Unethical?!

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Originally Posted By: Mr. PoppadopalisLadies and Gentlemen of Predator Masters,

I am not sure if this is the place to air out my concerns/frustrations/annoyance but, I would be very interested in your honest feedback.

Perhaps I am being too critical?

Approximately 5 years ago i met a gentleman on PM who seemed at the time shared my interest. We began a Coyote hunting relationship thinking it would evolve into a "partnership". Understand that the 7 years prior to that I had invested a substantial amount of time, effort and energy in securing permission to hunt numerous private ranches and build rapport with these Ranchers. I was happy to bring this individual along to hunt on these ranches with me. Despite during the 5 years we hunted together only two times was I taken to ranches he had secured. To make a very long story short, the relationship never turned into the partnership and close to a year ago I ended things altogether There were numerous conversations as well as not so subtle hints, to no avail. So imagine my surprise to learn this individual ( See below) has recently started contacting a ranch I secured asking if he could hunt there now. Out of ALL the tens of millions of acres in WY/CO/NE, he can't even be creative enough to seek out something different. He ONLY knows of these people BECAUSE of me. I was floored Friday evening when I stopped at a ranch with a 12pack of Ice Cold Budweiser in hand for a gentlemen whom I have cultivated a relationship with the past 5 years to be told this individual had recently "stopped by to chat about hunting there". Where does he get off? How many ranches did he visit? It is now my #1 priority to reach out to each and every ranch in CO/NE to remind these ranches who they have a relationship with. My current situation has changed such that I will now be able to hunt more often, imagine my frustration at the thought of having to compete for kills on land I secured?!?!

Let em' rip folks - Appreciate it as always!

I'm going to be a bit more harsh, but don't take it that way trust me... I have had a lot of guys come into my area... "why?" because of what we do online, seriously, I've had guys come from states away asking my neighbors for permission that are 1.5 miles away that we have exclusive hunting rights on.
I know it's not right from my perspective, but I'm also the one who did it to myself by posting vids, pics, etc. I'm very hesitant and currently don't take anyone with us that isn't part of our team, BECAUSE these ranchers trust and expect us to fill a quota every year based on our agreement.

I say it's definitely 110% shot that your "partner" would do this.
I mean think about it, he now has all your contacts, he has all the knowledge and intel of every set you guys made, without having to hardly work at it. I would say next time, be more stringent on picking who you add to your team, or don't add them, it may be hard to see the path of what's to come years in advance, but sometimes it's better to just roll solo.
 
Originally Posted By: crapshootShould of signed a prenup.

lol.gif
 
Sorry to hear that he did that to you Mr. P. It's just not right.

I will say though, and you know this.. If you don't own it, it's not yours. If those ranchers want to allow him on the land, it's the ranchers choice. People like that get themselves un-invited fairly fast. But, if that land owner is going to let them in, then hes not the only one that is out there doing what you do either.

They can't hunt everywhere, and you may have to alter your schedule and when you make your rounds.

The only good thing is that there is lots of coyotes out there, and even if he is out there hunting the same area's the most satisfying thing is seeing that you are getting better results then they are.

I am sure that it's happened to many of us. I don't take new people to my honey spots for this same reason, They will always be there weekend after weekend in the same places, since they didn't learn how to read the land and look at it from the carry capacity, most just plot the GPS and don't do the critical thinking.

There is plenty of land out there. This can be a good chance to find new spots.

Sorry it happened to you.
 
Originally Posted By: Bad Dawg

And what would that accomplish? Be the better man. Contact the landowners, contact the person via email or text and let him know you are disappointed in him and will no longer be hunting with him, call it a loss and move on.



i think this nails it right here. Take the higher road.

