from jwp, but you can do better.
 
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So, supporting the killing of babies is the moral equivalent of being a Catholic? That's thin. Real thin. It's not necessarily wrong to be a Catholic. If someone supports the wrong actions of those in the Catholic church, does that make them a bad Catholic or just wrong? I can't believe I responded to such an idiotic post. I'd expect such drivel from jwp, but you can do better.



You are going way out of the way to act like you don’t see the point. Supporting someone’s right to choose does not mean you approve of the choice that they make. I would give you another example but you would just try to use that as a distraction.
 
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I can only assume the point is "I'd never personally have an abortion, but everyone else has the right to." How big of you.


and you have a problem with this?
 
Yup. It is THE moral issue that defines our society. Don't want to view it on moral grounds? Fine. I'll take the words of the Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence over those of a few liberal judges legislating from the bench nearly 200 years later. Protecting it's citizens "LIFE,LIBERTY,AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" is one of government's responsibilities under the Constitution. Government's refusal to protect the most vulnerable of citizens is indicative of just how far downhill our country has gone. You championing this manufactured "right" is part of the problem.
 
"Yup. It is THE moral issue that defines our society" Gosh, I sure hope not.

"Protecting it's citizens "LIFE,LIBERTY,AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" is one of government's responsibilities under the Constitution." True, but what's the definition of a citizen. If you use this definition then they are not entitled to protection because they are not yet born. Definition of citizen (noun) a person who is a member of a country by birth or by law.


"I can only assume the point is "I'd never personally have an abortion, but everyone else has the right to." How big of you. " You always take a negative approach on things. God forbid you take or point out anything positive. That's the problem with some people. They are so focused on the negative. Perhaps "Rimmy, I am proud that at least on a personal level you would not choose abortion. Maybe someday you will think differently and take up the cause" Might do a little more for your cause in the long run.

Out of curiousity. Does his stance get him ousted from heaven?

on another note. With all your anger and resentment you might consider changing your name to reda$$eddawg. Try and loosen up a little.
 
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Yup. It is THE moral issue that defines our society. Don't want to view it on moral grounds? Fine. I'll take the words of the Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence over those of a few liberal judges legislating from the bench nearly 200 years later. Protecting it's citizens "LIFE,LIBERTY,AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" is one of government's responsibilities under the Constitution. Government's refusal to protect the most vulnerable of citizens is indicative of just how far downhill our country has gone. You championing this manufactured "right" is part of the problem.


edited because I misread your post
 
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"Protecting it's citizens "LIFE,LIBERTY,AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" is one of government's responsibilities under the Constitution." True, but what's the definition of a citizen. If you use this definition then they are not entitled to protection because they are not yet born. Definition of citizen (noun) a person who is a member of a country by birth or by law.





Is a baby taken from the womb by Cesarean at six months "born"? It only becomes a human when it's born? What is it before that? You can try to define it however you want. It's obvious that life begins at conception. When that life is snuffed out by an abortionist it is the murder of a human life, plain and simple. I'm not normally "negative", but the only positive thing about abortion is when they don't occur.
 
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on another note. With all your anger and resentment you might consider changing your name to reda$$eddawg. Try and loosen up a little.



Yeah that's cute. Seems you have some anger and resentment of your own. Perhaps when you have an intelligent arguement you won't have to resort to name calling. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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I'm not normally "negative", but the only positive thing about abortion is when they don't occur.


So where do you stand on birth control and sex education?
 
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on another note. With all your anger and resentment you might consider changing your name to reda$$eddawg. Try and loosen up a little.



Yeah that's cute. Seems you have some anger and resentment of your own. Perhaps when you have an intelligent arguement you won't have to resort to name calling. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif



No anger or resentment. Just poking a little fun aside from the argument. Keep in mind if you are going to accuse me of it you will have to condemn yourself for the same.

I am curious though. You did not answer my question. What say you? Or anyone else for that matter. Does Rimmy's stance get him ousted from heaven?
 
