Run off with the 223

A

AWS

Retired PM Staff
What's with all the "Run Offs" with the 223 that are getting written up lately?

I killed my first coyote in 20 years with a 223 this fall and it was DRT, 45gr White Box. I haven't owned one in 20 years either since the barrel went out on my 600. The only run off I had that I can remember with it was a fox I tried FMJ's on in the 1970's. I've killed quite a number of them with a 222 Rem and the only run offs I've experience is with the 12ga and 4 Buck, BB's have worked better for me.
 
I believe most of it is bad shot placement or cheap FMJ ammo. I have seen posts on other boards with people using the FMJ. I have used the 223 for the last 11 years with a Hornady 52 gr HP and have had no problems.

I am seeing more posts asking about shooting them at longer ranges too (300+ yards). Not sure why when you can call them into less than 50 yards. I realize there are times you may shoot that far but they are few and far between.
 
I agree. Taking too long of shots for NO reason, and not practicing. In addition-blaming the caliber for ones own failure including wrong bullet selection. I killed one this year at 148 yards with a .17 WSM rimfire.
 
My hunting partner is 73years old and has shot between 80-105coyotes a year for the last 15 years mostly in indiana but alot with Tony Tebbe. He exclusively shoots a Christiansen arms 24" 223 cabon AR15 and 53gr superformance factory ammo. He has a hand full of runners each year and that mostly on bad shots using thermals. I watch him shoot a pile of them with his 17 hornet and they mostly just pile up with the occasional spinner. It has really made me rethink all the money I've spent over the years avoiding the 223 and building wild cats. I contribute the fast kills to him being calm and collective behind the trigger and putting the bullet exactly where it needs to be. Even on doubles and triples he waits for the shot to present its self instead of dumping mags on them.
 
Originally Posted By: yotehunter243My hunting partner is 73years old and has shot between 80-105coyotes a year for the last 15 years mostly in indiana but alot with Tony Tebbe. He exclusively shoots a Christiansen arms 24" 223 cabon AR15 and 53gr superformance factory ammo. He has a hand full of runners each year and that mostly on bad shots using thermals. I watch him shoot a pile of them with his 17 hornet and they mostly just pile up with the occasional spinner. It has really made me rethink all the money I've spent over the years avoiding the 223 and building wild cats. I contribute the fast kills to him being calm and collective behind the trigger and putting the bullet exactly where it needs to be. Even on doubles and triples he waits for the shot to present its self instead of dumping mags on them.
I dont care what critter you are shooting, the calm and collected thought process allowing proper shot placement is everything. With that said I need to figure out a way to shoot em with 4000 fps chain saws lol. Just havent figure out what twist they require yet.
thumbup.gif
 
Last edited:
300 Blackout exists and people use it. Why?
I have no idea, but the trend for short barreled big heavy slow bullets "sniper" technology is partially to blame for 223 runners.

Shot placement. Everybody now thinks they are a long range sniper with their budget milspec rifles. Ask any Army vet, they'll brag about how great a shot they were at 500 meters with ball ammo and iron sights. That's just not good enough for ethical hunting.

A lot of hunters don't have field marksmanship skills to hit a coyote in the actual vitals effectively. Runners are almost always gut shots, or clipping the rear of the lungs or liver. Argue all you want, runners are almost always due to poor shot placement.

Heavy long range bullets play a role too. The trend is heavier slower bullets with higher BCs which are likely to pass right on thru with less fragmentation/expansion then other styles.

Optics. A lot of guys are using crappy optics with flip up magnifiers, dot scopes, thermals that don't hold zero or are hard to zero, and high sighs on AR15s that create different zero's/holdovers then they're used to on deer rifles. Add in all these new technologies like BDC circles and hash marks and thermal etc and many don't practice enough with their gear to be effective in the field.

There was even a popular scope couple years back that lacks a center reticle, it just has a circle instead. This does not lead to accurate shots, sorry.

Short barrels/reduced velocity. Lots of AR15 hunters out there using 14.5" and 16" barrels with drastic velocity reduction compared to the standard 22-26" bolt action barrel of yesteryear. Even on bolt actions these days everybody wants to chop their barrels so they can add a silencer. Put the bullet where it matters and it should still work, but the reduced velocities also reduce the margin of error, a marginal shot may have been more effective if it was 300fps faster.
 
"Coyote fever"...lol. 4000fps chainsaw? 7mm RUM and 120gr v-max ought to solve your problem. Skin em out for you on the spot!
 
I do well with the .223,that's basically all I ever shoot. The only time a coyote ever requires a second shot is one that's running straight away. It just doesn't have what it takes to reliably stop a coyote permanently on a shot like that unless you hit it in the back of the head. But it will stop them long enough to shoot them again. I normally average somewhere around 25 coyotes a season with the .223,which ain't a ton but enough that I think my opinion holds some merit....maybe?lol
 
The whole bottom line is guys shoot them like they shoot a deer and they stay off the shoulder. You've got to get in that shoulder neck area. I made that mistake for years it's just how I automatically shot them. Never lost any they just didn't turn off instantly. Coyotes just aren't a critter that I feel like I need to make it more challenging to enjoy killing them. I'll take any advantage I can get. Bring on the extra powder capacity.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG300 Blackout exists and people use it. Why?
I have no idea, but the trend for short barreled big heavy slow bullets "sniper" technology is partially to blame for 223 runners.

Shot placement. Everybody now thinks they are a long range sniper with their budget milspec rifles. Ask any Army vet, they'll brag about how great a shot they were at 500 meters with ball ammo and iron sights. That's just not good enough for ethical hunting.

A lot of hunters don't have field marksmanship skills to hit a coyote in the actual vitals effectively. Runners are almost always gut shots, or clipping the rear of the lungs or liver. Argue all you want, runners are almost always due to poor shot placement.

