HELP!-Need muzzleloader tips

Originally Posted By: Kizmo HOWEVER, I don't want anything "finicky". So, would you please explain what you mean about "finicky rifles".


Finicky means a couple of things in a MZ. First finicky means it will only shoot accurately one type of projectile or one type of powder, or one type of anything.

Another part of finicky is alot of the TC's(whick I really like and own several) Are extremley hard to load. They will only take a specific sabot or a specifically sized conical.

A third factor is that the rifles will only shoot one shot, then you can't get the second shot down a fouled barrel. Or the second shot is way off target.

I have owned 3 different Encore MZ barrels. And have been around easily another 2 dozen or more. About 1/2 of them were extremely finicky about all the above. That is why I don't like them. I had two Omega's. One was the most accurate MZ I have ever seen in my life. However it took a hammer to get a load down the barrel. And it was physically impossible to get a second shot down the barrel. This is what I mean by finicky.

In my MK-85's and my Knight LRH I can load anything down the tube. Conical or sabot. And they all shoot accurately with whatever powder I choose. I consider the Knight's as a non-finicky rifle. Alot of that has to do with a superior(IMO) Green mountain Barrel.

I sound like I am knocking the Encore. And in a way I am. I know alot of guys who have had extremely good luck with theirs. But I also know alot of guys who have alot of finicky problems with theirs.

Also you will need to do a trigger job on any Encore. So for the price of a Pro Hunter I should not have to do trigger work. And the trigger should at least be adjustable. But it is not. Just an opinion. But this opinion is from a guy who owns a dozen or more MZ's. And has been shooting MZ's for over 40 years.

As far as cleaning is concerned. With the exception of a Savage you have to clean all of them. If 2 or 3 minutes is going to make you procrastinate then I suggest you stay away from MZ's. They are not as simple as a CF rifle.

I also agree with 2-Much on the CVA's. No thank you. Tom.
 
i was in same boat few yrs ago when i got my 1st muzzleloader
I went with T/C Omega Z5,and love it.Easy to use,shoots very well.DRT deer easy @200yds with cheap Bushnell 3-9,powerbelt{platnium}easy loading,with 3 pellets of 777.
not ever had a miss/no fired yet.
 
I have a 2 CVA muzzle loaders they are nice and will kill a der as good as any other out to 125 yards or so.I bought a TC pro Hunter last year and fell in love. They are too much money yes, before everyone jumps on that! lol
Does it do that much better than my CVA , not really until you start shooting at 150 to 200 yards! The Pro Hunter is very consistent shot after shot. I am not sure about others saying a gun is finiky. Once you find the right powder and load combination that is all I shoot
 
Originally Posted By: oilman52 Once you find the right powder and load combination that is all I shoot



That is one of the other way's I define finicky. If I pay $700 or $800 for an MZ then I want it to shoot what I want-not what it wants. I want a rifle that will shoot round balls, conicals, and sabots. And any type of powder I want. Not a rifle that only shoots one or two particular loads.
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Tom.
 
Well, Kizmo, time is much too short for you to get that which
would fit your needs and personality.

If you have a Savage CF in a heavy barrel varmint configuration,
such as the VLP, you could just get another barrel in .45. No
need for immediate cleaning as you would be shooting smokeless.
No fuss, no muss. You could get all the info you needed over
on Doug's Message Boards under "Savage/Smokeless Muzzleloading".

But it can take four months to get a barrel. It sure is nice
to have a ML which will outdo a lot of CF magnums, though. As
for the "needed second shot", why? They are accurate enough
that the second shot should not be needed out to 300yds, if you
do your part.
 
finiky, yes that is what I thought you meant. I am not sure my Pro Hunter is Finiky, I went on the forum saw what others said was accurate and tried that combination. I can do better than 1.5 inches for three shots at 100 yards just about every time with a basic rest on a bench. I figured why would want to try anything else? I buy 777 powder pellets and the same bullets each time to keep life simple. What application would I not want to shoot that load? Is there something specific that you hunt that you change muzzle loader loads for? I am not trying to argue I am curious what you feel the need to change loads, or bullets for. I always thought the most accurate hunting bullet and load won in every one of my muzzle loaders. I have been shooting muzzle loaders for about 35 plus years, but I only use them for deer hunting so everyones application may be different.
 
