C0y0tes in Heaven?

The 19 hijackers of 9/11 believed in heaven. And they were educated, PhD graduates, - and people of faith. Devout. Very devout in fact. It is this kind of hoping and wishing type of thinking, just because it feels good, to believe in an afterlife, when there is absolutely no evidence for it, is what is holding back the advancement of mankind today.
Just look at history. The non-ending lists of religions that have come and gone. Look at the wars, past and present. Look at to what degree religions play a part in them. Somehow, someway, we must find the courage to face the facts of realty, and make clear and educated decisions on how to live in a peaceful and productive world. Concentrating on an afterlife in this life, that does not exist, screws this life up for everyone, big time. There is a much better and much more rewarding way to live in the here and now. Peace my PM brothers and sisters.
'The End of Faith' by Sam Harris. Youtube and podcast.
 
Sam Harris was wrong. You are invited to go to heaven. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior by faith.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
 
Why only Jesus? Why not The Elephant Headed God Ganesh? What do you mean you don't have elephants in your back yard? Sounds like someone is in for a damnation. Or what about the Monkey Headed God Hanuman? What do you mean you don't have monkeys in your backyard? Well there's another reason to go to [beeep]. Now, times this times 10,000 other Gods that are out there you get my drift. They all make unjustifiable claims about how world really is without any evidence. It's time for a stall grow up.
 
243, I assume your question is sincere. The entire Old Testament is filled with prophesy foretelling the arrival of a Messiah. The details of his arrival, life, death, and resurrection are documented fact. Jesus Christ fulfilled all those prophesies. He rose from the dead as promised. The monkey headed go Hanuman did not.

Don't believe me just because I tell you. Research for yourself.

353 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

It is not bad to question things. It is not blind faith. It is based on evidence.

"I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins."


 
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Originally Posted By: 243kimber The 19 hijackers of 9/11 believed in heaven. And they were educated, PhD graduates, - and people of faith. Devout. Very devout in fact. It is this kind of hoping and wishing type of thinking, just because it feels good, to believe in an afterlife, when there is absolutely no evidence for it, is what is holding back the advancement of mankind today.
Just look at history. The non-ending lists of religions that have come and gone. Look at the wars, past and present. Look at to what degree religions play a part in them. Somehow, someway, we must find the courage to face the facts of realty, and make clear and educated decisions on how to live in a peaceful and productive world. Concentrating on an afterlife in this life, that does not exist, screws this life up for everyone, big time. There is a much better and much more rewarding way to live in the here and now. Peace my PM brothers and sisters.


Let me take a stab at this..

the 19 terrorists are no more religious than a christian the bombs innocents at a clinic they disagree with. Like AZ said sitting in a building on sunday doesn't mean your following the teachings.

Don't confuse the two.

Religions that come and go, may be plentiful, but they are not true religions, seems more like a cult.

One thing you find when reading and learning about religion regardless of the foundation is morals. Read and review the tenants of the Jewish, Christians, muslims, budists. There are parts of the Koran that are distorted. But the basis at the root are morals and how to live a good life.

How you live your life today and with a moral compass based on the teachings, is a path that some drift, some turn away from, but in the end it's the path. Following that path is the route to heaven in the next. Materialism and self grandeur, over inflated ego's that make people believe they are more important than they are isn't moral.. It's selfish.
My path isn't the same as others, and to each their own, but telling others how to walk their path or berating their path is only a path down, not up.
 
Originally Posted By: 243kimber The 19 hijackers of 9/11 believed in heaven. And they were educated, PhD graduates, - and people of faith. Devout. Very devout in fact. It is this kind of hoping and wishing type of thinking, just because it feels good, to believe in an afterlife, when there is absolutely no evidence for it, is what is holding back the advancement of mankind today.
Just look at history. The non-ending lists of religions that have come and gone. Look at the wars, past and present. Look at to what degree religions play a part in them. Somehow, someway, we must find the courage to face the facts of realty, and make clear and educated decisions on how to live in a peaceful and productive world. Concentrating on an afterlife in this life, that does not exist, screws this life up for everyone, big time. There is a much better and much more rewarding way to live in the here and now. Peace my PM brothers and sisters.
'The End of Faith' by Sam Harris. Youtube and podcast.

Just because radical Islam kills in the name of religion, does not erase the existence of God. And I fail to see how religion is holding back our advancement. Mankind is advancing at a rate never seen before and if you look back at just the last 100 years, the concept that religion is holding us back does not hold water. Look at our technology, weapons of war, modern medicine and the information super highway you are reading this on. Our advancements are allowing us to do ourselves in at an accelerated rate, without any consideration of God.

