Ultimate Long Range AR in the AR-15 Platform?

With a temperature of 70 degrees and an elevation of 430' here at my house the total drop is about 460". I keep a 100 yard zero on the rifle, and it I have to come up 42.5 MOA from my 100 yard zero to get on target at 1K.

Nothing magic about the bullets, it is just a good rifle with a good load. Makes things easier at long range. I am lucky there aren't many places east of the Mississippi that a person can shoot to 1000+ yards safely from his house. I live in such a place. I walk out the back door sit down at my bench, or fold out the bipod legs and have it. I shoot at long range every day the weather is fit, and family obligations are not pressing.

PaPa 260
 
You are very lucky to have a range so close by.
What size groups are you getting at this range with your grendel?
My 6.5x06 shoots so flat it is magic to me.
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I am very lucky to be able shoot any time I want, by just walking off the porch. Very few people can do that regardless of where they live. The rifle is hanging right at 1.25 MOA at 1K if I do my job in the wind. I had one group with four shots in 6 1/2" the fifth shot was fired in a slight pick up of the wind and I didn't hold off quite far enough and it opened the group up to 14 1/4". I really believe if I could catch a dead calm day the rifle is capable of a sub 1 MOA 5 shot group from 1K. If I can catch that dead calm day, I will be shooting.

The 6.5 x 06 is a very flat shooting round. A buddy of mine has a 6.5 X 06 A.I. and it shoots very well. What bullet are you shooting in it? Do you hunt with it or is a dedicated long range rifle?

PaPa 260
 
Originally Posted By: daddyfleaSorry but a 308 in an AR platform is not reliable past 800 yds. The reason for this is that 308 when shot past 800 with normal bullets starts to yaw as the velocity drops under the speed of sound. Long range 308 shooters use hotrodded bullets or most commonly 175 gr bullets should as Berger VLDs or even 185s. These long bullets do fine in bolts especially when loaded one at a time but are not suited for magazines. A Berger 185 at 1000 yds out of a 308 is very accurate though.

??? how did i do this with my 308 armalite ??? 175 SMK HPBT fit well in my mag @ an OAL of 2.810, all bullets pitch and yaw, wether it be in the first hundred meters, or in the transonic stage, when the bullet goes to sleep is where you need to keep it, and my loads work great out to 1000M, got plenty more vids of 400M -1000M with the same rifle and the MK11 MOD 0. 308 a great long range round IMHO.

 
Papa260, my 6.5x06 is a hunting rifle. Using 129gr. SST Hornaday blems I scored many years ago, wish I had doubled my order way back then..
I hope to get some time to do some development soon..
 
Originally Posted By: PaPa 260Which is best on the AR 15 platform is an argument that will never be settled. The Grendel is pretty decent out to 1K. I have a Grendel with a 20" E.R. Shaw barrel non chrome lined with a 1 in 9 twist that works well out to 1K. I am using a Sierra 107 gr. MatchKing on top of 28.0 gr. of Benchmark, in Lapua brass with a Rem. 7 1/2 primer. Velocity runs 2680 fps, and is still supersonic at 1K. It is no problem to keep the shots on an 18" steel plate if the conditions are decent.

The rifle does have a float tube and a tuned Armalite national match trigger. Right now I have a Leupold 6.5 X 20 X 50 LRT scope on it. That scope is due to come off and a 4.5 X 14 X 40 Leupold will be put on it for hunting.

What really surprised me about this little rifle, is the E.R. Shaw barrel. I don't know about other barrels from Shaw, but this on is a shooter.

PaPa 260

Got any pics of this rifle?? Sounds awesome. The 6.5 is calling....
 
Originally Posted By: daddyfleaSorry but a 308 in an AR platform is not reliable past 800 yds. The reason for this is that 308 when shot past 800 with normal bullets starts to yaw as the velocity drops under the speed of sound. Long range 308 shooters use hotrodded bullets or most commonly 175 gr bullets should as Berger VLDs or even 185s. These long bullets do fine in bolts especially when loaded one at a time but are not suited for magazines. A Berger 185 at 1000 yds out of a 308 is very accurate though.

You have me scratching my head with that one.

I have shot more rounds than I care to remember out of issued M24s and M110s (Reed Knight SR25s) and I do not recall any yaw issues. The ammunition, M118LR is loaded with a 175 grain Sierra Matchking. It is neither a "hotrodded bullet" nor too long for SR-25 mags.