Heavy long range bullets play a role too. The trend is heavier slower bullets with higher BCs which are likely to pass right on thru with less fragmentation/expansion then other styles.

Optics. A lot of guys are using crappy optics with flip up magnifiers, dot scopes, thermals that don't hold zero or are hard to zero, and high sighs on AR15s that create different zero's/holdovers then they're used to on deer rifles. Add in all these new technologies like BDC circles and hash marks and thermal etc and many don't practice enough with their gear to be effective in the field.

There was even a popular scope couple years back that lacks a center reticle, it just has a circle instead. This does not lead to accurate shots, sorry.

Short barrels/reduced velocity. Lots of AR15 hunters out there using 14.5" and 16" barrels with drastic velocity reduction compared to the standard 22-26" bolt action barrel of yesteryear. Even on bolt actions these days everybody wants to chop their barrels so they can add a silencer. Put the bullet where it matters and it should still work, but the reduced velocities also reduce the margin of error, a marginal shot may have been more effective if it was 300fps faster.



I think Dirty Dog covered most of the bases right here.
 
Only one answer, shot placement. I think most of responses your seeing ar AR shooters who spray and pray. One shot, one kill...even with an AR. I'm guessing probably taking shots at running dogs as well. A 243 with a crappy shot blows yotes in half. I only had one runner with a 223. I hit it high in the back...my fault...I can admit it and not blame the caliber. [beeep] that 223! Lol! Give them all to me. Same with posters complaining about the 60 grain vmax. Every coyote I've hit in the chest head on or broadside right behind the shoulder dropped like the hammer of Thor hit it. Then you have a bunch of posts on how someone THOUGHT they hit it perfect because that's where they aimed before they pulled the trigger...and never recovered the animal after they thought they made the perfect shot. All the practice in the world won't fix COYOTE FA FA FEVER!!! Lol! As frustrating as it is, there will be bum wraps on every bullet and caliber well past when we are all gone do to the trigger pullers bad shot placements and egos get in the way so everything else gets the blame. All the real hunters and marksmen who have consistantly dropped coyotes where they Stan with 223/5.56 will tell you the same. Saying a 223 is to small for coyotes is like saying a 308 is too small for deer.

Oh, I did have a run off with BB shot last year...I missed.lol


In all seriousness my buddy did to. He shot at a coyote running away from him and peppered it's ars...twice. It got up both times yelping, dragging it's butt with a big blood trail never to be seen again. I aim for the base of the head where the neck meets it and shot placement will drop them every time I connect...or I'll put the bead on their nose with running shots along with trying to keep shots under 60 yards and they will drop every time where they stand.
 
Last edited:
Have had spinners, but that always turned out to be a hit too far back. Shoulder and chest hits puts them right down. Bullet choice is always a factor. Hornady V Max any grain or Serria Blitzking any grain will put them right on the ground. Those FMJ's are asking for a runner.

Tom
 
Yes...and no FMJs

Coyote Hunters don't go to Walmart and buy a bulk box of 150, $40 FMJ's . Those are only for practice and plinking IMO. Any expanding bullet will kill a coyote with the correct shot placement in the hands of a skilled, experienced hunter...and marksman.

You get a lot of shooters that hit a dog 8" back or farther on a run and will never admit it or know they did it and then bash the caliber or bullet because egos are bruised. It couldn't have been me...its my gun, scope, caliber, bullet...I'm perfect...just ask me.lol. They always end up getting a bigger caliber and then have FEWER runners...with bad shots.
 
Last edited:
Well all told the truth cannot be denied that bigger calibers kill better when shots are not perfect. I know for a fact that I'm not going to hit every coyote perfect but I want him to die on the spot when I don't. Give me the bigger hammer. The problem with using the bigger Hammer is you've also got to be a little more careful about where your nails end up if you miss.... you get the 6.5 Creedmoor sniper crowd shooting bullets designed to shoot through steel plates and windshields. That is a no-go in populated areas and will kill less than a 55 Vmax out of a fireball in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
I have more spinners and runners with .223 so I use .22-250 shooting the same bullet.
I don't have to qualify my answer cause it works.
 
I agree with most the above, poor marksmanship in the field and believing they had made a solid hit when in truth it was poor or even a miss. Ex I read a post not too long ago about a guy that was blaming his 3006 ammo after his deer was still standing after he supposedly put 6 rounds "right in the boiler room" lol and yes he was serious...not sure what that guys issue was, but I'd bet it was the ammo!!! Lol

For a long time I thought the sweet spot was further back than it actually is and had quite a lot of spinners with what I thought were good hits, when in truth I was hitting them too far back. I'd say things like that play into it too
 
This comes up a lot. Here is the plain and simple truth......coyote hunting is never perfect. They are tuff animals. Not all hunters skill levels and choice of shots is equal. The 223 is a capable cartridge. There are "more capable" cartridges. There are die hard 223 fans and there is nothing wrong with that.........but! Overall they produce more runners and spinners than other cartridges........they just do! I've shot lots of coyotes. I've watched thousands of videos of coyotes being shot. The majority of those that run or spin are shot with a 223. Does it mean it's a poor choice?........[beeep] no! It's a great roundbut there are many that are better and I prefer some of those.
 
Anyone who has regular spinners and/or runners with 223 or any other reasonable gun/bullet combo is a poor marksman. End of story.

Poor marksmanship includes intentionally aiming an accurate rifle at the guts and then hitting the guts exactly where you aimed (or clip the back of the lung or liver which causes rumners and spinners).
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGAnyone who has regular spinners and/or runners with 223 or any other reasonable gun/bullet combo is a poor marksman. End of story.

Must love your .223!
 
Back
Top