All you guy's that say it is not the gun but the handler, has never had it happen. It does happen, even with safe practice. Happened twice on seperate rifles, back in the 80's. Sold 3 rifles because of it. Have since bought 3 Remingtons, converted to Model 70 type on 2 and installed a Jewel on the other. I had safely turned away and pointed rifle in a safe direction and it happened, and I did not have my finger on the trigger, or touch the bolt. This is old news and Remington should have fixed it years ago, about 50 yrs. You guys that don't believe will have it happen to you, and then you can say well I know its not the guns fault, must be mine. I hope you don't kill someone in the process. Better to be safe than sorry.
Remington Under Fire Model 700
- Thread starter Tka250
- Start date
TripleDeuce660
Active member
I got a 660 .222rem. The gun was purchased by my father brand new. It was never out of the stock and has a low round count. When I was about 10 we went hunting and 2 or 3 times my dad moved the safety to the fire position and the gun discharged. My dad always thought he must have touched the trigger. Turns out after reading about the gun on the net and calling remington the gun is recalled. They will fix it for free if I ship it and replace it with the 700 trigger. The bolt also no longer locks shut after the new trigger is installed. Maybe remington should just stick to the 870.
As someone previously stated, this is old news. In fact, it first surfaced in the late 1940's or early '50's with the introduction of the model 721's and such incidents are currently being reported. Therein lies the problem IMHO.
Quote:When 700s fire by themselves, you can bet someone adjusted the trigger improperly.......
While many FRS (Reminton's own acronym for Fire on Release of Safety), are caused by improper trigger adjustment, that is not the case in all such incidents.
Somewhere around the mid '80's I purchased a new 40XC (Target rifle built (I understand by Rem. custom shop) on the 700 action and very popular with higpower rifle competitors. Great rifle, super accurate, but the very first round down the tube was an FRS and my finger was nowhere near the trigger! If the trigger was adjusted improperly, it was done at the factory. Can't blame it on improper maintenance either, as the rifle was brand new.
Many folks are quite happy with their 700's, and that is fine so long as they are aware that just because their rifle has never fired accidentally, it does not mean that it will never do so. Lint, dirt, grime etc. trapped within the trigger housing can cause the an FRS. Here is an explanation as to what can go wrong and why, leading to this particular failure.
http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf
While any mechanical device can and probably will malfunction, there are no second chances when it comes to an accidental discharge. Always practice safe gun handling and be never trust the safety.
Regards,
hm
Quote:When 700s fire by themselves, you can bet someone adjusted the trigger improperly.......
While many FRS (Reminton's own acronym for Fire on Release of Safety), are caused by improper trigger adjustment, that is not the case in all such incidents.
Somewhere around the mid '80's I purchased a new 40XC (Target rifle built (I understand by Rem. custom shop) on the 700 action and very popular with higpower rifle competitors. Great rifle, super accurate, but the very first round down the tube was an FRS and my finger was nowhere near the trigger! If the trigger was adjusted improperly, it was done at the factory. Can't blame it on improper maintenance either, as the rifle was brand new.
Many folks are quite happy with their 700's, and that is fine so long as they are aware that just because their rifle has never fired accidentally, it does not mean that it will never do so. Lint, dirt, grime etc. trapped within the trigger housing can cause the an FRS. Here is an explanation as to what can go wrong and why, leading to this particular failure.
http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf
While any mechanical device can and probably will malfunction, there are no second chances when it comes to an accidental discharge. Always practice safe gun handling and be never trust the safety.
Regards,
hm
2muchgun
New member
Originally Posted By: VAhuntrOriginally Posted By: 2muchgunThere are MILLIONS of 700s out there. If the problem was truly a design flaw, as opposed to improper adjustment/operator error, we would have heard of a WHOLE LOT more "accidents" by now, as opposed to a few isolated incidents. JMO.....
How do you feel about Mike Walker's comments concerning the issue?
Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design. That's why the whole "Remington Under Fire" thing is about 28-30 yrs late. Just another left-winger digging up some old information and trying to pass it off as "news".....
How do you feel about Mike Walker's comments concerning the issue?
Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design. That's why the whole "Remington Under Fire" thing is about 28-30 yrs late. Just another left-winger digging up some old information and trying to pass it off as "news".....
Quote: Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design.
I think this design change only affected the bolt lock function of the safety. It did nothing to address the fire on relase of the safety. It only allows you to unload the rifle without releasing the safety.