Life itself has a primordial instinct to kill for self-preservation. Coyotes will kill the pups of others in defense of their food sources, territory and the thrill of the kill. Coyotes do not believe in any God, nor could they process the “concept of God”. Our world is not a liberal, snowflake safe zone. Natural selection and population control cannot be blamed on belief in Gods. Nature is cruel and hard core while simultaneously giving life to the fuzzy, cute animals melting the hearts of our left wing tree huggers. Mosquitoes have killed more people than men during all wars. And our most recent and significant wars where not fought over religion; Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW1 and WW11 all come to mind. Yet, assess the “holy” wars and factor in the number of conscripts killing for something they don’t believe in, let alone understand. You really want to see what mankind is capable of doing to each other, shut off the power grid, cut off access to food and water sources, starvation is something everyone understands and believes in.

Originally Posted By: 243kimberWhy only Jesus? Why not The Elephant Headed God Ganesh? What do you mean you don't have elephants in your back yard? Sounds like someone is in for a damnation. Or what about the Monkey Headed God Hanuman? What do you mean you don't have monkeys in your backyard? Well there's another reason to go to [beeep]. Now, times this times 10,000 other Gods that are out there you get my drift. They all make unjustifiable claims about how world really is without any evidence. It's time for a stall grow up.

I don’t know how worshiping elephant heads, goat heads, statues or monkey skulls proves anything, other than there are some messed up people out there. What real evidence is there that proves God does not exist? I firmly believe that one cannot graft a new idea onto a closed mind, so I am ready to hear evidence that debunks my faith. Therefore?

In the meantime I will sit here and wallow in sorrow, contemplating how any God could allow these mosquitoes to keep killings through the ages
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It's a wonderful discussion. Next to coyote hunting/reloading/shooting, topics of what is driving this world of ours is as you say, amazing. And with this new technology, we can see and determine what is and is not fake news. Old customs die hard.
I guess my biggest criticism is of Islam and how it's violent political ideology, that would not be tolerated for a second in the west, can not only survive, and grow, but actually take over entire countries because of the term 'Religion' that it hides behind.
Learning about other religions, past and present, one can see 'Elmer Gantry Effect', of other religions, but he not the one they were indoctrinated with as a child.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/waking-up-with-sam-harris/id733163012?mt=2&i=1000370768979
May this podcast by Sam Harris, starting at the one hour, 4 minute mark, you can see what I'm getting at.
 
Originally Posted By: chrs_28I like where this started, and love where its going!

LOL, well, gitch ya some fast cause it's not likely to last much longer. You see Jesus Himself admonished us "Do not cast your pearls among swine." Now before anyone gets their panties in a wad this is not implying that those who disagree with Christianity are pigs. Of course they're not, they're simply doomed to solitary confinement for eternity without God if they die before finding and acknowledging the truth. You will one day find out that the one and only true God,is exactly who He says He is,. the creator of the universe. Sadly it will be too late at that point when Richard Dawkins and the poor souls whose minds he polluted are at bended knee before God begging for just one more chance. Sadly The late Mr Dawkins is already too aware of his mistake.

It is important to read scripture within the proper context. Casting your pearls is a reference to a parable taught by Jesus. And one that we, the Elect need to pay close attention to. I'm going to follow His admonition here and not waste my time trying to convince someone to come to the Truth when their neck is so stiff they fight at every turn. I realize you can't throw all the starfish back in the sea. Strangely enough God loves every human ever born enough to give them free will. If your free will leads you through the wide gate instead of the narrow....oh well.

I hope that all Christians, true Christians, not just those claiming to be one, maybe even believing they are while not, will extend to you extra grace knowing your final destination. You see we can at times be our own worst enemies by failing to study God's Word deeply enough. Less than mature Christians really do try to follow the last command given by Jesus before ascending to heaven. That being "Go forth throughout the nation's making disciples." And it's good that they do, however I admit that at times some of us can be a little overzealous. You see further study will show us that Jesus Himself never espoused easy believism. He warned us all that we must give up everything and follow Him. He taught in parables so only the truly committed would explore deeper to understand. Look it is not easy to be a true believer, it's not intended for everyone.

So I'm all in on this topic. It's no skin off my teeth if you hump up your back and head for the wide gate with the rest of the goats (no offense intended). I surely do wish Mr. I'm so sorry now Dawkins could speak to his audience now. LOL
 
243, I bet you did not even read the list of prophesies. Some people don't want to know the truth. They just want to kill God in their mind so that they can justify their rebellion and sin.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
 
"Wide gate" is an understatement to say the least! It would have to be so wide infact, that it would have to accommodate 99.9% of every human being that are or have ever peacefully existed on this planet. Right now there are undiscovered tribes in the amazon living without Christ, but as the true "god" has intended. What is their fate? Do they have [beeep] to look forward to or is there another convenient loophole for them? Should we go down there and "save" them, or take a lesson from history and let them be?..