Man, there's so much good info here I should pay you guys.

HOGGHEAD-I agree that one shouldn't have to get a trigger job on a $700-$800 muzzleloader. That's a big turn off to me. Also, I don't want to spend an excessive amount of hit and miss time finding a bullet/load combo that my gun will like, so that's a turn off too.

psyco, 2muchgun and Danno-I have several Savages and love them. I was not aware that they made a muzzleloader. Weight isn't a big deal to me, since this is a strictly stand hunting lease. I will be looking into these.

biggen-thanks for the tip on the muzzleloader website.
 
Put 75-100 shots through it at the range. Many times I have seen them shoot ok but once you get a bunch of rounds through em they tighen up. Seen TC's that really needed that done. Plus that will get you used to how they fire.
 
Originally Posted By: HOGGHEADOriginally Posted By: oilman52 Once you find the right powder and load combination that is all I shoot



That is one of the other way's I define finicky. If I pay $700 or $800 for an MZ then I want it to shoot what I want-not what it wants. I want a rifle that will shoot round balls, conicals, and sabots. And any type of powder I want. Not a rifle that only shoots one or two particular loads.
smile.gif
Tom.

All I can say is FAT CHANCE...
thumbdown.gif
You will never find one, that is for sure. MZ loaders are not any different than a center fire rifle when it comes to being able to shoot anything you put in it real good. Just aint going to happen.
A muzzle loader that will shoot the way you want is nothing but a pipe dream. IMHO.
DAB
 
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I cant help with equipment needs but I can help with the learning curve. When you get your rifle, shoot it at close range to get it close before moving out to 50. CLEAN AFTER EVERY SHOT while sighting in. Your first shot on game will be from a spotless bore so that is the only POI you need to be concerned with. If you are on paper, dont adjust your scope until you have fired a three shot group. Do this for every adjustment. Your POI for the first shot could be 1 1/4 left of center. But if it shoots 1 1/2 groups you may be on target and wont know it without finishing the group.

Again, I cant stress this enough. CLEAN AFTER EVERY SHOT.
 
Originally Posted By: DABOriginally Posted By: HOGGHEADOriginally Posted By: oilman52 Once you find the right powder and load combination that is all I shoot



That is one of the other way's I define finicky. If I pay $700 or $800 for an MZ then I want it to shoot what I want-not what it wants. I want a rifle that will shoot round balls, conicals, and sabots. And any type of powder I want. Not a rifle that only shoots one or two particular loads.
smile.gif
Tom.

All I can say is FAT CHANCE...
thumbdown.gif
You will never find one, that is for sure. MZ loaders are not any different than a center fire rifle when it comes to being able to shoot anything you put in it real good. Just aint going to happen.
A muzzle loader that will shoot the way you want is nothing but a pipe dream. IMHO.
DAB

I have only tried 4-5 different bullets IIRC in my Knight. And probably only 3 different powders. However, it has shot every one of them acceptably well for hunting. 1.75" groups or better with all. My bud's Knight is the same way. He says it shoots whatever he feeds it. He seems to be shooting a different load all the time.

2 other good buds shoot T/Cs. Both are very hard to load, and much more picky about what they like. Neither will shoot as good as the Knights, even with their best loads......
 
Originally Posted By: DABOriginally Posted By: HOGGHEADOriginally Posted By: oilman52 Once you find the right powder and load combination that is all I shoot



That is one of the other way's I define finicky. If I pay $700 or $800 for an MZ then I want it to shoot what I want-not what it wants. I want a rifle that will shoot round balls, conicals, and sabots. And any type of powder I want. Not a rifle that only shoots one or two particular loads.
smile.gif
Tom.

All I can say is FAT CHANCE...
thumbdown.gif
You will never find one, that is for sure. MZ loaders are not any different than a center fire rifle when it comes to being able to shoot anything you put in it real good. Just aint going to happen.
A muzzle loader that will shoot the way you want is nothing but a pipe dream. IMHO.
DAB





Not sure about your past experiences with MZ's. And I am sure you are conveying what happened. All I can convey is what has happened to us(about 20 MZ shooters combined). And in general all our Knight MZ's will pretty much shoot accurately what you put down the pipe. I have shot conicals, sabots, and round balls from all my Knight rifles. With more than acceptable accuracy from all projectiles. So my experince is the opposite of yours. It happens.

