Run off with the 223

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGAnyone who has regular spinners and/or runners with 223 or any other reasonable gun/bullet combo is a poor marksman. End of story.

Poor marksmanship includes intentionally aiming an accurate rifle at the guts and then hitting the guts exactly where you aimed (or clip the back of the lung or liver which causes rumners and spinners).
Ive had a runner with a 6x6.8 with a 70 bt at 3275 fps....do I suck? Lol!
 
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When you hunt with thermal that has floating poi shift in different temps I would not advise aiming too far to the front of a coyote. I hang back to make sure I hit fur. Wind blowing, shooting off of less than perfectly stable tripod coyotes that don't like to stand still etc adds up to spinners and runners. Throw the lack of depth perception with thermal and a fast flat round is gonna be better. Then you throw in trying to time doubles with you buddy. Not easy.
 
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Originally Posted By: tripod3I have more spinners and runners with .223 so I use .22-250 shooting the same bullet.
I don't have to qualify my answer cause it works.

There you go right there.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGAnyone who has regular spinners and/or runners with 223 or any other reasonable gun/bullet combo is a poor marksman. End of story.

Poor marksmanship includes intentionally aiming an accurate rifle at the guts and then hitting the guts exactly where you aimed (or clip the back of the lung or liver which causes rumners and spinners).

What? A center mass shot doesn’t DRT? Lol ...I’m on the same page...and use my 243 99.9% percent of the time now because I like to watch coyotes explode like ground hogs. But when I do use one of my 223/5.56’s they DRT as well because of my precise shot placement. I don’t spray and pray. Yes there aren’t perfect scenarios or situations when it comes to coyote hunting but life doesn’t stop for me if I can’t take a perfect, ethical shot. If I can’t I won’t start dumping rounds or feel I NEED to take a shot just because I see a coyote and end up educating it in the process. I’ll call it in again another day. It’s just like deer hunting once you educate that buck with a miss or movement the odds are they’re not coming back in that area during shooting hours. Times 100 with yotes. Once you realize life doesn’t stop If you don’t get a shot and keep your cool you’ll start taking your time with shots and get more DRTing. You just have to have shot enough of them to not get over excited as most do and flinch or pull the trigger as they walk out of the shot or pull the trigger while they are on a 100 yard dash with the crosshairs behind the shoulder and wonder why they didn’t drop it as dirt flew 12’ in back of the dog. There’s a lot of hunters that have to take shots at every coyote in their sight whether their going to hit it or not and never can understand why they didn’t hit or find it. I’ve taken many of these guys out with me. It’s like they think their in a race or competition and start taking shots at dogs crossing front of other shooters or way too far out for their comfort zone and miss. Holly heck brakes loose between the gunners when the shooting is over. I learned to call solo after a few of these ordeals or just call for one guy without a gun in my hands. It seems like when you have two shooters sitting on a call their blood pressure goes up and there’s a big competition to who’s going to draw first blood and a lot of misses and EXCUSES why the bullet soposidly hit it’s mark but the dog still bolted.
 
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I am a total failure .One year I lost 50 lambs to coyotes .I would have taken a running shot at 1000 yards with no rest .I need therapy now .
 
Well the internet is the one place you will be sure to find people who never have runners and never miss. I have both.....
 
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223Well the internet is the one place you will be sure to find people who never have runners and never miss. I have both.....

So true. I love a lot of what I am reading on this one. Not a lot of keyboard commandos here. I used a .223 for years with no hesitation and I would grab one today in a hearbeat. I built a .308 on our 10 platform to iron out bugs and offer customers that option. I admit it got it's hooks back into me and is my regular coyote rig.

I will back up what most guys are saying with...practice, practice, practice. Most don't even come close to enough practice. I was at the range yesterday and missed a running shot today. It happens. So I will add some drills this week.

No one is perfect. No caliber is perfect. Anyone that claims otherwise is a BS artist.
 
