Where's NASA

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I think that this in most way's..has been a healthy discussion..yes there's been a few distraction's..

perhap's in some way's it was time to "clear" the air..

it won't be accomplished 100% on this thread..

yet i believe this topic is certainly was worthy of discussion..

you simply "cannot" bury your head in the sand & pretend everything's ok..

sometime's it's not..

sometime's it also cannot be changed..

JMO..
 
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The whole thing makes me wonder though as to the why of all the confidentiality.



Look, I just don't know what it is about grown men that makes them think that they have some sort of right to stick their nose into other people's private business. The bottom line is that just because you want to know something does not mean that you have right to, or are going to. Is this a genetic thing? Too much estrogen, or what?

We mods have always -set up by Will himself- worked with the understanding that what is said in the moderators forum is utterly confidential. What is said there, stays there. Period. No matter what the subject, trouble with a member, discussing policy, whatever.

It's private. Always has been. Always will be. The day that changes is the day that most likely every single moderator leaves. It would take something truly extraordinary to change that. I've been here over 7 years and a lot has happened during that time. Nothing sufficient to cause us to decide to break that trust.

When it comes to disciplinary action regarding a member, that member is indeed told why action was taken. NASA was told why he was banned. The specifics, quite frankly, are no ones business but his & ours.

Some of you guys sound to me like a bunch of gossipy old women, sitting around with your granny panties in a wad, wringing your hands.



There is something about your tone there mister Farish that I dont quite care for. Seems like a few Moderators now that they are having their feet held to the fire are having a little bit of a problem with professionalism.

None of us want to know what you moderators discussed in your super secret council chambers. Some of us would like to know the set of facts that led you to your decision though. Its really not an unreasonable request.

Its very difficult for some of us to make an informed decision without the facts. Just becasue you have always done it this way does not make it right. You have a credibility problem going on here. The moderators keep telling us that NASA knows, Nasa knows, yet NASA is telling many of us that he doesnt know. Telling us personally. Funny thing is, many of us know NASA far better than just the guy that has posted on this board all these years. NASA is many things but I have never known him to be a liar. So who is lying Stu? You? Redfrog? How the heck would we as members know who is lying when no one will share the facts. You want members here to blindly trust your word over the word of a friend. You may very well be right, but prove to us that you are. Otherwise, many of us are going to have difficulty supporting you. So without some of those specifics that you are guarding so dearly, how do you propose we make a decision as to whether or not you have passed a righteous judgement on a fellow member and friend to many of us? NASA himself wants those reasons to be made public. If someone comes in here and posts irresponsibly and is publicly flogged for it then so be it. They should have excercised a little more self control. You or any of the other moderators are going to meet up with resistance when you come across with this self righteous indignation when faced with members questioning one of your decisions. Those of us that are members in good standing on this board do have a right to know whats going on whether you like it or not. Has nothing to do with estrogen or anything else. Its a matter of some of us wanting to know if we can even trust our leadership.
 
This idea of "if you don't like it, then go somewhere else" is bit odd to me. If you have something or someplace you really enjoy but you see it going astray,....the best option is to just abandon it or give up on it??? Looks to me like ALOT of people who truly enjoy PM are concerned about the direction of it and are only concerned that PM is not diminished. And then questions and concerns are met with sarcasm and the "well go somewhere else" mentality. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
Many of the mods are relunctant to post jus because they will be accused of "dog piling".

It is always the best aprroach to post without emotions or taking things personal. Sometimes that is hard to do. You may even see a few who don't try.

Even NASA was quilty of that, but I didn't see him get racked over the coals for this post.

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Geeze, it must be a new fad or something. Everywhere I go I see grown men throwing hissy fits and getting "upset" and "offended" like a bunch of teenaged girls. Good grief, can't anybody take a joke anymore? A poke in the ribs used to be a sign of admiration. Now it just turns "men" into cry-babys. Show some testosterone you bunch of candy-a$$ed wimps!

Disclaimer: This opinion is not directed at any specific individual(s), just the limp weenies in general. If this post "offends" you, then it found its mark.




 
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Many of the mods are relunctant to post jus because they will be accused of "dog piling".

It is always the best aprroach to post without emotions or taking things personal. Sometimes that is hard to do. You may even see a few who don't try.

Even NASA was quilty of that, but I didn't see him get racked over the coals for this post.

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Geeze, it must be a new fad or something. Everywhere I go I see grown men throwing hissy fits and getting "upset" and "offended" like a bunch of teenaged girls. Good grief, can't anybody take a joke anymore? A poke in the ribs used to be a sign of admiration. Now it just turns "men" into cry-babys. Show some testosterone you bunch of candy-a$$ed wimps!

Disclaimer: This opinion is not directed at any specific individual(s), just the limp weenies in general. If this post "offends" you, then it found its mark.








I think the MODS have show an ENORMOUS amount of patience with this thread, and the "lines of questioning" that are occuring.

I take my hat off to everyone of you!

You guys have the patience of Job. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif
 
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None of us want to know what you moderators discussed in your super secret council chambers. Some of us would like to know the set of facts that led you to your decision though. Its really not an unreasonable request.