I think this design change only affected the bolt lock function of the safety. It did nothing to address the fire on relase of the safety. It only allows you to unload the rifle without releasing the safety.
Originally Posted By: hawkeye58 Quote: Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design.
I think this design change only affected the bolt lock function of the safety. It did nothing to address the fire on relase of the safety. It only allows you to unload the rifle without releasing the safety.
From the way I understand it, you are right hawkeye58. It was not till the introduction of the X-Mark Pro trigger that Remington changed the design of the connector in the trigger.
I think this design change only affected the bolt lock function of the safety. It did nothing to address the fire on relase of the safety. It only allows you to unload the rifle without releasing the safety.
From the way I understand it, you are right hawkeye58. It was not till the introduction of the X-Mark Pro trigger that Remington changed the design of the connector in the trigger.
jonbearman
New member
I will offer this,dont watch cnbc (commy news broadcasting corp) and watch your gun muzzle to avoid sensless tradegy.
tripod3
New member
Quote:I will offer this,dont watch cnbc (commy news broadcasting corp) and watch your gun muzzle to avoid sensless tradegy.
Sounds good in theory. You show me someone that handles firearms regularly that has Never Ever pointed a weapon in a compromising direction and I will introduce you to God.
Lets be honest, I have seen it over and over, even by people that make a living carrying a gun.
I think anyone that claims to never have pointed a firearm in the wrong direction is lying.
Despite this being old news, there are plenty of old guns out there with plenty of people that are unaware of the problem. The same people that may depend on the safety like the brakes on their car.
Sounds good in theory. You show me someone that handles firearms regularly that has Never Ever pointed a weapon in a compromising direction and I will introduce you to God.
Lets be honest, I have seen it over and over, even by people that make a living carrying a gun.
I think anyone that claims to never have pointed a firearm in the wrong direction is lying.
Despite this being old news, there are plenty of old guns out there with plenty of people that are unaware of the problem. The same people that may depend on the safety like the brakes on their car.
rodngun
New member
Originally Posted By: tripod3Quote:I cant wait for Remington to file on MSNBC and all their left wing ,liberal,tree hugging, lettuce eating PRO Obama top brass,,I hope Remington makes an example of MSNBC !!
File what? That's funny. Remington has known about the problem since day one and has even calculated how many will misfire. They chose to leave it and pay for the losses instead of the .15 cents to replace the spring.
Gotta love the late (on the issue) and misinformed.....This crap is so old and deals with a trigger job from 32 years ago.Like I said I hope Remington puts the screws to MSNBC !!!
I once had a Savage Saddle gun- it had a malfunction - savage knew it and continue to build them,of course the gun was 40 years old.It was later corrected,as so the 700...last comment on the subject,anybody that dont like a Remington they have-send them to me- I will pay for shipping.
File what? That's funny. Remington has known about the problem since day one and has even calculated how many will misfire. They chose to leave it and pay for the losses instead of the .15 cents to replace the spring.
Gotta love the late (on the issue) and misinformed.....This crap is so old and deals with a trigger job from 32 years ago.Like I said I hope Remington puts the screws to MSNBC !!!
I once had a Savage Saddle gun- it had a malfunction - savage knew it and continue to build them,of course the gun was 40 years old.It was later corrected,as so the 700...last comment on the subject,anybody that dont like a Remington they have-send them to me- I will pay for shipping.
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rodngun
New member
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunOriginally Posted By: VAhuntrOriginally Posted By: 2muchgunThere are MILLIONS of 700s out there. If the problem was truly a design flaw, as opposed to improper adjustment/operator error, we would have heard of a WHOLE LOT more "accidents" by now, as opposed to a few isolated incidents. JMO.....
How do you feel about Mike Walker's comments concerning the issue?
Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design. That's why the whole "Remington Under Fire" thing is about 28-30 yrs late. Just another left-winger digging up some old information and trying to pass it off as "news".....
2much ...well at least somebody else other than me knows the real story !! gotta love them tree huggin , lettuce eatin gun owners...They just kill me
How do you feel about Mike Walker's comments concerning the issue?
Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design. That's why the whole "Remington Under Fire" thing is about 28-30 yrs late. Just another left-winger digging up some old information and trying to pass it off as "news".....
2much ...well at least somebody else other than me knows the real story !! gotta love them tree huggin , lettuce eatin gun owners...They just kill me
Originally Posted By: rodngunOriginally Posted By: 2muchgunOriginally Posted By: VAhuntrOriginally Posted By: 2muchgunThere are MILLIONS of 700s out there. If the problem was truly a design flaw, as opposed to improper adjustment/operator error, we would have heard of a WHOLE LOT more "accidents" by now, as opposed to a few isolated incidents. JMO.....