I'd be paying a visit to anywhere you let him tag along, have a brief conversation with the landowner about your parting ways with the fella and that you're no longer associated with him. If they choose to let him continue to hunt the ground, thats on them, but at least his future actions will then have no consequences for you.

i wouldnt provide any more details other than you parted ways for a variety of reasons - unless they absolutely press you for them - and that he's operating completely independently of you and without your blessing going forward. This is as much as a CYA for you as it is to notify the folks who you have a long term relationship with that he's now an independent entity, regardless of what he may or may not have told them. however they NEED to know that you two parted ways on less than friendly terms and that your hunting relationship (and personal from the sound of it) is over indefinitely as i'm sure that will weigh heavily on their decision to continue or remove any future hunting rights for the guy. Plus we all know how well the country grapevine works. Let them talk to their friends and neighbors too.


act fast and get in front of him if you can. if they hear it from you first, all the better. If not the sooner you show up on their doorstep after he gets there, the more comfortable they're likely to feel about it. i would hope the length of the relationship you have with the landowners should help verify your side of whatever story he may or may not have told them about you two parting ways.


best of luck, cut him off at the knees!
 
Originally Posted By: jcs271I know that I would be very frustrated if somebody did that to me. I don't think it is at all unreasonable for you to share your thoughts and concerns with the landowners you currently work with. I would basically tell them exactly what you just told us.

I am in the process!

Originally Posted By: Bad DawgMan that's too bad. People are weird. Karma's real. It will come back to him eventually.

He wouldn't know if Karma knocked on his front door!
Originally Posted By: 6724It is unethical. But then these days, just about half the population is a bunch of morons that think the world owes them something.

I know of whom you are talking, I never cared to hunt with him. I am a person that does not get along with many, but perhaps it is because I have a low tolerance for B.S.

Do what you need to do to inform land owners of him. You are an ethical hunter and have worked to get where you are, don't let him creep in and ruin that!

Yes, you know him personally and you are spot on! He was never a "Partner" only a ride along sucking the life out of me!

Originally Posted By: 204 ARDang it that is B.S! Completely unethical and sad to see. I hope you don't lose any land him Mr. P! I believe most ranchers will see through what is going on. Good luck!

204,
We have hunted together and it was a Great time, I would welcome you back anytime!
Sad indeed but I think all of this will fall onto his DEAF ears. I do believe I have switched one large ranch around after having a long conversation. He may get a few small parcels if he is lucky! Because we know he is not good and his demeanor is not good for the sport!

Originally Posted By: huntschoolThat sucks......

As an old guy, it pi$$#@ me off when someone does stuff like that. I am pretty open with my lands with several of my buds as are they with me. We never go on each others country without the lead guy being there.

I am not sure if this is the younger crowd or not...... either way it sucks

Huntschool,

Sounds like you and your friends has ethics, morals and a true understanding of a "Partnership"

Originally Posted By: Willy BrotzThat sucks. Would you mind sharing the name of the scoundrel that is slithering in on your hunting areas? You might try to give him a little payback. Maybe next time he goes out there take 2 tires off his truck. Or take the drive shaft. I'm sure you can get creative.

Willy,
Some things you can get thrown into jail for, as for paying him back? Karma is one of my best friends:)Originally Posted By: 3xwtMr. P-Thanks for the heads up. And thanks for the reminder to pick hunting partners very carefully. Some people can't be trusted. So sad. I would be pissed. That's a big no no where I come from. You never low crawl a hunting partner. And if someone takes you to 'their' territory, you better never go back there uninvited.

At a minimum, I would give him a piece of my mind. Additionally, I would reach out to all the landowners again and ensure their good graces (advise them of who is actually in your hunting party). I would hate for him to show up to one of your areas, screw something up and you get the blame.

Some peoples lack of ethics/morals is sooo disappointing.


Matt,
You hit the nail on the head! You and I have hunted together and it was a good time!
Hopefully I will see you after you are done with Big game season!

Originally Posted By: Bowhntr6ptThat's quite lame... and a BIG reason why people are not willing to share hunts with others.



