Is this hunting ??????????

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Boy, this is comparable to the "shooting 'yotes in the spring" argument.

This is a no win argument. Sure, dog hunting is older that all of us put together. When I was a kid we would tree a coon once in a while. Racoons were pests where we lived. When we treed one, we would climb the tree to jump him out and then it was between him and the dogs. So I'm not offended by dog hunting.

Did I like the videos? No. But this argument will come back to us from the antis. We need to be cautious of how we supply them ammo. It's a free ride for them when we go after each other on such an argument.

Personally, I think the videos should have been culled before they hit the board. We don't allow overly graphic pictures, why leave the door open on video?

On top of that, those were some of the worst videos I've ever seen. The people who posted them didn't display much pride if they were proud of them. They should have used some judgement and refrained from displaying such poor video that so graphically portrayed the violence of the kill.

It would suit me if we just deleted this entire thread. We'd better off without it.

My $.02 worth. (probably overvalued)

Pat
 
Easy there Wishin these are everyones opinions, and we all now what they say about opinions. In my opinion just because it is legal that don't make it ethical. Two different hounds there.

Nothing wrong with videoing your hunt. I got quite a few hunting video and watch it on outdoor channel all the time. To be honest I haven't even watched the video in question. I understand what is about, how graphic it is doesn't make a difference. I just don't consider it hunting. It would be no different if I gave my son my gun and told him to go kill a deer and I will come drag it out then claim I was hunting. I would have brought nothing to his sucess I just retreive the meat. I f you are so passionate about this just explain why you think it is hunting and what you enjoy about it. You may can change my mind, but it takes facts and reasons to do that not rethoric and complaints.
 
The people in the videos never claim to be hunting. They never say they are proud. They never claim a sense of accomplishment. Why do some of you assume they have these feelings or feel as if they are hunting.
 
I am speaking about coursing in general Weasel not the video, sorry I should have clarified that. Thanks for catching it.
 
Oregon lost the right to manage it's bears and large cat's by the use of hounds or baiting, Montana and Idaho had wolves shoved on them as well as the neighboring states and a lot of hunters were instrumental in getting these laws passed because they felt that this type of hunting wasn't for them and so it stands that it must be bad. The running of game with hounds predates the firearm by thousands of years and as far as the anti's using this type of hunting against hunters in general, I am not as worried about that as having fellow hunters joining the anti's to get legal types of hunting banned because they don't understand it, or feel that because they wouldn't engage in it, it must be wrong. Get off your soap boxes, concentrate on illegal poaching or other illegal activity and leave others their sport. What the anti's really love is to see sportsmen's groups attacking each other.
 
Tarry,
The comparison was aimed more towards the comment that those who use hounds to bay cats,coons and even run coyotes are not hunters.

I see no difference between using a pointer to "point" a bird, the shooter walking up, giving the command to flush and then shooting the bird, and a guy using hounds to tree a lion/coon or whatever else they are hunting, then shooting them out of the tree. To say that the Houndsman is not an active participant is IMO not giving any credit to the person controlling his dogs.

You did make the comment that when you were coon hunting all you did was follow the dogs, and that was in your opinion not hunting, and thats fine.

As a bird hunter you follow your dog, he is the one finding the birds. You shoot em.
Personally, I feel whether the target is moving or not is of no consequence. And to be honest for most avid wingshooters, shooting off a pointer is not all that difficult in most situations. (though Ive been known to use more than my fair share of shells on occasion.) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

In the case of the vid, the dogs found them, the fellas in the vid have to make the choice to let the dogs kill it or to kill it themselves. If they had shot the coyote would it then have been hunting, since they had the skill to kill a moving target?

I can see your point, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of "active participation" aspect of it. I hope this made sense .

Dave
 
Alright, Kal52 for President! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tarry, If you were/was a houndsman. Then you would understand. I think you skip read my posts, LOL!

OK, let me try this.

1-coyote = more than one dog /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif.
Hound hunting is about the hounds.
Hound hunting is about family & friends.
Hound hunting...legal.

Hounds...good.
Coyotes...bad /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
The objectionable difference between bird hunting and what the video showed is that when the dog flushes the bird it is shot dead quickly and humanely. It is not ripped apart slowly over 2 or 3 minutes and made to suffer as was the coyote by the dogs.


The fact that hounding was used thousands of years ago is irrelevant and has no bearing on whether something is ethical or moral. Lots of barbaric things were done over the course of history.
 
as i said support your fellow hunters just becouse it is not your cup of tea do not bash them. it is a way of life.they are a dying breed so insted of bashing them support them.if they break the law turn them in.as far as posting video/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
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It is not ripped apart slowly over 2 or 3 minutes and made to suffer as was the coyote by the dogs.



2 or 3 minutes? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif The first video is 1 minute, 29 seconds long. The second video is 1 minute, 20 seconds long. The third video is 1 minute long. Where is the "ripped apart slowly over 2 or 3 minutes" portion at? Just like the animal rights fanatics to exaggerate, speculate and down right lie to try and make a point. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
I am just going to throw this out there....

If you hunt with any type of projectile weapon (i.e. Rifle, Bow, Sling shot, Rocket Launcher) than you are not a real hunter. Tarzan would turn over in his grave if he knew that we were predator hunting with anything more than a knife carved out of rock (or bone) and a loin cloth.
This whole site should be ashamed of themselves... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
HAHA 2 or 3 minutes vs 1 minute and 29 seconds .... not reaaly much of a difference in the context in which I said it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif By any reasonable persons statndards, 1 minute and 29 seconds is not a quick, clean, humane kill. I quess when you can't argue substance .... you argue samantics and quote things out of context. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
The times I posted were the lengths of the ENTIRE video. THE ENTIRE VIDEO! No where does it show a coyote being "ripped apart slowly over 2 or 3 minutes".
 