Is monarchy the truest, most effective form of governance? According to you and the Bible It would have to be, since that is the form that the biblical god chooses to rule by.

We can look at the tribes of the Middle East at that time and can easily see why they would make god a dictator. For It is the only form of government that they have been exposed to. The tribes in the jungle decided a monkey headed god ruled the world. The tribes that lived near a volcano believed god lived down there...having all these gods hand crafted to neatly fit their creators environment, points to the fact that man has a tendency to make things up as he goes along. Christianity is no different.. the god of Christianity perfectly fits the environment of a superstitious middle eastern bronze aged Jewish person

Proving that god doesn't exist, is the same dilemma as proving Bigfoot does not exist. One cannot prove a negative. We hunters know that Bigfoot does not exist, but who's to say really that somewhere out there, that on some remote hillside..

Our arguement, at least mine, is not over the existence of god. The discussion over the existence of a "prime mover" is open for debate. The discussion ends however, when certain "enlightened" classes of people claim to not only know this simple question (that eludes the rest of us), they also know the minor details about "him"as well... What he likes, who he likes, what kind of food he wants you to eat. Exactly how long it takes for him to build things..I tell you the ego of man certainly shines through in these writings. Especially where god was created in our image..

Then when pressed and asked for their sources, they provide a couple dusty scrolls that have been authored by primitive men and rehashed countless times by Men who thought the world was flat, that the sun circled the earth..

for some reason I'm reminded of something I read awhile ago. An astronaut that visited the dark side of the moon was asked if he saw God there. He responded " yes, I did. She's black"

I find life to be fair and just on its own terms. I'm glad to say, there is absolutely no proof of heaven or an afterlife, eternity is a long time, and if heaven really existed and coyotes were there, they'd never ever get away..robbing us of the exact reason that victory is so sweet
I do sometimes wish that I would be able to see the faces on some, when they discover that their god is a black woman, but I know that it's only wishful thinking on my part.
 
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Swampwalker, there is so much in the paragraph you wrote that I couldn't even know where to begin to correct you.

You have all those opinions. Do you know anything about the Bible? Have you bothered to read it? Do you know how it was written and transmitted over the ages? Have you read the prophesy link I included earlier?

You have formed opinions that have no basis in fact that will determine whether you go to heaven or are lost forever apart from God.

Pretty big stakes.

Proverbs 14:12

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
 
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I've read enough of it. Getting past the talking snake, virgin births, dead people walking around, seas parting.. was difficult. I'm also aware That you wouldn't even be a Christian unless Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.. what a twist of fate that was..I also know that the religious leaders (those who were actually there) and those that met Jesus and made a living studying the texts, believed Jesus to not be the messiah. Also, it's been 2,000 plus years since the romans killed him. in that time, countless Famine, war, the holocaust, tornadoes, tsunamis and so on have ravaged the innocent .( let happened)...anyone of these instances could have been a perfect time for Jesus to intervene, but hasn't.

you see, you're the one behind the 8 ball and it's going to have to be a heck of a shot to convince those with critical thinking skills, that your god happens to be the correct one out of the thousands of phonies..

 
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True, so much of scripture is written with symbolism that leaves it not only open for interpretation but confusion as well. I believe we will simply be judged by what is in our hearts. What is in our hearts is defined by the nature of our actions. The nature of our actions is guided by our thoughts. Our thought process is formed by our interpretations and reactions to the whole of our environment. What we are taught as children has influence but it does not define our character, some of societies’ most evil people had very religious upbringings. The music I listened to, the people I hung out with, the things I smoked, the women I chased and even the whisky I drank had more influence over me than anything authority had to say. I can safely say that I was not indoctrinated into spiritual principles.

What is God’s true name and what does he go by when he is hanging out with his friends? God has many names and is worshiped by multiple rituals founded in an array of different brands of religion. If your God is loving, caring, forgiving and stands ready give redemption then it sounds like the same God I worship. If there is light in your heart then come as you are? If your God of worship is a tree, monkey head or any other earthly form of matter that is confined to the laws and limits of this universe, you need to expand your horizons and consider a new set of glasses.

Swampy, as far as those tribes down in the Amazon; leave them be and let them do their thing. They have something we have lost, the hunter-gatherer culture with a direct connection to their natural world. While we cannot see into their hearts we can see that even their lives are lived with beliefs that some supernatural being is in control of their world. Similar to our Native Americans’ culture of yesterday, they believe more than just humans have souls. Their Shaman create hallucinogenic drugs from certain plants they believe have sprits, they use in their rituals to connect with their “Gods”. I would be interested in going down there for the experience, as long as I know they are not going to cut off my head, fill it with sand and then shrink it. Maybe one day in heaven I will call in a coyote across a field of those plants.