How do you feel about Mike Walker's comments concerning the issue?
Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design. That's why the whole "Remington Under Fire" thing is about 28-30 yrs late. Just another left-winger digging up some old information and trying to pass it off as "news".....
2much ...well at least somebody else other than me knows the real story !! gotta love them tree huggin , lettuce eatin gun owners...They just kill me
Far from a tree hugger and I much prefer steak and pork myself.
I would be shocked if Remington "puts the screws" to anyone concerning this.
If you remember, CBS aired a similar story in 2001 concerning the 700. Did Remington "put the screws" to CBS?
For the posters here that claim it does not happen or it only happens to improperly adjusted/maintained triggers, then I have a question. What do you say to the two forum members here who have had this happen to them on new Remington 700's? Are you flat out calling them liars?
How do you feel about Mike Walker's comments concerning the issue?
Mike walker was speaking of triggers made before 1980 or 1982 or somethingh like that. All the triggers made since then are of different design. That's why the whole "Remington Under Fire" thing is about 28-30 yrs late. Just another left-winger digging up some old information and trying to pass it off as "news".....
2much ...well at least somebody else other than me knows the real story !! gotta love them tree huggin , lettuce eatin gun owners...They just kill me
Far from a tree hugger and I much prefer steak and pork myself.
If you remember, CBS aired a similar story in 2001 concerning the 700. Did Remington "put the screws" to CBS?
For the posters here that claim it does not happen or it only happens to improperly adjusted/maintained triggers, then I have a question. What do you say to the two forum members here who have had this happen to them on new Remington 700's? Are you flat out calling them liars?
rodngun
New member
Va. So the story goes.This article is not new ..really old ,furthermore the whole thing is not being told-
How many people new that after the so called "new" story surfaced that it was found later that the 2 executives that "pushed" the story - turned out BOTH of them owned Remington 700's....
I'm not about to call anyone on the board a liar-Mainly becuz I dont know what any individual did to the gun or trigger prior to the problem.Nor have I had the gun in my hand- so yes- someone may have had a problem with a weapon-but I assure you the whole story is not being told.
I believe Remington addressed the problem and made FOOLS out of MSNBC and I hope the make an example out of the Obama lovin,tree hugging wanna be gun xperts
Edit : for GP
How many people new that after the so called "new" story surfaced that it was found later that the 2 executives that "pushed" the story - turned out BOTH of them owned Remington 700's....
I'm not about to call anyone on the board a liar-Mainly becuz I dont know what any individual did to the gun or trigger prior to the problem.Nor have I had the gun in my hand- so yes- someone may have had a problem with a weapon-but I assure you the whole story is not being told.
I believe Remington addressed the problem and made FOOLS out of MSNBC and I hope the make an example out of the Obama lovin,tree hugging wanna be gun xperts
Edit : for GP
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As has been previously stated, this is far from being a new problem. The first such incident that I became aware of was a model 721 Remington brought into the gunsmith shop where I worked part time while attending high school and college in the 1950’s.
While I do not pretend to be an expert in the field of firearms/trigger design, I have hunted all my life and do have considerable experience as a rifle/pistol instructor, shot high power and small bore rifle competition for over 25 years, both in the military and as a civilian, and served as RSO at our club’s monthly highpower rifle matches for 20 years. In the capacity of RSO, I have witnessed every violation of firearms safe handling that you can imagine and many that you cannot, often by very experienced shooters. If such breaches of safe gun handling occur under the very strict safety measures in place at all organized qualification and competitions, I can assure you many more take place in the field.
Again, as has been stated, it is incumbent upon us all, as shooters, to always maintain proper muzzle control when handling a firearm. Unfortunately, there is not one among us who has handled firearms for any length of time that can claim that he/she has never pointed a firearm in an unsafe direction. Anyone who makes the claim that they have not done so should view their gun handling with a bit more critical eye.
As has been stated, adjusting trigger pull too light can indeed cause the "fire on release of safety (FRS is Remington's own acronym for this occurrence). Other contributing factors can be grime accumulating in the mechanism due to improper care when cleaning the rifle.
The problem, according to many experts who have studied the issue, results from the floating connector, which can fail to reset for any number of reasons. For an excellent description of the trigger and how it can fail, check out http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf
Quote:someone may have had a problem with a weapon-but I assure you the whole story is not being told.