Bowhntr6pt,
Again, just a guy looking for a hunting partner to share the hunt with. Yes, this one bit hard!
Sad thing is he liked to bring along a friend of his when I wasn't around. I am sure he was working his back door agenda for quite awhile prior to the end.

Originally Posted By: Norm DahlThat sucks Mr. P, hope the fleas of 1000 mangy coyotes infest his armpits and he stubs his toe every morning......

I also had a falling out with a longtime hunting partner, we are civil and chat at fishing tourneys and when we see each other. But I know where he hunts and I stay west of there, coyotes are have more white in my AO anyhow.

But I give him his space and he has plenty of country to himself.

Norm,
That's just it, he has the entire state of Wyoming to hunt, yet he chooses to step onto my ranches!
I used to tell him to go out on his own, knock on doors in Wyoming for "New" places for us to hunt. He would spend a day knocking on doors, ranch after ranch all he got was No! No! No! No!
I am sure he is not telling most ranches that I kicked him to the curb, he is probably throwing my name out at every ranch.

Originally Posted By: Jim ByersThere are some lines that should never be crossed. That's one of them.

He has no people skills and yes, he has crossed that line! Beware of him is all I can say to the fine folks here on PM!

Originally Posted By: ToddNEStory's like this make me very careful who i take hunting. I would just tell the landowners whats going on they should be understanding

ToddNE,
I really enjoy taking new people, it is usually for a day or so. This was a 5 year partnership and it failed miserably. Never did I imagine he would turn into a slithering snake in the grass!
 
That is what the world is coming to. As more and more people are competing for less and less property. You cannot expect to claim any property that you dont own. As the population of this country increases more and more conflicts will occur. Forget about global warming, it is over population that will ruin this country.
 
Originally Posted By: ThomC That is what the world is coming to. As more and more people are competing for less and less property. You cannot expect to claim any property that you dont own. As the population of this country increases more and more conflicts will occur. Forget about global warming, it is over population that will ruin this country.

ThomC,
Never said I owned the properties. Like I did say, he has the entire state of Wyoming yet he cannot access any ranches there. He told me that he would knock on doors on his day off yet never gained access to any ranches in Wyoming other than the two he hunted prior to our hooking up. He took me twice and I gave the ranch managers bottles of booze to compensate for their time and access.

At one time he sent me an email asking me to bring up a case of booze so he could take care of some of the ranches he never gained access to.
I denied his request.

Originally Posted By: Plant.OneOriginally Posted By: Bad Dawg

And what would that accomplish? Be the better man. Contact the landowners, contact the person via email or text and let him know you are disappointed in him and will no longer be hunting with him, call it a loss and move on.



i think this nails it right here. Take the higher road.

I'd be paying a visit to anywhere you let him tag along, have a brief conversation with the landowner about your parting ways with the fella and that you're no longer associated with him. If they choose to let him continue to hunt the ground, thats on them, but at least his future actions will then have no consequences for you.

i wouldnt provide any more details other than you parted ways for a variety of reasons - unless they absolutely press you for them - and that he's operating completely independently of you and without your blessing going forward. This is as much as a CYA for you as it is to notify the folks who you have a long term relationship with that he's now an independent entity, regardless of what he may or may not have told them.


act fast and get in front of him if you can. if they hear it from you first, all the better. If not the sooner you show up on their doorstep after he gets there, the more comfortable they're likely to feel about it. i would hope the length of the relationship you have with the landowners should help verify your side of whatever story he may or may not have told them about you two parting ways.


best of luck, cut him off at the knees!

Plant,
It's in the process:)
I will need to take some time to speak to each and every rancher, I do know that quite a few ranchers will not allow him access with out me and some ranches don't want him anywhere near their land.

Originally Posted By: skinneyOriginally Posted By: Mr. PoppadopalisLadies and Gentlemen of Predator Masters,

I am not sure if this is the place to air out my concerns/frustrations/annoyance but, I would be very interested in your honest feedback.