In fact, early last year I spent a month doing a sniper selection/train up. 50% of our time was with issued SR-25s and no one ever had any issues past 800 yards. I have shot .308/7.62 past 800 in various altitudes, temps and continents. No issues.

I am not sure where you get your information, but my experiences differ substantially.


SanitizedMK112.jpg


suppressedSR25SamawahRooftop.jpg
 
Lost_river,
I like the pics of the MK11's, got the MOD 0 system waiting for the range, takin off the leupy, and puttin on a NXS, my SR is a shooter, i'm sure this one will be as well.
thanks for the pics.
 
Originally Posted By: Lost_RiverOriginally Posted By: daddyfleaSorry but a 308 in an AR platform is not reliable past 800 yds. The reason for this is that 308 when shot past 800 with normal bullets starts to yaw as the velocity drops under the speed of sound. Long range 308 shooters use hotrodded bullets or most commonly 175 gr bullets should as Berger VLDs or even 185s. These long bullets do fine in bolts especially when loaded one at a time but are not suited for magazines. A Berger 185 at 1000 yds out of a 308 is very accurate though.

You have me scratching my head with that one.

I have shot more rounds than I care to remember out of issued M24s and M110s (Reed Knight SR25s) and I do not recall any yaw issues. The ammunition, M118LR is loaded with a 175 grain Sierra Matchking. It is neither a "hotrodded bullet" nor too long for SR-25 mags.

In fact, early last year I spent a month doing a sniper selection/train up. 50% of our time was with issued SR-25s and no one ever had any issues past 800 yards. I have shot .308/7.62 past 800 in various altitudes, temps and continents. No issues.

I am not sure where you get your information, but my experiences differ substantially.



You are correct on the 175s but most people buy their bullets from Walmart and the standard bullet is 150gr for 308. The 150s just won't carry that far before they lose too much velocity. Between 800 and 1000 you will see the lighter bullets start to key hole. I got that information from shooting long range 1000 yard match. I laid beside a Marine from Pendalton who shot a perfect score at 1000 with a Palma gun with open sights in a 20mph crosswind. I shoot pretty good but I never got that good. At the higher pressures and with longer bullets 185 vld they were even too long for my bolt gun. I have been out of the game for many years now and I was not aware you could buy 175s already loaded anywhere. I have not shot a factory load in over 30 years. Also I think Armalite uses a different magazine than other brands. I now only hunt and right now I only shoot 125s in the 308 and they shoot really good at 500 but that is as far as I can test them.
 
Originally Posted By: daddyflea I have been out of the game for many years now and I was not aware you could buy 175s already loaded anywhere. I have not shot a factory load in over 30 years. Also I think Armalite uses a different magazine than other brands.

Black hills Ammo has factory 175's and they fit in the mags as well, http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=878863
Armalite has a different style of mag than the SR-25, DPMS or POF style mags, but 175's will fit in the Armalite mag just the same (OAL 2.810).
 
No worries DaddyFlea,

Most major ammo manufacturers, and a ton of smaller custom manufacturers these days offer some variant of the M118LR/175 smk load. My local Sportsman's Warehouse even carry them (Federal Gold Medal Match) now and again.

There is so much stuff on the market these days none of us can really be up to speed on every aspect of shooting sports. I wouldn't sweat it

Happy Shooting and have a great Memorial Day weekend!
 
So...back to thread topic, (because you guys know that a 7.62 NATO can't be fired in the "Ultimate AR-15 platform")

Have any of you folks done much experimenting with the 30 cal varients of the WSSM case? Olympic Arms just came out with one that is really close to (or maybe the same as) the one Mike Milli has been working on for several years. Anyone with real world experience on either? Or would a smaller caliber be better from the same case?

Thanks.
 
i have heard some good things about the 300. OSSM, but havent seen or shot it LR, i have a guy who is interested in purchasing one, and the wait time isn't bad (like 4-6 weeks). I'm sure it will hold its own against the 7.62 or AR-10 variants, if he decides to go with the Olympic OSSM, i will let you know how it turns out @ my 1000M range, and give you a range report.
 
i wouldnt be supprised if the 7mmWSSM is a little better than the 300OSSM but you'd have to ask mike about the ballistics. the only problem with the WSSM Case, heavy bullets, and the AR(15) platform is the OAL issues.
Getting the high bc bullets to fit is where all the problems start. If someone gets 175smk's to rock and roll out of the 300OSSM i will be shocked. (but sign me up for the recipe)

i've heard good stores and bad stories so far...I was very interested in the OSSM until 3 days ago when i found out that it will be at least another year before I draw an Elk tag. (i struck out again) maybe some accuracy improvements will be made by then.

the stories i've heard show GREAT ballistics but the real world experience ive seen at various forums says 1-1.5 MOA with the factory HSM ammo will be lucky.

