Night vision info for everyone!

I

Iownthenight

New member
I can answer any of the night vision questions you might have, as I have owned almost every night vision device out there to date.

I do alot of NV shooting, around 3 days(nights!) per week, every week.

I also hunt varmints, etc. at night as well, but have much less experience with the art of calling than I do with NV.

I have a ton of pictures that I can send of targets, NV scopes/goggles/weapon sights, nightime pictures of animals, etc. to anyone interested.

My current setup is two-fold. For ranges out to 75 yards or so, I use an AN/PVS-14 behind the LE/Mil version of the EOTech 552, which has numerous NV settings for brightness. The 14 locks down on a GG&G Tall QD mount.
The rifle is a .223 Young Manufacturing M4 with A3 flattop, 16" fluted M4 style barrel and ARMS SIR system. I use the largest Surefire with turbo head and mil IR flip-up/flip-down filter 850nm. I shoot 69gr. Sierra BTHP's at 3050 fps.

For ranges from 75 yards out to about 400 yards, I use the AN/PVS-14 in a Monoloc on a .223 Bushmaster V-Match 20" A3 upper, or on a Remington 700PSS or Savage 110 tactical (if .308 is required) On the 20" Bushmaster I shoot 55gr. Hornady V-Max at 3240 fps. On the .308 guns, I use Hornady's TAP ammo, can remember the gr. or fps tight now.

I have dropped coyotes at 400+ yards on a slightly moonlit night with clear skies.

I have taken many a racoon (and a single bobcat) at 100-130 yards on a very cloudy night, with no stars, no moon, and freezing rain.

I have watched many deer as they bed down for the night from 75-400 yards away.

Here is a partial list of what I have owned/own:

Multiple Russian units (cheetah, DNseries, Ospreys, ATN, etc.
Multiple AN/PVS-2's
AN/TVS-2B
Multiple M4 US Mil IR tanker binoculars
Swill Mil Jumelle 72's (two of them)
Numerous US Mil Tank periscopes - Gen I & II
Multiple AN/PVS-4's - Gen II
Multiple AN/PVS-4's - Gen III
AN/PVS-5A/B/C's
US Mil Aquila 4X - Gen II and Gen III
AN/PVS-7A - Gen III/Omni III
AN/PVS-7B - Gen III/Omni IV
AN/PVS-7D - Gen III/Omni V
Raptor - 6X Gen III/Omni IV
NQ/PVS-14 - Gen III/Omni V

If I can answer anyone's questions on NV, please let me know!

Remember, there are plenty of very good beginners units out there that can be used very successfully to take game at night, provided you understand the limitations/advantages of each Generation of NV devices. I have taken game with everything from Gen 0 to Gen III devices, and everything in between.

I enjoy the night vision hobby, and varmint hunting, so if I can help someone with their questions, please let me know.
 
Good to have you here night owner. We have a lot of guys here who can't use a spotlight (legally). I look forward to seeing some of the responses. Randy
 
I'm one of those poor slobs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Here's what I need. I need night vision that will allow me to spot a critter in the open at 100 yard over snow with a partial moon. I don't have to be able to identify it until it's much closer. I can't afford gen III and would have to scrimp for Gen II.

My question below about digital night vision is still on my mind. I wonder if this product (aurora digital night vision) would fit that bill for me. I plan to use thenight vision to spot them coming to the call and then shotgun them when they get close enough. What do you think? (By the time the get that close, I should be able to pick them up with the naked eye.)

Thanks in advance.

Randy

PS, I'd love to see some of those pictures. Could you email them to me at rbuker@midwestinfo.com?
 
Thanks for the nice welcome from Randy and RBuker! I hope to meet some neat varmint hunters and learn alot about calling on this forum.

I would like to address RBuker's questions as best as I can, but I need some additional information.

1) Where do you typically hunt, is it way out in the boonies, or is there still some "sky glow" from a close city limits, etc.? This may sound silly, but sky glow has alot to do with how well you can see. If you are 60 miles from town, on a cloudy night, no moon, no stars, etc
then it is VERY dark as there is no ambient light coming from the sky OR the sly glow (from distand city lights). In these conditions, even the best Gen III devices are going to have drastic limitations as to what they will be able to resolve. This is due to the fact that there has to be SOME ambient light either from the sky or other sources in order for the image tube to be able to amplify it. No light, nothing to amplify. The tube in a NV unit sees light in the IR or infrared spectrum (around 830-920nm or so), far past what the human eye can see. IR is given off by the moon, stars, city glow, about any light source to some degree. Even a current mil issue gen III device is worthless and no image can be seen if you lock yourself in a closet with zero light!