Perhaps I am being too critical?

Approximately 5 years ago i met a gentleman on PM who seemed at the time shared my interest. We began a Coyote hunting relationship thinking it would evolve into a "partnership". Understand that the 7 years prior to that I had invested a substantial amount of time, effort and energy in securing permission to hunt numerous private ranches and build rapport with these Ranchers. I was happy to bring this individual along to hunt on these ranches with me. Despite during the 5 years we hunted together only two times was I taken to ranches he had secured. To make a very long story short, the relationship never turned into the partnership and close to a year ago I ended things altogether There were numerous conversations as well as not so subtle hints, to no avail. So imagine my surprise to learn this individual ( See below) has recently started contacting a ranch I secured asking if he could hunt there now. Out of ALL the tens of millions of acres in WY/CO/NE, he can't even be creative enough to seek out something different. He ONLY knows of these people BECAUSE of me. I was floored Friday evening when I stopped at a ranch with a 12pack of Ice Cold Budweiser in hand for a gentlemen whom I have cultivated a relationship with the past 5 years to be told this individual had recently "stopped by to chat about hunting there". Where does he get off? How many ranches did he visit? It is now my #1 priority to reach out to each and every ranch in CO/NE to remind these ranches who they have a relationship with. My current situation has changed such that I will now be able to hunt more often, imagine my frustration at the thought of having to compete for kills on land I secured?!?!

Let em' rip folks - Appreciate it as always!

I'm going to be a bit more harsh, but don't take it that way trust me... I have had a lot of guys come into my area... "why?" because of what we do online, seriously, I've had guys come from states away asking my neighbors for permission that are 1.5 miles away that we have exclusive hunting rights on.
I know it's not right from my perspective, but I'm also the one who did it to myself by posting vids, pics, etc. I'm very hesitant and currently don't take anyone with us that isn't part of our team, BECAUSE these ranchers trust and expect us to fill a quota every year based on our agreement.

I say it's definitely 110% shot that your "partner" would do this.
I mean think about it, he now has all your contacts, he has all the knowledge and intel of every set you guys made, without having to hardly work at it. I would say next time, be more stringent on picking who you add to your team, or don't add them, it may be hard to see the path of what's to come years in advance, but sometimes it's better to just roll solo.

Spot on James!

That is what a guy gets for being tooooooo nice I guess.
Lesson has been learned and I will grow from it!

He is just like a snake in the grass, waiting to pounce. He will strike again!
A member on PM is probably his next victim, I have told him but currently it is falling on deaf ears!!

Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZSorry to hear that he did that to you Mr. P. It's just not right.

I will say though, and you know this.. If you don't own it, it's not yours. If those ranchers want to allow him on the land, it's the ranchers choice. People like that get themselves un-invited fairly fast. But, if that land owner is going to let them in, then hes not the only one that is out there doing what you do either.

They can't hunt everywhere, and you may have to alter your schedule and when you make your rounds.

The only good thing is that there is lots of coyotes out there, and even if he is out there hunting the same area's the most satisfying thing is seeing that you are getting better results then they are.

I am sure that it's happened to many of us. I don't take new people to my honey spots for this same reason, They will always be there weekend after weekend in the same places, since they didn't learn how to read the land and look at it from the carry capacity, most just plot the GPS and don't do the critical thinking.

There is plenty of land out there. This can be a good chance to find new spots.

Sorry it happened to you.

TBone,

Like I said earlier, Karma is my best friend.

All I can say to the ethical members of PM, be very aware of this person, he shoots prairie dogs at 700 yards and gut shoots Coyotes at 100.

If he is truly a man and a man of his word I encourage him to chime in on this thread, he is more than welcome to say his thoughts and possibly he will explain his side of this story.

Or he can continue the crawl through the grass!

 
What I have found is that there will always be those guys who will take advantage of your kindness when you take someone out. They will go back to your spots and hunt them out. Is it ethical? No. Ethics really aren't taught the way they should be these days.