You know masses of people were killed by Christians during the crusades. If you look at the war against radical Islam, we are fighting a Holy War with conventional tactics and rules. The best military plan of action to eliminate their shenanigans would be a modern day crusade.
 
Originally Posted By: Infidel 762I would be interested in going down there for the experience, as long as I know they are not going to cut off my head, fill it with sand and then shrink it.

lets go. i will back you up with my trusty 223.
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Self grandeur of youth is a blindness to the reality of the world we actually live in.


Some can open their minds and hearts without proof, others remain stubborn until it smacks them in the face. The more I see following generations rely upon their phone as a source of truth, the more they are led away from the truth they claim to know.

claiming self righteous based on a flawed understanding of "critical thinking" is humorous and in years ahead hopefully those that buy this attempt to claim the high ground of understanding will learn they don't know as much as they have been cheerleaded into believing they know.


There may be groups that believe in their version of God. So, by that same thought line of critical thinking, are you also saying that there is only one true language in the world and the rest are just proof that there is no language?

Just because other speak other languages doesn't mean they can't communicate. It would then reason that God is a being more than we can comprehend, and could be the same God regardless of the religion or combined moral code [as in within a tribe in the Amazon]. Not reading the same book doesn't change how they live and treat others with kindness, compassion and virtue. It also doesn't change the fact that all cultures have basic laws, things like Murder and other crimes are crimes the world over, even in the Amazon. How does that happen?

There are simply things out there that are beyond comprehension, even within our own sphere of accepted understanding. I could try to explain Finite Mathematics, and if someone doesn't get it, that doesn't mean it doesn't really exist. But that is the reasoning some are using to say God Doesn't exist.

There are things that i have seen in the jungles of Asia, the deserts of Egypt, the mountains of Afghanistan, and the several oceans of the world [that i have floated on] that you couldn't imagine and understand. I know i couldn't, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't true.

I defy anyone to stand at the base of the Pyramids, really truly understand them in the sense that every single block is within a couple pounds of each other, they are level, and aligned along a compass line and inline with stars. How? how did that happen thousands of years ago? Even with today's technology, they could replicate that.
The building of the Apple building took almost a decade and they were building at a lower tolerance rate than the Egypt. The contractors left and they went through many contractors and billions of dollars, and that place is no Pyramid.

 
Originally Posted By: swampwalkerI've read enough of it. Getting past the talking snake, virgin births, dead people walking around, seas parting.. was difficult. I'm also aware That you wouldn't even be a Christian unless Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.. what a twist of fate that was..I also know that the religious leaders (those who were actually there) and those that met Jesus and made a living studying the texts, believed Jesus to not be the messiah. Also, it's been 2,000 plus years since the romans killed him. in that time, countless Famine, war, the holocaust, tornadoes, tsunamis and so on have ravaged the innocent .( let happened)...anyone of these instances could have been a perfect time for Jesus to intervene, but hasn't.

you see, you're the one behind the 8 ball and it's going to have to be a heck of a shot to convince those with critical thinking skills, that your god happens to be the correct one out of the thousands of phonies..



If you can believe the very first line of the Bible

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...

You shouldn't have a problem believing anything else that follows ... the virgin birth, seas parting, ect...

Your basic argument is that Jesus didn't "do it" the way you would have done it. Therefore, he wasn't who he claimed to be. You have to see the humor in that. I am sure he feels bad that he didn't consult you on his plans for the redemption of mankind.

Jesus directly addressed those who rejected him as the Messiah.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

The problem isn't your thinking skills. The evidence is clearly there. You can't hear his words because of your sin and your pride.
 
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In Revelations it speaks that the Lions will lay down with the lambs. I would hope to meet some of the precious pets that I have had, that had a heart that only a loving God could have given.

Of course, when we are sitting at the feet of Jesus, praising Him, some of these Worldly wants and wishes will probably disappear as we sing and Shout the Victory of how His Blood Cleansed us from our Sin, completely.
 
Preach on brother. Your assertions are exactly my point. Nothing can be more self aggrandizeing then claiming to know God's ways and to also know what lies beyond the grave. I know, only that I don't know. Others know it all with their books.. then talk about how humble we ought to be. The religious books clearly state that the hypothetical Amazonian tribesman are a lost people.. I disagree.

Believe in what you want. Religious beliefs makes up a small part of a persons character on the whole. I'd gladly take the company of a Christian patriot conservative over an atheist liberal any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
 
Swamp, at least we agree on one thing. It is good to be a conservative gun owning pro hunting patriot.

You look young in your picture. Hopefully, you will reconsider your opinions before it is too late. I wasn't always a Christian. It was the overwhelming evidence that convinced me. My engineering mind wanted proof. The proof was always there. I just wasn't ready.
 
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