Any rate, in the interest of "telling the whole story", the rifle I mentioned previously was a 40XC target rifle based on the 700 action which I understand is built in Remington's custom shop. The trigger had never been adjusted after it left the factory and this was the very first shot through the rifle other than any test shots fired at the factory. The rifle had not been cleaned, so wear and improper maintenace were not an issue. I was planningg to zero the rifle from the prone position, loaded the rifle and put it on safe. Upon squeezing the trigger, I discovered the safety was on and slipped it off (my hand was nowhere near the trigger) resulting in the very first round downrange being an FRS!
This particular rifle was one of the series that had the bolt lock feature (locks bolt handle in the closed position when safety engaged), thus, once rifle is loaded and put on safe, it is impossible to unload without releasing the safety (a terrible idea, in my humble opinion). Apparently Remington now agrees, as their recent recall includes removal of that feature.
My intent is not to bash Remington, they make fine shooting rifles. The 40XC was among the most accurate target rifles I ever owned; you just could not trust the safety. My intent is to inform those who use this rifle of the potential for that rifle to go off when safety is released. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Stay safe, and watch those muzzles.
Regards,
hm
While I do not pretend to be an expert in the field of firearms/trigger design, I have hunted all my life and do have considerable experience as a rifle/pistol instructor, shot high power and small bore rifle competition for over 25 years, both in the military and as a civilian, and served as RSO at our club’s monthly highpower rifle matches for 20 years. In the capacity of RSO, I have witnessed every violation of firearms safe handling that you can imagine and many that you cannot, often by very experienced shooters. If such breaches of safe gun handling occur under the very strict safety measures in place at all organized qualification and competitions, I can assure you many more take place in the field.
Again, as has been stated, it is incumbent upon us all, as shooters, to always maintain proper muzzle control when handling a firearm. Unfortunately, there is not one among us who has handled firearms for any length of time that can claim that he/she has never pointed a firearm in an unsafe direction. Anyone who makes the claim that they have not done so should view their gun handling with a bit more critical eye.
As has been stated, adjusting trigger pull too light can indeed cause the "fire on release of safety (FRS is Remington's own acronym for this occurrence). Other contributing factors can be grime accumulating in the mechanism due to improper care when cleaning the rifle.
The problem, according to many experts who have studied the issue, results from the floating connector, which can fail to reset for any number of reasons. For an excellent description of the trigger and how it can fail, check out http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf
Quote:someone may have had a problem with a weapon-but I assure you the whole story is not being told.
Any rate, in the interest of "telling the whole story", the rifle I mentioned previously was a 40XC target rifle based on the 700 action which I understand is built in Remington's custom shop. The trigger had never been adjusted after it left the factory and this was the very first shot through the rifle other than any test shots fired at the factory. The rifle had not been cleaned, so wear and improper maintenace were not an issue. I was planningg to zero the rifle from the prone position, loaded the rifle and put it on safe. Upon squeezing the trigger, I discovered the safety was on and slipped it off (my hand was nowhere near the trigger) resulting in the very first round downrange being an FRS!
This particular rifle was one of the series that had the bolt lock feature (locks bolt handle in the closed position when safety engaged), thus, once rifle is loaded and put on safe, it is impossible to unload without releasing the safety (a terrible idea, in my humble opinion). Apparently Remington now agrees, as their recent recall includes removal of that feature.
My intent is not to bash Remington, they make fine shooting rifles. The 40XC was among the most accurate target rifles I ever owned; you just could not trust the safety. My intent is to inform those who use this rifle of the potential for that rifle to go off when safety is released. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Stay safe, and watch those muzzles.
Regards,
hm
Originally Posted By: rodngunVa. So the story goes.This article is not new ..really old ,furthermore the whole thing is not being told-
How many people new that after the so called "new" story surfaced that it was found later that the 2 executives that "pushed" the story - turned out BOTH of them owned Remington 700's....
I'm not about to call anyone on the board a liar-Mainly becuz I dont know what any individual did to the gun or trigger prior to the problem.Nor have I had the gun in my hand- so yes- someone may have had a problem with a weapon-but I assure you the whole story is not being told.
I believe Remington addressed the problem and made FOOLS out of MSNBC and I hope the make an example out of the Obama lovin,tree hugging wanna be gun xperts
Edit : for GP
Hmmm, had not heard that about the executives before. I do agree that there are two sides to every story and I'm sure in some cases at least, the whole story was not told, from either side.