That being said, most guys like that are just wanna be's. I used to worry about all the "new" predator hunters flooding our sport. Recently I have noticed that there are less and less "new" predator hunters, maybe because they are finding out just how hard the sport really is to get to be good at. Oh sure, you will see an occasional Wal-martian hunter or Cabelas guy out there wailing away with their caller. But they seem to drop off pretty quick.

Those of us who are truly committed (or should be committed) stay at it and can do it anytime, any place. Let the wanna be's keep going back to the same spots over and over and over again...
 
I just contacted another 3 ranches.

2 haven't seen him and the other said he called them about 7 months ago.
(Rancher was trying to remember when he called and the timing may be off a bit)

He won't be hunting these three ranches as long as I can still walk.

Now another166 ranches to contact in Colorado and Nebraska the next few weeks.
The good thing is I keep really good notes
 
Mr Pop I was not criticizing you, just making an observation that nobody seems to want to talk about. But, now you have exposed yourself. You need to lockup 169 ranches to hunt on then you must be making money guiding people. So, you get paid to take someone hunting and you think that they will not go back to some of "YOUR" ranches and hunt? Me thinks that it is not your ethics that is butt hurt, it is your pocketbook$$$$$.
 
I would not even be able to enjoy the hunt if I did that to somebody. When I was younger I used to invite people, then I saw it was a one way street when it came to them taking me on their land.

If I had 166 ranches, spread across 3 states I would just forget that guy. Hunting everyday year round and you are still not going to be able to hit all that land more than a time or two, especially if you can’t hunt as much as you used to. If he still has access to places you took him to, just go out there and call the [beeep] out of it, after repeatedly striking out, he will lose interest in that spot.
 
Originally Posted By: ThomCMr Pop I was not criticizing you, just making an observation that nobody seems to want to talk about. But, now you have exposed yourself. You need to lockup 169 ranches to hunt on then you must be making money guiding people. So, you get paid to take someone hunting and you think that they will not go back to some of "YOUR" ranches and hunt? Me thinks that it is not your ethics that is butt hurt, it is your pocketbook$$$$$.

Thomc,

A you F'ing kidding me??

At one time I would let the Coyotes lay, now in the good months I keep them until the fur buyer comes around.

I am sure a few people that have hunted with me will begin to chime in on your lame azzed remark, getting paid to "Guide" is the last thing I am looking for!!

Every newbie old or young, experienced or not that have hunted with me have NEVER paid a dime for me to "Guide" and they have never paid a dime for fuel when I drove!! All have offered money and I have refused to take even gas money.

Your sir are either Blind, not very intelligent or the person I am talking about!
 
It is a lot of land, however in open eastern colorado, one guy can hunt a ton of ground in a day. A guy who doesn't care about it might blast calls so loud that every coyote for 3 miles hears it, then educate them all with poor setups and such.

I hunt alone mostly, and mostly because nearly everyone that I have taken with me takes their friends the next year. Honey holes have turned to excrement. Areas I could consistently take 3 or 4 out of every year became worthless for calling. I even had guys sitting over my bait! I have had guys follow me around to see where I was hunting.
Some people can't figure it out for themselves and will leach off of anyone they can.

I hunted with the person who is the subject of this thread. I did not care for him as a person from day one. And, he is a liar. He posts pictures of coyotes he did not kill, posts pictures of the same coyote claiming it as a different one. He lies about the number of coyotes he kills, and the ranges he kills them at.
He has to drive to get to where Pops hunts. Why can't he drive the other way???? Wyoming has tons of public land, and few people.
 
Originally Posted By: 6724It is a lot of land, however in open eastern colorado, one guy can hunt a ton of ground in a day. A guy who doesn't care about it might blast calls so loud that every coyote for 3 miles hears it, then educate them all with poor setups and such.