Originally Posted By: tripod3I have more spinners and runners with .223 so I use .22-250 shooting the same bullet.
I don't have to qualify my answer cause it works.

Amen!

In fact I use the Hornady SX in my 223 bolt rifles which when driven faster in a 22-250 do not make it to paper at 100 yds much of the time and get run offs with the 223’s. We are talking bang flop then runoffs.

I still use the 223, I am not intentionally pushing yardages, much of these shots are under 225 yds in fact virtually all of them, yet the results are what they are.

When I first switched to 22-250 I had a lot of problems. The bullets I was loading was responsible (rem 55 gr hp). I promptly switched to the Sierra 55 gr Game King spitzer (1365) and the problem was solved, I soon went to the Nosler 55 gr Ballistic tip and coyotes were dead in free fall.

We get in this mindset about fur and ignore the obvious. There is a fine line between saving fur and killing coyotes. They are a tough critter, way tougher than their hides are.

Best regards

Three44s
 
I switched to a 17-223 two years ago. I have not lost one coyote yet. Only 2 ran more than a couple yards. I guess western Colorado Coyotes don't know that I'm not shooting a big rifle.
That 25gr bullet is tiny, but still kills them every time. When I use a 223 now, I feel like I am throwing giant slugs at them. And it does not put them down any faster.

Coyotes are tough if you hit them somewhere other than the vitals. A 25gr .172 bullet in the chest either broadside or facing straight on puts them down instantly, the bullet hole is hard to find. The fur buyer likes the tiny hole, and I throw away fewer hides.
 
As is often cited here by ex-spurts:

Originally Posted By: Ace #1 Knowledgeable PM Coyote Guru"Everyone knows that a 223 won't kill coyotes".
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Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG300 Blackout exists and people use it. Why?
I have no idea, but the trend for short barreled big heavy slow bullets "sniper" technology is partially to blame for 223 runners.

Shot placement. Everybody now thinks they are a long range sniper with their budget milspec rifles. Ask any Army vet, they'll brag about how great a shot they were at 500 meters with ball ammo and iron sights. That's just not good enough for ethical hunting.

A lot of hunters don't have field marksmanship skills to hit a coyote in the actual vitals effectively. Runners are almost always gut shots, or clipping the rear of the lungs or liver. Argue all you want, runners are almost always due to poor shot placement.

Heavy long range bullets play a role too. The trend is heavier slower bullets with higher BCs which are likely to pass right on thru with less fragmentation/expansion then other styles.

Optics. A lot of guys are using crappy optics with flip up magnifiers, dot scopes, thermals that don't hold zero or are hard to zero, and high sighs on AR15s that create different zero's/holdovers then they're used to on deer rifles. Add in all these new technologies like BDC circles and hash marks and thermal etc and many don't practice enough with their gear to be effective in the field.

There was even a popular scope couple years back that lacks a center reticle, it just has a circle instead. This does not lead to accurate shots, sorry.

Short barrels/reduced velocity. Lots of AR15 hunters out there using 14.5" and 16" barrels with drastic velocity reduction compared to the standard 22-26" bolt action barrel of yesteryear. Even on bolt actions these days everybody wants to chop their barrels so they can add a silencer. Put the bullet where it matters and it should still work, but the reduced velocities also reduce the margin of error, a marginal shot may have been more effective if it was 300fps faster.

^^^^ What this fella said
I shoot pigs on a regular basis (21 in the last 2 weeks), and I have had fine success with 55gr soft point bullets. Now they do tend to run a bit, but not far and I'm exterminating not meat hunting. Now I have changed to a Hornady Critical Defense 73 gr, but not for the knock down power. I'm greatly concerned with pass thru and being in a cattle pasture. Too many of these folks have watched too many "Long Range" tv shows or think they can pull a "Gunny Hathcock" because they maxxed out a Visa card. Just the classes in sniper school on scope theory are mentally challenging, much less actually understanding them.
It's no different then the number of guys that buy $5000 thermals and immediately go out and shoot a half a dozen yearling steers because they won't take an hour and go out and study what different critters look like at different ranges in different terrains.
Critters running off at this day and age is about 99% operator error, and I think I'm being generous.
 