When these conditions occur, you can turn the tables on mother nature by introducing an IR illuminator into the picture. Most current Mil spec goggles, monoculars (PVS-7 series, PVS-14, etc.)have an IR source built in, for reading maps, doing tasks, etc. in extremely low(or no)light conditions. A simple 2 million candlepower handheld spotlight with and IR filter can turn these darkest conditions into daylight, and light up the eyes of anything within 200+ yards.
In summary, no matter what Gen unit you have, a good spotlight with an IR filter is going to be very nice to have, and will make a big difference on night that have unfavorable conditions.

2) Snow is a wonderful thing, especially when it comes to night vision (and especially good for older generation night vision devices!) And with clear skies and a little moon, it is even better. Snow covered ground tends to reflect the starlight and moonlight very well. The one exception to this is scattered snow/dirt patches.
This makes it hard to pick out the varmint from the dark spots where the snow has melted, especially with gen I devices.

You can get much more mileage out of a lower Gen unit (Gen I) if you have an IR illuminator. The downside is that you will have to look thru the scope while running the light! With a buddy, this becomes much easier to handle. A gen 0 scope requires IR light in order to function, they cannot function without it, period. But they do have better resolution than a Gen I scope does, even though they have no ability to "see" in darkeness (like a Gen I-III has).

Digital night vision is a whole different animal completely. It is a CCD camera with the capability to see in the IR spectrum range. There is no image tube, etc. This works well out to about 50 yards or so, but staring at a tiny 2"-4" LCD screen will make you go mad! There just isn' enough resolution in the tiny screen in order to see clearly. And the IR LED's are a joke. The best IR spotlights use incandescent bulbs, old fashioned in the LED age, but heads above LED's in performance.
For hunting, they would be my last choice, even behind a Gen 0 scope. You can achieve the same thing by using your home video camera, if you have the "Nighshot" feature...same thing.

Gen 0 scopes are very hard to find, so they are probably out of the question, and good ones are really hard to find.

So what you are left with is the three "current" Generations. Gen I, Gen II/Gen II+, and Gen III.

Now to clear up something as well. The Russian products are fun to play with, but not really very practical from a performance standpoint.
They just don't stack up against the US product, in any way, shape, or form. I am sure more than a few wary NV customers have been left with a bad taste in their mounth when they got their first impression from a Russian scope! They just simply do not perform, no matter the Gen or the tube.

Now, there are units with Russian tubes and Russian housings, Russian tubes and Far East housings, and there are units with US tubes and Russian/Far East housings. Most of these latter scopes are from makers like ATN, Osprey, Newcom, Dedal, etc. Most are Gen I scopes with Russian tubes and Far east housings. These are fine for short range plinking, but are really not up to par in the performance area.

So take my advice, buy something that has been proven to perform. This means buy US mil whenever possible. It is built better, stronger (and bigger sometimes, not necessarily the best trait, but oh well) and just plain works.

The best Gen I scope ever made that was actually practical was the Canadian AN/PVS-502. It was a US Gen I 3-stage tube and housing made by VARO in Texas. They are sort of hard to find, but are on Ebay from time to time. They run about $500-$600 for a nice used unit. They had a nice adjustable gain tube, and also and adjustable brightness reticle. And they had the same windage/elevation controls as the PVS-4 which are the nicest turrets out there. The only downside is that parts are very scarce, so when they break you have an expensive paperweight. But they typically don't break very easily and you can get a lifetime of use out of a used unit.
Groups are around 1"-2" at l00 yards. All in all, the nicest Gen I scope you can buy for $500-$600.

If you cannot find the AN/PVS-502, then you can try the AN/PVS-2. The image is very close to the 502, but the other features are lacking. Windage and elevation are built into the base, which is not the greatest idea. The tube gain is not adjustable, and the reticle is non-lit.
But the image is very good for a Gen I unit and parts are plentiful. They mount reliably only to a carry handle AR-15 or an M-14/M1A1, the Elcan mount is worthless on this heavy and large a scope. The Elcan is made for a sub-1 lb. scope, not a 7 lb. beast! But you can get 3" groups at 100 yards from the PVS-2 when mounted properly on an AR-15. The goo news is that the price on these is very low, around $250-$450 depending on what kind of deal you get. You MUST have the complete mount (both pieces) in order to mount these on a rifle, and they are big and awkward when mounted.