I hunt alone mostly, and mostly because nearly everyone that I have taken with me takes their friends the next year. Honey holes have turned to excrement. Areas I could consistently take 3 or 4 out of every year became worthless for calling. I even had guys sitting over my bait! I have had guys follow me around to see where I was hunting.
Some people can't figure it out for themselves and will leach off of anyone they can.

I hunted with the person who is the subject of this thread. I did not care for him as a person from day one. And, he is a liar. He posts pictures of coyotes he did not kill, posts pictures of the same coyote claiming it as a different one. He lies about the number of coyotes he kills, and the ranges he kills them at.
He has to drive to get to where Pops hunts. Why can't he drive the other way???? Wyoming has tons of public land, and few people.

Well said!

6724,
You have hunted with me numerous times, did you ever pay me? Even one red cent??
Who paid for gas?


Update:
I have been doing my homework, and I am getting confirmation from my closest (Relationship)ranches, I know where he has been and he is failing!
Seems Colorado ranchers do not like him either, he will start finding this out shortly.

 
Sucks to have to read this thread. Sorry to see your misadventure.

It's really too bad because now you or anyone that this has happened to will be either more hesitant to take on a new partner or will completely disregard the idea of a new partner. Even worse is that a great friendship could be made but now it's unknown.

Good for you for taking the high road and not throwing his name out there, but if he starts or continues to be a pain in this thread or on pm's, expose him. Save other members the headache
 
Yep, the exact battle I've been fighting as a niw guy. Can't say I blame guys after reading something like this. Some people just have no respect.
 
I totally get that getting access like this guy did is pretty shady. I've had similar scenarios happen to me.

BUT, in general, I have no sympathy for anyone in my area who has "exclusive" access to 169 properties and gets upset when he loses a few. Afterall, you're not the only hunter trying to get access to hunt. What about the little guys or newbies that get repetedly turned down by ranchers because most of the THOUSANDS OF ACRES of decent land is "exclusively" hunted by a single old timer? Sometimes those properties only get called once a year during a contest or whenever the guy finally gets around to it. Is that really fair to everybody else? I guess "fair" is subjective.

What are the "ethics" of locking up exclusive access to so much land that you can't possibly hunt it all while others are locked out?
 
Some very interesting point of views coming in on this forum! Not agreeing or disagreeing! Just find it interesting!
 
Originally Posted By: ThomCMr Pop I was not criticizing you, just making an observation that nobody seems to want to talk about. But, now you have exposed yourself. You need to lockup 169 ranches to hunt on then you must be making money guiding people. So, you get paid to take someone hunting and you think that they will not go back to some of "YOUR" ranches and hunt? Me thinks that it is not your ethics that is butt hurt, it is your pocketbook$$$$$.

no, No, NO!!!! You got it all wrong, Mr P. was most generous in asking me along multiple times. That's not even counting the phone calls with advice. I had the time once and learned a lot, and he wouldn't take a dime even though the expense was all on him. He worked a coyote that seemed completely disinterested from 3/4 mile away to within a couple hundred yards and I failed to get a shot. I look forward to hopefully going along again this fall! So little time with kids sports, work, and an acreage to keep up. BTW I can bring along my new (to me) 800 RZR to get us around in if it works out...
 
Dirty Dog,
Great questions

1. I do NOThave exclusivity on all the ranches. I spoke with a couple today. I told him I wouldn't be on his 20,000 acre ranch until the 3rd of December because he likes to hunt his land for a tournament on the 2nd.
Called another ranch which a about 5,000 acres. I cannot hunt it until his dad (75) and brother come out from South Carolina for a Coyote hunt in early November.
)2. I have a personal relationship with every single one of them and they like and appreciate me, I do things on their ranch such as helping with castration, injections, weighing, sweeping the shop floor, installing a cattle guard on Thanksgiving day.
3. Do I hunt every single one of the ranches every year? Nope! Not even close but i try.
 
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