I dont like abortion, but one of the problems in our country is that there is no decent safety net for unwanted children.

Our foster system is a joke, my wife worked with Foster families for years before she quit it.

The whole adoption thing doesnt work as well as it should...most of the families that want to adopt are looking for a very specific type of child...hence the long waits.
And if a child does not get adopted by age 2, the odds drop drastically. And then they are stuck in the "system" hopefully until they are only 18. Because if they get lousy fosters, their odds of becoming a criminal go up dramatically.Then the taxpayer is footing their bill for even longer periods of time.

So thats on the infrastructure side, and whenever somebody tries to improve it, they get called a commie or a socialist or a liberal or whatever else in the way of bad names.....

So thats the reality on the legal side...

On the theological side, I grew up in a church-going fire-and-brimstone kind of place. We had a higher rate of teen pregnancy and teen alcoholism than anyplace else in the state.

If abstinance woulda worked, it would'a worked there, cause thats all you heard. But as I look back on it, abstinance will always be short term, then it will fail, drastically. Because Mother Nature doesn't want it to succeed. And when all the wonderfully "enlightened" elders see fit to compound the problem by making it stupidly hard to obtain birth control, well its like cutting the brakes on a runaway semi.



So if we want to outlaw abortion, thats fine.
I think we should.
But after we improve and reform some of our more provincial attitudes about sex, sexuality, and child care. Because what we have now isnt working, it isnt adequate.
 
Man, thats an hour of my life I can never get back. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves, arguing like a bunch of elementary school kids and calling each other names. I will not state my beliefs on this subject for or against because I will not be drawn into this mess any more than this post already will.

Last time I checked, this was a free country. The right for you to believe what you believe was bought and paid for by the blood of American Soldiers for nearly 250 years. The beauty of freedom is that we are free to believe in whatever we choose to believe in. The only reason this is not a knock down drag out fight at this point is because no one is face to face. This has gotten down right ridiculous. There are tons of sensative subjects and abortion is only one of them. So lets just start kicking each other a$$ because someone shares a different point of view /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

And then we take a sensitive subject and interject one of the most sensative subject on the planet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif. Religion. Then we start arguing about interpretation of Gods word and the difference between Catholicism, Born Again Christian, Latter Day Saints and on and on and on. Then the hypocracy starts to come out. God said "Thou Shall Not Kill" and abortion is murder, but.......its okay to kill if I am defending a right. The God given right to protect myself, my family or my country. Which is it? You cant have it both ways. I am well aware of the necessity of taking a human life. I fought in the Persian Gulf. I have been a Peace Officer for a very long time. I live with this stuff every day. So what did God mean? Thou Shall Not Kill, or its okay if its for all the right reasons? What was Gods message with Soddom and Gomarah? What was his message when he flooded the earth and spared only Noah, his family and two of every living creature. What about abortion terrorists? Blowing up abortion clinic or shooting people dead outside the clinic because they are baby murderers. If we are against abortion, are we willing to support that kind of activity to achieve our goal?

Taking another human life is never an easy thing. Its not something that anyone looks upon favoribly. Its easy to cast judgement on someone when we have not walked in their shoes. When we are not faced with circumstances that is light years beyond our understanding. Unfortunetely sometimes people are forced to make that choice. Sometimes in a split second. Remember "Thou Shall Not Kill". If taken litterally, thats pretty cut and dry. No gray area there. Or does God take into account the facts and set of circumstances known to that person who makes that choice when they stand before him? One thing in life is guaranteed. We all will get that chance.

I see this post going nowhere. I see alot of mud slinging and bad feelings. I see no good coming from this. If I had anything to do with this site I would lock this post down. These kind of debates have no place on a site that is dedicated to Sportsman, Hunters and Gun Owners. I think the creator of this site would have wanted us standing together. Not squabbling and bickering. This kind of debate only serves to divide people. End of rant.
 
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