In the Gen II/Gen II+ arena, the PVS-4 is hands down the winner. You can get a nice used unit for about $900-$1200 (two years ago they were $1800-$2600!) all day long. Parts are plentiful, and they shoot light out. You will not see much resolution gain (the "graininess" of the image) going from Gen I to Gen II, but they perform much better the darker it gets, which is the advantage.

This might be a good time to talk about the large variety of commercial scopes on the market that use US made Gen II tubes. These are the commercial scopes by US Night Vision, Stano, Morovision, etc. There are advantages and disadvantages to these commercial scopes. Nothing against any of these companies, as I know some of them personally. The advantages are that the units come with a warranty (a very nice thing) and the commercial tubes are usually good performers, even though they are typically spotty (little black dots, annoying but don't affect the performance of the scope). They are also lighter (not necessarily a good thing..)than their military counterparts. The disadvantage is that the mounts, housings, and general build quality of these run from poor to basically average. they do not have the same waterproofness, optics, or reticle adjustments as a mil scope has. Mounts are not as strong as the mil mount, which of course are overbuilt and extemely rugged!
But most of them offer a money back guarantee, so that is nice to have as well. Also, they have parallax problems due to the reticle being prijected behind the image tube, instead of in front of it.

In Gen III scopes, you have much more to choose from. You can go monocular with weapons mount (ala the PVS-14), binocular style (ala the PVS-7 series of goggles), aviator dual tube style (ANVIS, PVS-5C, etc), or dedicated weapons scopes (Raptor, etc.) Prices start around $1.6K and go up to over $6K, depending on model.

For you I would recommend that you save you money and start with a used Gen II PVS-4. This will give you the best bang for your buck, and will perform without needing an IR spotlight out to 150 yards on all but the darkest nights. I can shoot 1" groups all night long off a bench rest with all of my PVS-4's. Parts are dirt cheap, the scope is fully adjustable, has the best optics of ANY NV scope ever built, period, and is rugged, reliable, and easy to use well.
With the addition of an inexpensive IR spotlight and a buddy, you can shoot varmints from dusk to dawn, day after day.

$900-$1200 sounds like alot, but think of it in terms of rifles. I own about a dozen or so rifles, and I would gladly trade two $500 Savage rifles for the ability to shoot my other 10 rifles at night. There is NO experience quite like reaching out and touching something in pure darkness with extreme accurateness!! I would rather shoot at night than in the daytime now.

Let me know if I can help, or if I did not answer your questions sufficiently (I tend to ramble on...)

Jason
 
Jason,

Very impressive reading. The bottom line is that I have a LOT more research to do. The nice part is that you have likely cut down on my research time a great deal. I sure appreciate your answers. I was kind of hopeing that the digital night vision would be the way to go. From what the ads say, it would be good for my purposes out to about a hundred yards. It doesn't sound like that's the case.

I'm sure I'll have more questions for you as we go. I'll post them here because I'm guessing your expertise can help others as well.

Again, thank you for spending so much time going into such detail.

Randy
 
No problem, I enjoy the hobby and don't mind a bit. I hope to learn some valuable tips from all of you on the art of calling, as I am like a newborn when it comes that!

Send any questions my way and I will do my best to respond.

thanks
Jason Walker
 
I have had the old 2nd gen,russian, also have the one front eyed,observation binoc the russians used very nice piece for observation, night vision for many years long before the manufactures even thought about selling to the public, it works for me fine, although I feel the need for improvement!!But still waitng for the price drop on the 3rd Gen, USA stuff!!

I have done some basic research into the now beat the pants off night vison, thermal scopes, without a doubt the best way to go for hunting!!

However the price and availability of these is like buying night vision 25 years ago.

I'm interested to know what your thoughts and research say's about this new toy the military has most of the access to now?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
IOWNTHENIGHT, I have a u s night vision 443 gen 3 weapon sight, and am happy with it. However, your reference to the need for a IR light is very true. A person can't see into the shadows from an open field with NV but I would like to. What should I use? I'm looking for something lightweight.
 
Welcome, Jason, I see you are a "cross poster", too, like me! Good summary on NV use for predators. I've been getting into the same with a Gen 3 NAIT monocle, and recently picked up a used Python on eBay, made by the same folks. It might not run with your PVS 14 setup, but it is still pretty good. One thing I found is that with any NV, your field of view is limited, so you really need to pay attention to your setup, and having a buddy who is also NV equipped will help a lot by doubling the area you can watch at any moment. Randy, you can make a filter for a mini Mag kike that, but it's range is limited. There are a couple of miniMag sized IR illuminators made that yield much better performance- the ones that have a focus-able lens are my preference. I have a Russian made one that I really like, from Nightvisionweb.com, and one by ITT that US Night Vision carries. The USNV has a lower visible "signature", but the Russian unit lights up the world out to 250 yards, and is only 1 1/4" X 3 1/2" in size.
 
