Is a 223 Rem/40Vmax/3800 fps possible ?

Let put this to rest, since the advent of the 204 Ruger it's time for the 223 crowd to realise that the 223 is a really good plinker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif reliable, cheap, but sort of pedestrian.

40 grain Hornady bc .275
3800 (hodgon data)
200 yard zero
400 yard velocity 2377 fps
400 yard energy 502 ft/lbs
400 yard impact -14 inches

With a 297 yard zero the 400 yard impact will be -8.1 with a mid trajectory hight of 3.1

It's a good thing 223 ammo is cheap /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If your gun does not shoot the 40's the 39 seirra's do about the same.

ballistics calculated on
http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=%2fbalcalc.ascx
 
Those must be metric figures......just kidding aulrich....

A BC of .275 on a 40gr. Hornady VMax huh ?

I don't have the VMax BC numbers on computer, but being similar, I do the Nosler BT's and Sierra BK's.

Nosler's BC's are;

.221 for the 40gr, and,
.276 for the 55gr.

Sierra's are;

.155 for the 40gr, and,
.271 for the 55gr.

I'll have to check on the 40gr VMax numbers as they seem awful high for a 40gr. The 55gr Nosler BT's exceed that by one point, and the Sierra BK's are short.
That BC sounds more like a 55gr VMax to me.

A 40gr. bullet with a .221BC at 3700 fps, and a 200yd. zero, will have 2060fps at 400yds, and 377fpe remaining. I calculated a drop of 16.82 with that 200yd zero.

My previous data was based on the 55gr SPT's, admittedly not the polymer tipped bullets, but their BC was slightly higher at .279. The 40gr Sierra's ran slightly less than their BK counterparts, but not a whole lot.

Based on BC numbers, if higher, as mentioned previously, this could make a difference in height adjustment, but the energy based either way, will always be tilted in favor of the 55gr bullets.

Comparison wise though, I think I'd rather have the little extra energy at the longer ranges. Based on
average data, it's at least 20% more at 400yds, and in some comparisons its closer to double. Any difference of a couple inches has never hindered me at all.

Take care,
Bob
 
I will give my perspective, based on my experiences. In any given bullet weight and design, My 22 hornet will not acheive the velocites my 222 will. My 222 will not acheive the velocities of my 223. My 223 will not acheive the velocities of my 22-250. and the 22-250 will not run with my 22-250 AI or my swift. If you want 4000 fps from a 40 grain bullet, choose a cartridge designed to do so at acceptable pressures. If you have a 223, and want to shoot 40 gr bullets, by all means do so. That is your choice. Don't expect to get 22-250 velocities.
 
Handgunr:

I believe the BC number aulrich is using is for a 40 grain .204" bullet. He is comparing the 40 grain 20 caliber bullet versus a similar 40 grain .224" bullet.

Actual 20 caliber BC's:

Hornady 40 = .275
Hornady 32 = .210

Sierra 39 = .287 above 3600 FPS
Sierra 32 = .221 above 3950 FPS

Sierra publishes separate bullet BC's for different velcities ranges as they actually do change with down range velocity changes. The above quoted Sierra BC's are comparable to Hornady's one published muzzle velocity number for each bullet.

Those BC's are why some of us dummies like the 20 calibers so much. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No need to expand this discusion further here as I just noticed someone has just recently posted asking for comparison thoughts on the 204 Ruger versus the 223 Rem. That post alone should generate some interesting mortar fire in the next day or so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I. O. N.: 6000 is easily doable with a bb gun - if the whole gun is fired into space. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- BCB
 
Did you guys ever think the original poster could've been checking the load books and wondering if they were right? After all they are the ones who said it can be done but what do they know?

As for reality next time please compare apples to apples as anyone can come up with facts to support their opinion.

There might be another reason for wanting high velocity besides long range, just a thought.
 
Well as far as 3800 fps being possible there is quite a bit of pressure tested data that shows a few powders that will do so with 24"+ barrels.
The new plastic tipped 40's have BC's that make them hang with the heavier bullets all the way out to the ranges most consider maximum for the 223 while being more explosive both because of their higher speed and lighter weight and noticably less recoil which is a help in spotting your shots.
The Nosler BT is the one though as it has a heavier base and jacket than the V-Max version as well as a slightly higher BC. It kills all out of proportion to its size and the high speed it starts out at makes for spectactular close range destruction on crows and such. You guys that think 50 and 55 grain bullets offer some advantage at up to 400 yards because of a .02-.03 higher BC while starting at several hundred fps slower than the 40 grain Nosler BT don't know what you are missing.
As far as the higher KE if you want one shot kills with smaller vermin like woodchucks and under it doesn';t matter with same shot placement. With Coyotes shot placement is again king with the 223 and none of the 50/55 grain bullets will make up for shot placement that they are any better than the 40 gr. Nosler BT placed in the same area.
 
BCB,

Yeah, I guess I kinda missed that one.....

Based on the .204's smaller diameter those number's make sense.
I know that from the data I have, the Nosler 40gr. BT has about the highest BC at .221.
The 55gr Nolser BT is .276.