Its very difficult for some of us to make an informed decision without the facts. Just becasue you have always done it this way does not make it right. You have a credibility problem going on here. The moderators keep telling us that NASA knows, Nasa knows, yet NASA is telling many of us that he doesnt know. Telling us personally. Funny thing is, many of us know NASA far better than just the guy that has posted on this board all these years. NASA is many things but I have never known him to be a liar. So who is lying Stu? You? Redfrog? How the heck would we as members know who is lying when no one will share the facts. You want members here to blindly trust your word over the word of a friend. You may very well be right, but prove to us that you are. Otherwise, many of us are going to have difficulty supporting you. So without some of those specifics that you are guarding so dearly, how do you propose we make a decision as to whether or not you have passed a righteous judgement on a fellow member and friend to many of us? NASA himself wants those reasons to be made public. If someone comes in here and posts irresponsibly and is publicly flogged for it then so be it. They should have excercised a little more self control. You or any of the other moderators are going to meet up with resistance when you come across with this self righteous indignation when faced with members questioning one of your decisions. Those of us that are members in good standing on this board do have a right to know whats going on whether you like it or not. Has nothing to do with estrogen or anything else. Its a matter of some of us wanting to know if we can even trust our leadership.



I started this post earlier and wasn't getting the wording the way I wanted it so I pulled it. Now with WSD's latest post it came together for me.

I, much like WSD, am most bothered by the clandestine manner in which this matter was handled. If Tom had it coming, so be it, he's a big boy. I think we all can handle it, just try it on us. I think you would be amazed how well we can handle the facts.

For those of you that need a dictionary for clandestine, as I did, here are several definitions:

....characterized by, done in, or executed with secrecy or concealment, esp. for purposes of subversion or deception; private or surreptitious.

....kept or done in secret, often in order to conceal an illicit or improper purpose.

....conducted with secrecy; withdrawn from public notice, usually for an evil purpose; kept secret; hidden; private; underhand.

....marked by, held in, or conducted with secrecy.

....kept secret or hidden, esp. for some illicit purpose; surreptitious; furtive.

....suspiciously secret, undercover, intentionally kept from the knowledge of others.

....undertaken or done so as to escape being observed or known by others.
 


Reged: 02/04/07
Posts: 178
Loc: Lincolnton, NC Quote Quick Reply



Out of date? He77,so am I. But, I still work. And, quite well I might add.




Would you say this post violates TOS? I do and it should have been edited but it wasn't so that goes to show me some can get away with more then others.
 
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None of us want to know what you moderators discussed in your super secret council chambers. Some of us would like to know the set of facts that led you to your decision though. Its really not an unreasonable request.

Its very difficult for some of us to make an informed decision without the facts. Just becasue you have always done it this way does not make it right. You have a credibility problem going on here. The moderators keep telling us that NASA knows, Nasa knows, yet NASA is telling many of us that he doesnt know. Telling us personally. Funny thing is, many of us know NASA far better than just the guy that has posted on this board all these years. NASA is many things but I have never known him to be a liar. So who is lying Stu? You? Redfrog? How the heck would we as members know who is lying when no one will share the facts. You want members here to blindly trust your word over the word of a friend. You may very well be right, but prove to us that you are. Otherwise, many of us are going to have difficulty supporting you. So without some of those specifics that you are guarding so dearly, how do you propose we make a decision as to whether or not you have passed a righteous judgement on a fellow member and friend to many of us? NASA himself wants those reasons to be made public. If someone comes in here and posts irresponsibly and is publicly flogged for it then so be it. They should have excercised a little more self control. You or any of the other moderators are going to meet up with resistance when you come across with this self righteous indignation when faced with members questioning one of your decisions. Those of us that are members in good standing on this board do have a right to know whats going on whether you like it or not. Has nothing to do with estrogen or anything else. Its a matter of some of us wanting to know if we can even trust our leadership.



I started this post earlier and wasn't getting the wording the way I wanted it so I pulled it. Now with WSD's latest post it came together for me.

I, much like WSD, am most bothered by the clandestine manner in which this matter was handled. If Tom had it coming, so be it, he's a big boy. I think we all can handle it, just try it on us. I think you would be amazed how well we can handle the facts.

For those of you that need a dictionary for clandestine, as I did, here are several definitions:

....characterized by, done in, or executed with secrecy or concealment, esp. for purposes of subversion or deception; private or surreptitious.

....kept or done in secret, often in order to conceal an illicit or improper purpose.

....conducted with secrecy; withdrawn from public notice, usually for an evil purpose; kept secret; hidden; private; underhand.

....marked by, held in, or conducted with secrecy.

....kept secret or hidden, esp. for some illicit purpose; surreptitious; furtive.

....suspiciously secret, undercover, intentionally kept from the knowledge of others.

....undertaken or done so as to escape being observed or known by others.




These are the TOS that EVERYONE of us READ and AGREED to IN ADVANCE in order to become members of this forum...

Pay close attention to #6...

As far as the BOARD RULES are concerned, there appear to be no secrets that I can see.....