I can not say we had the same experience with the Encore and Omega. In our opinion they were finicky rifles. Only a certain load, or a specific sabot. I don't need that!! Tom.
 
Originally Posted By: oilman52 I can do better than 1.5 inches for three shots at 100 yards just about every time with a basic rest on a bench. I figured why would want to try anything else? I buy 777 powder pellets and the same bullets each time to keep life simple. What application would I not want to shoot that load? Is there something specific that you hunt that you change muzzle loader loads for? I am not trying to argue I am curious what you feel the need to change loads, or bullets for.


Yes I do shoot different projectiles for different things. That is probably the real difference between us. I like to practice with my rifles. At $1.00 a shot for T-7 and expensive bullets, sabots, and primers, that is just too expensive for my practice. So I like to practice with the projectiles that I mold myself. I also like a big heavy conicals for elk. But when groundhog hunting I like a faster sabot. So yes I use alot of different projectiles.

As far as T-7 is concerned. I swore off those pellets along time ago. The powder is extremely hygroscopic, and I have had problems with that property in that powder. I hope you never have any of those problems. But when it happens you will throw that T-7 in the trash. I hope you don't have that problem. But I have. Tom.
 
Quote: Man, there's so much good info here I should pay you guys.


I was thinking they should be paying you for reading it.
smile.gif


Quote: Also, I don't want to spend an excessive amount of hit and miss time finding a bullet/load combo that my gun will like, so that's a turn off too.

I don't understand that?
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Most of the guys on this board are pretty died in the wool shooters who will spend considerable time and expense coming up with their own load or over the counter load for their suppository guns. Maybe you are not one of them, but if you are, then why are you so anxious to short cut the process with a ML?
 
Originally Posted By: Longcruise I don't understand that?
confused.gif
Most of the guys on this board are pretty died in the wool shooters who will spend considerable time and expense coming up with their own load or over the counter load for their suppository guns. Maybe you are not one of them, but if you are, then why are you so anxious to short cut the process with a ML?

I like to kill deer. While I enjoy shooting "modern" guns for the fun of it, a muzzloader is just a means to an end for me.
 
I think my remarks came across practically the opposite of what I meant!
blushing.gif


I'm not knocking muzzle loaders or hunting with them. Been one of my favorite pursuits for over thirty years.

Was asking why you would want to short cut the process of finding a good load and projectile for your ML gun.
 
I have 5 Knights, I sold & traded off the last of my other brands. This Fall I will use a Disc 'Elite', with the Lehigh conversion breech plug, a 2.5lb trigger & my vari-x-III 1.75-6. My load is 120 grains of Blackhorn 209 ignited with a CCIM primer. I use a Hornady 250 grn SST sabot.

I mostly deer hunt in IL the last few years, no centerfire rifles for deer. My response is to trick out my Knight as much as possible. I am very content with the performance.

And FYI, the Knight trigger is easily user adjustable.
 
Well two more cents can't hurt. I bought a Disc Extreme a couple years ago to use in Colorado for elk hunting. Got a smoking deal from Sportsmans Warehouse on clearence. It's the stainless camo version and quite nice looking I might add. Anywho,I needed full bore bullets for it's intended purpose in Colorado. Oh I tried the usual stuff. Powerbelts (yuck!) shot well enough but I just can't fall in love with a bullet that can creep away from the charge. TC MAXI balls and Great Plains alco shot extreamly well. Then on a whim,I ordered some No Excuses in 2 different weights and styles. Well,a hundred of each and darn glad I did! I love these slugs for a full bore bullet. Pre lubed and super accurate. Seated over 100gr of Black Horn I think I've found a friend for life. Ignition is fast and fool proof even with the stock nipple. The trigger on the Knight Disc is one of the best triggers in my safe,and I'm not easily impressed with triggers. After shooting BR behind 2oz. triggers on 6 PPCs, I know what a good trigger is. In a nut shell,Muzzy Loaders are a blast to work with. Once you get one all dialed in,get out and enjoy it.
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I don't currently have a pic of the disc in the computer,so I thought I would post one of a little older ignition system. This is a .58 LeMan I built from parts a couple winters ago. Not an in-line,but definately a muzzle loader.
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