Some of the earlier number's I mentioned were based on Sierra 40gr. BK's at .155, or less.

Chuck......
....Based on those numbers, and the velocities you mentioned previously, the 55gr. bullet has a 19-20% energy advantage.
Using your statement of an average of 400-500fps difference in load data between the 40 & 50 gr bullets, if you can push the 40gr. at 3800, then 3300, or 3400 should be possible with the 55grs. using your figures from earlier.
Sierra's data is limited at 3200 & 3500 respectively. But, where your giving 3800fps. as your "speed of comparison", you keep referring to 3200 as the 55gr.'s speed limit.

Run those same numbers at a 400fps. difference, using your 3800 ceiling and see what it brings.
Even at 3200fps. the 55gr's beat the 40's in energy at 400 yds.
Oh yeah, and the bullet construction being so much more explosive...maybe within 150-200 yds...possibly, based on it's lighter weight, and added higher velocity because of that, beyond that....nothing.....like I said at approx. 215-220yds, they switch hands.

A 40gr. bullet sheds velocity like a snake sheds it's skin.

That "Oh Boy" effect that the 40's give you when you get that initial zoom, peter's out real quick.
No matter how you slice it, the 40 gr. bullets can't "hang with the heavier bullets" on an "apples to apples" comparison, it's just physically impossible.
Using one 40gr. with a higher BC, can be compared to a 55gr. in the same design (VMax to VMax), and so on. Even though the 40gr. bullet starts out with a higher speed, it loses that speed quicker in comparsion, than the heavier 50 or 55gr. bullet. It's just the law of physics.


Also, the jackets for either the 40 or the 55 gr VMax's are the same thickness. They just use a longer jacket for the 55grs.......based on equal velocities, the 55gr's have more a$$ to them.

I use them pretty much exclusively....and I don't get pass through's hardly at all. Probably a 90% rate. Everything I've nailed with them, from chucks to coyote's, have dropped on the spot. And that's head shots included.

Like I mentioned earlier.....if your really sold on those 40's....using your theory, the 35gr. VMax's should be the logical choice.

We can do a Rodney King moment as well;
"Can't we all just use 50gr's....... "


Oh well.....nuff' said I guess...

Adios'

Bob
 
Handgunr, if you go by what's in a published manual then I guess your stuck by what's in a published manual. Whoops(bad language) go look at Hornady's manual, louzy!

You think McPheason is full of hot air, who are you to judge??
 
Handgunr, I use 50 grain bullets almost exclusively, I'm happy. I push them at 3285 fps (average of 5) of course that's out of a 16" AR-15 barrel. It's a book load of 26.5 grs of Benchmark listed at 3540 fps out of a 24" barrel, I got 3370 fps out of a 21.5" CZ barrel and 3408 out of a 22.5" Sako barrel. What would a good 24" barrel do?

Bottom line is there are too many loads listed in my Nosler manual that exceed 3800 fps (3810, 3860, 3812, even a 3796)with a 40 grain bullet for me to second guess them. If you guys are scared of a book load and scoff at 3800 fps, I suggest you try it first, if you don't make it tell us what you got. Why wasn't the question.
 
Handgunr,
The BC of the 35 V-max is .109 vs. .200 or .221 for the 40 gr. versions. Rather than rely on logic I'll let the math speak on that one.
My numbers use 3700 vs. 3200. Add 100 fps to both and see if the numbers change any. The 40 flies flatter, maintain a speed advantage all the way to 400 yards, but do have less KE not that I've been able to see a difference in killing ability like say moving up to the22/250 or better yet the 243.
40 gr. NBT's are my first choice and I live with them happily. Second choice does go to the 50 gr. version(grin)
 
I am a non reloader (lacking moral fiber no doubt) but hornandy's web site says there factory 40 grain vmax does 3800 and I know how ammo company's use special barrels and all that but it must be close right? JB
 
I went back through some rifle data and found the following but most was AR velocities.

BM 20" 1x8 twist H-40gr TAP 3649 fps
BM 24" 1x9 twist H-40gr VM 3770 fps
CAR 24" 1x9 twist Fed 40gr HP 3547 fps
DPMS 24" 1x8 twist H-40gr VM 3668 fps
RR 24" 1x8 twist H-40gr TAP 3668 fps
Rem 700P 26" 1x9 twist Fed.40gr HP 3587 fps.

I don't have my Rem .223 in VSSF back from the smith yet and I will try to check the H-40gr VM in my Sako 1x8 rifle.
 
Thanks Steve, too bad BCB and HNDGR are busy with their pellet guns to see your 3770 fps load, if my math is right that's just 30 fps away from 3800. I may buy some 40 grainers to run through my buddy's Ohler 35P out of my partners BM Varminter, I'd hate to buy a new gun just to get a 24" barrel to test.
 
Hi, Tom64:

Please don't worry needlessly about me and what I'm doing. I do own a pellet gun, even though I never mentioned it. But, I don't worry about getting screaming velocity from it anyway. It's more suitable for short range "fun type" accurate plinking.