Sorry it took so long to answer, I was away during last Friday and all weekend long.

To answer SR1’s questions:

Nice to hear you also enjoy the night shooting sports! I sure wish there were more of us around, as I would like to start a competitive shooting league just for night vision, kind of like USPSA/IPSC (which I compete in), but with a rifle course at night.

The 443 is a very nice Gen III scope, a much better scope than the 441 was.
As far as a nice, light weight IR illuminator, have you tried an IR filter over one of the many million+ candle power rechargeable spotlights? These seem to give the best performance vs. weight. They can accurately pinpoint anything out to about 150-200 yards. Send some pics thru your 443 if you take any!

For a smaller package, I get pretty good illumination out of the large Surefire tactical light (with Turbo head) and their IR filter. It is good out to about 75 yards, after that performance is pretty dismal.

The best IR light I have ever used was a 6” very light weight incandescent bulb spotlight from the Swiss Jumelle Gen 0 binocs. I could light up raccoons at 200 yrds, no problem!
But it requires a battery pack, external 6V and it was awkward. The real bonus was that is was very powerful (with ZERO visible light, not even the faintest red glow) and was mounted directly above the binoculars and was adjustable for both windage and elevation. So no matter where you pointed the binocular, the spotlight beam was right on your view. It also had both momentary on and always on settings for the light.

The LED IR lights are worthless for anything except lighting up small rooms, reading maps, etc. They have no range other than about 15-20 feet.

You can also use a Corsak IR laser, with adjustable beam and intensity. It will illuminate small areas at 100+ yards, and it looks like a very small red dot sight, very light weight.

To answer Mr. Whiting’s questions on Thermal imagers:

They are a very neat tools! I have used the Raytheon thermal weapons site before, and it is very neat! Smoke, fog, etc. does not hinder the image, etc. But in my opinion the resolution (when compared to a Gen III scope) was not as good. You could identify pockets, some facial features, etc. but the farther away you moved, the more “hot blob” type of image you received. And the scope was very large and somewhat cumbersome to use on top of the EMRA rifle it was mounted to. I think with the new technology you will see some drastic size and weight reductions in the future. In my opinion, NV is still a requirement, even with the advent of the thermal devices. The NV still shows much better detail of the ground cover, etc. so if you are walking around, you definitely still need the traditional NV unit! What was really neat was how long the thermal signature stayed around. For example, I could walk down to the 100 yard target, place the palm of my hand on the target for 10-15 second, then take my time walking back to the bench, shoulder the weapon, turn on the unit, and still see my palm print “glowing” hot at 100 yards long enough to shoot 10 rounds thru the center of it! Really neat device!

Kytimberman:

Glad to meet a fellow NV shooter! I am sure you will agree that there is nothing quite being able to send a round downrange in the dead of night accurately!

You are completely right on the filed of view point. It definitely helps to have a buddy spotting (especially if you are calling and shooting) so that you can concentrate on what you are doing. The 1x setups give the best field of view for sure, and you can throw on the 3x lens if you want to take a closer look at something quickly.

The dedicated weapons scopes (3x-6X) offer a much more limited field of view, and are much harder to use when scanning terrain for movement. But they are very good at sending the rounds downrange when the target is acquired, much better than using an IR laser and a monocular or goggle combo, especially when accurate is paramount.

Good luck with your unit, and send some pictures if you have some! I have pics I can send to you as well.
 
By the way, for anyone who wants to try this, I have heard that you can use welding glass as an IR filter. Supposedly you can buy welding glass (the dark glass that you look thru on a traditional welding helmet), cut it to fit your light of choice, and it will provide a nice IR beam as well.

I have not tried this, but with todays IR filter prices (especially for a nice, thick quality glass filter) it might be worth a shot!
 
Any experience or thought on the American Technologies ARIES MK440 2nd Generation +? I had one of the PVS-4s that did not accept the lithium batery, just AAs. It had some issues with the battery door and I moved it shortly after I bought it.

Or, is there a better NVWS for less than $800 that is redily available?

Thanks.
 
This question is off the subject of the intent of the post but I see you shoot the 69 grain BTHP. Would that be the Match King? If so, how does it do for dispatching coyotes?
Thanks, Mike
 
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