The ultimate long range AR will come when someone finds a way to get the HIGH BC .243, 6.5 and 7mm bullets to be loaded in the WSSM case. Right now the 6mmAR 40 Turbo is probably the closest to making it happen since guys are getting the 105 and 108 VLD bullets to fly at or above 2900fps
 
Originally Posted By: cbass16The ultimate long range AR will come when someone finds a way to get the HIGH BC .243, 6.5 and 7mm bullets to be loaded in the WSSM case. Right now the 6mmAR 40 Turbo is probably the closest to making it happen since guys are getting the 105 and 108 VLD bullets to fly at or above 2900fps
The 6mmAR 40 Turbo has an 8-twist barrel, with a smaller case capacity then the WSSM case. The case capacity on the 6mmAR 40 Turbo is fine but it will never out do the 243 WSSM once you have an 8-twist barrel on the WSSM and the twists are the same.
 
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Originally Posted By: cbass16i wouldnt be supprised if the 7mmWSSM is a little better than the 300OSSM but you'd have to ask mike about the ballistics. the only problem with the WSSM Case, heavy bullets, and the AR(15) platform is the OAL issues.
Yes, i do believe the 7mm has a better form factor and BC than any of the 30 cal bullets. I have done a little research on this and most berger vld's have the secant ogive, as compared to the tangent that is present with the sierra match kings, this is important when loading rounds that are seated back from the lands, (a problem that may be a problem in some different AR platforms ie. a WSSM that wont let you load an OAL round as long a you would like, due to mag restrictions) the tangent ogive will align itself in the riflings better than the secant, due to the smooth round arc that meets the bearing surface of the bullet, in a secant ogive the angle that meets the bearing surface is not as circular and round its more of an angular abrupt change, which would not align as well as the tangent circular ogive when seated further from the riflings.
the SMK on the left is a tangent ogive, and the berger VLD on the right is an example of an secant ogive, in the pic its very hard to tell the difference of the ogive angle that joins the bearing surface, it is easier to see in real life.
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Originally Posted By: mbkmkkOriginally Posted By: cbass16The ultimate long range AR will come when someone finds a way to get the HIGH BC .243, 6.5 and 7mm bullets to be loaded in the WSSM case. Right now the 6mmAR 40 Turbo is probably the closest to making it happen since guys are getting the 105 and 108 VLD bullets to fly at or above 2900fps
The 6mmAR 40 Turbo has an 8-twist barrel, with a smaller case capacity then the WSSM case. The case capacity on the 6mmAR 40 Turbo is fine but it will never out do the 243 WSSM once you have an 8-twist barrel on the WSSM and the twists are the same.

hey Mbkmkk! nice to hear from you again. how those 95's holding up? Get your 243WSSM back from Dtech yet?

I agree that the wssms have more POTENTIAL but for now, there is no way to (or at least a very small chance to) get the longer VLD bullets to work at 2.26 OAL. If someone finds a way to load up the 107 VLD bullets in a WSSM case to fit in an AR mag...let me know. It's been done with the Turbo, Whos got the recipe for the WSSMs?
 
The 95's shoot "lights out" and I am going P-Dog hunting on Tuesday with my first D-Tech upper using the 95 B-Tip's.

The Oly mags alow me a OAL of 2.290.

I got my upper back last week and looking for the scope I want, but I may just use my BDC Monarch, even though I want a Mil-dot.

I have rounds already put together using the 107SMK, the 105 Nosler Comps and A-Max's. I am not a fan of the VDL, but I will try them later after the 107 SMK's and the 105 A-Max's.
 
For long range shooting there is no need to have them fit a magazine. Single loading works well and is the only thing allowed in long range competition.

Jack
 
Originally Posted By: Jack RobertsFor long range shooting there is no need to have them fit a magazine. Single loading works well and is the only thing allowed in long range competition.

Jack

i dont disagree one bit, if i could get 95's or 100s to group out of my 1:9 i would have no problem single loading. BUT. that defeats the whole purpose of having an AR.
 
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