Cmon guys! Lighten up! We are all sportsmen here. Just because you dont agree with it, doesnt mean you have to criticize those who do it! I mean, I dont agree with people hunting, but if you want to do it, I will support you as a hunter... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Actually Kirby I read it competely and if you notice I agree with you on most all of it. If I did not mention a part of it that was probably because we agreed on it there was no value to addressing it. If you will look closely you will see I use to chase with dogs so I do understand the appeal of the hounds.

I'll address it back in the same way you did and maybe it will make sense.

1 coyote= more than one dog. No 1 and 1 are equal no matter how you slice it. But if you are trying to say it isn't a fair fight I agree, but neither is 5 or 6 dogs and 1 coyote. It all comes down to you realize what you are up against and don't bring a knife to a gun fight

Hound hunting is for the hounds. I agree, the hounds are hunting, the person aint. They are just the taxi driver. The "hunter" is living vicariously through the hounds. If I saw where the hunter was bringing something to the table I might change my mind. Also I am sure if the State considered the hounds as actual hunter they would require you to buy them individual hunting license in addition to what ever else they currently require

Hound hunting is about family & friends. Make up your mind in your previous statement you said it was for the hounds. We can add more people to the mix but they will just as useless to the hounds as the orginial person.

Hound hunting...legal. No arguement there it is legal and I have no problem with that or anyone who participates in it. Neither am I of the opinion that it should be outlawed. We have been in agreement on this from the start.

Hounds...good. Most of the time. I do get ticked when I find them chasing the wildlife on my farm, Chasing my cows and calfs (usually equals dead dog) or they attack my dogs or eat their food. More so I get mad when I see one that has been wondering for days and looks almost starved because that lousy SOB that call themself an owner does not take care of them.

Coyotes...bad - Total 100% agreement.


Now if you look at this, other than the math I think we are pretty much on the same page.

My whole question to this is when you do it why do you consider "yourself" hunting as opposed to just letting your dogs kill something? I don't mean it offensively I'm just looking for someone to explain how that fit into their defination of hunting.

Woods I'm not bashing them, I've never suggested anyone stop using hounds I just ask them to explain to me, using something other than rethoric, complaints, crys of persucusion, and emotional agreement why they think it they are hunting. I want to see the other side of this from a reasonable point of view.

Supporting someone because they are a hunter make as much sense to me as supporting Hillary or Obama because you are a democrat! Use you mind and prove to the Anti hunting group were are not a bunch knuckle draggers but instead intelligent and ethical (law abiding and humane) people. Then we will get a lot more respect.
 
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Everythings cool Nick, it is just a little light hearted debate. I respect the fact that when someone disagrees with me they will say it and I hope they afford me the same respect.

I don't think anyone is angry, or at least I'm not.
 
Tarry,

"It's all about the hounds" As in they enjoy what they do[track, chase/kill coyotes]. A reality for sure.

"It's all about family & friends" As in spending time together with our hounds out in the field. Another reality.

As to what a "hunter.../person" add's to "hound hunting " other than being a "taxi" Well lets see;

Person finds a fresh track vs. an old one. Not every joe blow can tell the difference, LOL!. = Experience.

Knowing his hounds well, which ones to use & when to use them.

Knowing how many of his hounds it takes to "handle/kill" a coyote. Believe me, most hounds want help right now!, LOL!

Believe it or not. We would shoot the coyote once we got on scene & pulled the hounds back. Which generally was right shortly after the catch.

Knowledge of where the coyote will run. Takes experience, not some joe blow city slicker.

Some coyotes run under brush piles or in a den hole. Other's will run into a culvert. Game over.

Some coyotes just plain kick the hounds butt. Coyote escapes. A "catch" is not always a "kill" See the video, that coyote breaks free many times. Why? The coyote is kicking butt.


1 hound vs 1-coyote?? Really?. Tarry have you ever seen up close a lone dog fight a coyote?.... I've seen a boatload of good fast hard fighting coyote dogs. Fight a coyote face to face 1 on 1. Coyote kicks butt, no ifs ands or butts.

There are dogs that can kill a coyote 1 on 1. Generally they are referred to as a "Throat dog". Any other kind of coyote hound will pay dearly. These "lone coyote killer's" are a very high premium to buy. Also a rarity for sure. A houndsman, would pay top dollar if he/she wanted to buy "a lone coyote killer". Thus, the hound pack rule applys.

You watch most any hound/coyote catch. Unless that hound gets in a "VERY Quick throat hold & doesn't let go". That hound will get it's face slashed by that little buzz-zaw.
Now say, that coyote is 40 lbs or more. [I've seen a boatload of 40+ coyotes in my time]. That lone hound best be girded up. As he/she is in for a whupping.

BTW, a coon is nothing like a coyote in a fight. Many of our sighthounds would dispatch a coon[even a large boar] in short order... But not a coyote. As it takes back-up on a regular basis on a coyote. Coyotes are just to dang quick in a fight[faster than the average dog]. Et do not lack in stamina or ability.
 
I'll repeat this once more. We would spot a sleeping coyote from afar.
Make a plan on how/when/where to stalk-in on the coyote with our sighthounds. Stalking in on a coyote on loud ground cover, takes experience..Trust me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif.

We would walk in as a group. Sighthounds, "rarely" would bark. So they were ideal for stalking/walking in on predators.
 
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