Originally Posted By: TxPigKiller Too many of these folks have watched too many "Long Range" tv shows or think they can pull a "Gunny Hathcock" because they maxxed out a Visa card.

Critters running off at this day and age is about 99% operator error, and I think I'm being generous.

Classic, gotta love it!
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Regards,
hm
 
Originally Posted By: 6724I switched to a 17-223 two years ago. I have not lost one coyote yet. Only 2 ran more than a couple yards. I guess western Colorado Coyotes don't know that I'm not shooting a big rifle.
That 25gr bullet is tiny, but still kills them every time. When I use a 223 now, I feel like I am throwing giant slugs at them. And it does not put them down any faster.

Coyotes are tough if you hit them somewhere other than the vitals. A 25gr .172 bullet in the chest either broadside or facing straight on puts them down instantly, the bullet hole is hard to find. The fur buyer likes the tiny hole, and I throw away fewer hides.

I have been using a 17 cal for years on and off. I love the little caliber. However, I don't recommend it to beginners. Too many people don't have the discipline to pass up a less than ideal shot when 17 cals need really good shot placement. I have heard ADC guys talk about the first shot might be ideal, but the second or third coyote isn't going to cooperate. That is where the bigger bullets shine.

I am just a sport hunter, and one of my favorite calling rifles was a little CZ 17 Mach IV. But I will add the 22-250 IMO is about a perfect cartridge for a calling rifle as you can get.

We used to joke about 223AI's as being cannons.
 
.223 with hornady 55 gr SP works for me. Never had a problem. I like it better than the .243 cuz usually I can see the hits and I can tolerate a shot without hearing protection. I get out the .243 and ear plugs when it is windy though. I think a bunch of people just buy the cheapest ammo they can find be it FMJ or whatever. Then they just spray and pray. A coyote seems like a big target, but once your remove the fur, the kill zone is pretty small.
 
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I think bullet choice and the velocity that it is impacting with is more important than caliber. With that said I still have no need for the 223 for shooting coyotes with the faster stuff available.
 
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Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660A coyote seems like a big target, but once your remove the fur, the kill zone is pretty small.

^^^^^X2! Used to deer hunt with an older fellow who said one day after missing a buck, "One thing about those bucks, every one's got a lot of air around them!"
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Regards,
hm
 
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In all honesty when it comes to percentages I've probably wounded more with a 22-250 than I have with a .223. I'm not talking about coyotes hit over all with the 250 because I've been shooting a .223 for a long time. But my kill rate hasn't been quite what it should be with the 22-250.


That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the cartridge itself but I was substituting more fire power to make up for less than perfect shots at times which didn't end well. Regardless of what you're shooting whether it be a .17hmr or a .243 you can't expect a gut shot coyote to go down and stay down. If you're not putting that bullet where it needs to go there's a very good chance you'll lose that coyote.

I've seen a coyote take 4 rounds of 100gr. SP's from a .243 and still need a finishing shot with a .22, one of which took one side of its head off. Anyone who thinks those animals ain't tough is sadly mistaken.
 
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Quote:Regardless of what you're shooting whether it be a .17hmr or a .243 you can't expect a gut shot coyote to go down and stay down. If you're not putting that bullet where it needs to go there's a very good chance you'll lose that coyote.


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Regards,
hm
 
It’s getting thick in here. I get the annoying trends of today showing it’s face in the predator world. 223 can cover a range of speeds. We all want to have our cake and eat it too. Wildcats that work with shorter barrels, higher speed, larger margin of error. I’m sorry it’s not practical to shoot a coyote in the eyeball every time. Shooting behind the shoulder was a habit I had to break but I’ve seen plenty of shots that shouldnt have ended with runoffs. Now I just use a 338, it’s all that works. I think we are all [beeep] artists on this forum.
 
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