How many people new that after the so called "new" story surfaced that it was found later that the 2 executives that "pushed" the story - turned out BOTH of them owned Remington 700's....
I'm not about to call anyone on the board a liar-Mainly becuz I dont know what any individual did to the gun or trigger prior to the problem.Nor have I had the gun in my hand- so yes- someone may have had a problem with a weapon-but I assure you the whole story is not being told.
I believe Remington addressed the problem and made FOOLS out of MSNBC and I hope the make an example out of the Obama lovin,tree hugging wanna be gun xperts
Edit : for GP
Hmmm, had not heard that about the executives before. I do agree that there are two sides to every story and I'm sure in some cases at least, the whole story was not told, from either side.
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tripod3
New member
Quote:How many people new that after the so called "new" story surfaced that it was found later that the 2 executives that "pushed" the story - turned out BOTH of them owned Remington 700's....
That's laughable. Is it a crime to own one? Maybe they practice safe sex and just want the company to make it safer for everyone.
How many unsafe guns do you think there are in peoples collection across the country. I have not seen a law that says you can't complain about it. How many scope complaints do you see here about scopes. Should we then deny those people ownership of scopes?
It is my understanding that the same trigger group was installed until 2002 and then with modification after that but still could
fire wrong.
I purchased a new Rem 700 and heard of the problem, I contacted Remington. They said I could (at my expense) take it to the Rem authorized repair shop locally to have it checked. The gunsmith said it checked out fine.
First trip to the range it fired upon closing the bolt. Luckily downrange. I sold it.
That's laughable. Is it a crime to own one? Maybe they practice safe sex and just want the company to make it safer for everyone.
How many unsafe guns do you think there are in peoples collection across the country. I have not seen a law that says you can't complain about it. How many scope complaints do you see here about scopes. Should we then deny those people ownership of scopes?
It is my understanding that the same trigger group was installed until 2002 and then with modification after that but still could
fire wrong.
I purchased a new Rem 700 and heard of the problem, I contacted Remington. They said I could (at my expense) take it to the Rem authorized repair shop locally to have it checked. The gunsmith said it checked out fine.
First trip to the range it fired upon closing the bolt. Luckily downrange. I sold it.
2muchgun
New member
This whole thing is a crock of poop if you ask me. The antis accomplished what they wanted though. They got everyone talking and some even worrying, others not buying.
Jack Belk is a first rate POS who is FOS. He makes all his money off of testifying against firearms companies.
I really love the part when he was on trial and they asked him if he was able to replicate a misfire and he said "No."
Some firearms expert. I can replicate a misfire all day long with a 700 trigger. All you have to do is misproperly adjust it. I guess maybe they were talking about if he could do it with a specific firearm that the trial involved.
Here is Remington's rebuttal:
http://remington700.tv/#/home
Notice they cut the film on CNBC and only showed you the parts they want to concerning Belk. Left a whole lot of other stuff out. Funny how TV works that way. Michael Moore, another POS, has mastered it.
I'll let everyone form their own opinions. I've simply too much real world experience with 700 triggers to let some left wing network, a bunch of trial lawyers, and a paid-off "expert" discredit what I have learned first hand through years of tinkering with 700s and their triggers.
There are a lot of reasons why the 700 is the most popular bolt action rifle of all time. With hunters, with the police, and with the military. Unsafe triggers that fire all by themselves isn't one of those reasons.
BTW, the Marines just placed an order for 3000 more.....
Jack Belk is a first rate POS who is FOS. He makes all his money off of testifying against firearms companies.
I really love the part when he was on trial and they asked him if he was able to replicate a misfire and he said "No."
Some firearms expert. I can replicate a misfire all day long with a 700 trigger. All you have to do is misproperly adjust it. I guess maybe they were talking about if he could do it with a specific firearm that the trial involved.
Here is Remington's rebuttal:
http://remington700.tv/#/home
Notice they cut the film on CNBC and only showed you the parts they want to concerning Belk. Left a whole lot of other stuff out. Funny how TV works that way. Michael Moore, another POS, has mastered it.
I'll let everyone form their own opinions. I've simply too much real world experience with 700 triggers to let some left wing network, a bunch of trial lawyers, and a paid-off "expert" discredit what I have learned first hand through years of tinkering with 700s and their triggers.
There are a lot of reasons why the 700 is the most popular bolt action rifle of all time. With hunters, with the police, and with the military. Unsafe triggers that fire all by themselves isn't one of those reasons.
BTW, the Marines just placed an order for 3000 more.....