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This idea of "if you don't like it, then go somewhere else" is bit odd to me. If you have something or someplace you really enjoy but you see it going astray,....the best option is to just abandon it or give up on it??? Looks to me like ALOT of people who truly enjoy PM are concerned about the direction of it and are only concerned that PM is not diminished. And then questions and concerns are met with sarcasm and the "well go somewhere else" mentality. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Timberbeast7..i agree with you 100%
there's a "bit" of that mentality going around here recently /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
Yellowhammer, thank you for the post of Will Craig’s dream list. I looked it up and read it a few weeks ago as this fiasco snowballed.

You need to add one more goal/achievment to Will's list to bring it up to current status:

Ignore common sense standards for conflict of interest and allow moderators to also serve a major advertiser to the extent that it appears to many members that the advertiser dominates the site. [/b]

With full respect and my sympathy, you/we will not solve this growing and chronic dissension until we solve the more basic issue of conflict of interest. That conflict underlies the majority of these conflicts.

Such dual allegiance is suspect at best, looks bad, IS bad as it has worked out at PM, and would not be allowed in most fields of endeavor.
 
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This idea of "if you don't like it, then go somewhere else" is bit odd to me. If you have something or someplace you really enjoy but you see it going astray,....the best option is to just abandon it or give up on it??? Looks to me like ALOT of people who truly enjoy PM are concerned about the direction of it and are only concerned that PM is not diminished. And then questions and concerns are met with sarcasm and the "well go somewhere else" mentality. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Timberbeast7..i agree with you 100%
there's a "bit" of that mentality going around here recently /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif



The "mentality" that are referring to usually occurs when someone wants to know "what really happened", and the moderators will not discuss it, or go into detail about their decision.

This person then begins making posts that are direct attacks on the MODS or other members when the MODS are being defended for their positions.

When it all comes to a "head", if the board member cannot take the MODS at their word, then they are reminded, usually by quite a few of us, that they are more than free to leave.

If you cannot take the moderators at their word, then the board member has a decision to make. They can either understand, "that's the way it is", or they can leave.

Making nasty comments and posts about the MODS and certain members is simply a vain attempt at circumventing the system, and, from what I can see, the MODS will not tolerate this, and quite frankly, if the MODS are attacked, certain members of this board, who have been here for quite a while, will open our mouths, and let the VIOLATORS know that they are acting inappropriately, and can; therefore, hit the bricks.

No one here wants anyone to leave, but then again, we certainly don't want to hear anyone whining about a rule that they were aware of in advance, and that they agreed to when they agreed to the Terms of Service on this board.

Jeff...
 
From a couple of subsequent posts, I think that my post on "clandestine" may have been a bit mis-understood and perhaps too strong.

Two points of clarification before I go on:

1. I firmly believe a published set of rules, that is strictly and universally enforced, is necessary for any organization to succeed. Otherwise their is anarchy.

2. I fully support and agree to the rules and TOS of PM, always have. Admittedly, I stumble once and a while but I still try to abide.

Having said that, it is how rules get interpreted and enforced that frequently becomes the issue. If this was not the case, why do we have multiple levels within our judicial system in this great country of ours? One of their primary functions is to "interpret" the rules.

Humor me for a few minutes longer as I present an example of what I am getting at:

Those of you that are members of the Amateur Trapshooting Association (ATA) know how they enforce their rules. When an infraction occurs, it is brought before the Board, a notice is issued to the perpetrator and an invitation is extended to him/her to attend a hearing. All of these proceedings, including the person's name who filed the complaint, the follow-on discussions, record of the Board motions and vote, etc, are all memorialized in the Board minutes and subsequently published in the ATA's official publication, "Trap & Field". Everything is out in the open.

A few years back I had two friends that were expelled from ATA for one year. It seems that they got into a little "fist-to-cuffs" after a shoot. Embarrassing to both of them it was. However, we all know what, why and how the Board voted. Everything was wide open and all the details were known.

Granted, this may be "over-kill" for an organization like PM , but none-the-less is a good policy in my opinion.

And as such, I would like to respectfully submit that the Board and Mods of this great organization consider a more open door policy.

Thanks for listening to my ranting.
 
This thread has run its course.
If we shut a thread down, we are accused of being heavy handed, If we let it run, we are accused of not being tough enough. PM has tried to leave it open for members to post in the hope that we could possibly clear up some misunderstanding or misinformation about the banning process here.

Some progress was made but there were also some who will never accept what they are told in these matters. Still others simply post to create drama and chaos.

As has been said before PM has a mission to maintain our "family friendly" forums. There are several other forums with different goals than we have. Those that are not comfortable working within our TOS and the policies of PM are of course free to go where they will be comfortable.

We have stated that disciplining members is a private matter between PM and the member. Our TOS prevent antone from posting items that disregard a person’s right to privacy. The people who are responsible for the administration and day to day running of this board decide what action needs to be taken. That will not change. It is the same every where. Only those who are responsible for an organization make the decisions.

If you have any suggestions or questions, please contact a moderator and ask that it be addressed.

We will not discuss any disciplinary action on an open board.
 
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