I think if you'll look back through the posts to my first one, and read it slowly, I think I said I don't doubt that it's a doable thing. I just think there are better ways of doing it with a bigger cartridge more suitable for the pressure needed. I have reloading manuals and have seen the pubished velocities before, so it wasn't a real surprise for me two days ago. It's just never been anything I've had a strong need to accomplish in my life, just because it's doable.

Sorry that was confusing for you to pick up on.

Part of where I'm coming from is the fact that I played with 40 grain bullets earlier on in my shooting life and really didn't find a useful need for them in the larger cased .224's. Actually, they work great in my 221 FB to facilitate good velocity from a small case. In applications like that is where they really shine.

As others, and I, have all said, if I want/need a consistent diet of high velocity from a cartridge case not really designed for it, why not just wisely opt out for a rifle/cartridge combination with a bigger case like a 22-250, etc. I'm perfectly happy with the low 3K velocities I safely get from my 16" and 20" AR's and from a couple of bolt action 223's with 24" barrels. If I need more velocity, I'll just pick up a different cartridge/rifle combination that's better suited and more efficient for what I want to do.

Obviously, congratulations are in order for your passing math class. I feel pretty certain that 30 FPS is the right answer. I counted twice using all my fingers and toes a couple of times and came up with the same answer you did. It must have been a much easier class for you than reading comprehension apparently was.

If I remember correctly, you recently purchased a 204 Ruger. Do I have the right person? If you are who I'm thinking about, probably by next year at this time you'll be asking yourself, "Why would I want to shoot a 40 grain bullet in a 223 Remington when I can do it in a 204 Ruger where it becomes a very efficient bullet weight"? If it wasn't you, you still might want to try one. It would make a real slick AR upper for your collection.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner to converse with you while you were talkig to Steve. Actually I had lost all further interest in discussing the issue until I say you were confused about what I originally said.

Have a good one, now, and don't ya'll fret needlessly about me. I don't. - BCB
 
Hi BCB, you're right you didn't mention the pellet gun that was handgunr, you were working on your 22 hornet at 7 mag velocities but you got my drift, sarcasm goes both ways. Yes I'm playing with a 204 and have decided on 39 grain sierras but if you would carefully read my post you can see that I have no use for a 40 grain bullet in 223, I have settled on the 50 grain version. The thread got off on your opinions of why not to use them which is ok and I agree with them but then you both left the impression that 3800 fps could not be safely done, I assure you Nosler for one watches pressure in their listed loads and if they lost any fingers as you suggested they would not print the load. Now if you'll excuse me I'm late for my reading comprehension class. (since I don't have access to a big ole smiley face just picture one here at the end)
 
BCB,

Well said......I'm sure it's all do-able, I said that and so did you. Several others have as well. Apparently this has been missed somewhere.
The argument, or debate, is "why?".

Not to correct you Tom (just read your post)...the ability of it was never really an issue, and neither I, nor BCB disputed it.

Ole........
Unless you personally have pressure test facilities at your leisure, then "published manuals" are all you have to go by, or I'd go so far as to say the "wisest choice" regarding safe reloading. That is unless you decide to disregard any "safe standards" of handloading, then by all means "reap what you sow".
P.O. Ackley liked to push the envelope too. I'm sure he's sent many a gun to the scrap heap.
My comment about McPherson is based on "fundamental" trajectory and ballistic tables..."who am I to judge"....just an average guy really, but as far as credentials, if you need some...
I've instructed firearms and ballistic's college courses for two local basic police academy's for the past 16-17yrs as a Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer until retirement in 2001. I was also the supervising officer for the sniper/observer teams for our dept. as well as several others. I was certified by the FBI through their sniper/observer academy at Niagara Falls AFB in 1997-98. A major portion of that course was the study of ballistic principles and trajectory, courtesy of Federal Ammunitions technicians teams.
I'm self taught since the age of 12, and only attended the basic police course when I first started. Apparently the "powers that be" didn't need any convincing. I obtained the certifications "as needed" to be legally positioned, as well as several armorer's courses over the years for Glock, Colt & Smith & Wesson.
"Blowing your own horn" sucks, and I hate "know it all's" as well as the next guy...but, you asked.
Do I feel I know more than the next guy ? Definitely not...but I, as you, speak my piece when I feel the need. Lively debates are good for the soul, but I don't come here to insult anyone's intelligence, nor belittle them....poking a little fun is fine, and I can take as well as give (like BCB).
I came here to offer help, as well as learn, please remember that.

chuck
For every advantage obtained, such as the extra velocity gained from the use of lighter bullets, there's a price to be paid. Pro and con.
The price paid from those lighter bullets, due to their lighter weight that got you that speed advantage in the first place, is a quicker loss of speed and energy downrange.
It's lighter weight is "both" a pro, and a con.

I gathered Nosler info to "once more" offer as some type of basis on what I said. If you choose to ignore it as "bunk", that's fine.
It's comparing the 40 & 55gr. BT's to each other using an "average" 400fps velocity displacement between the two bullet weights. Most manuals show a 300-400fps. velocity difference, but I decided to err on the side of arguement. These numbers are off of "PointBlank" software using Nosler's bullet data.

-40gr BT @ 3800fps./200yd zero/.221 BC
400yds - 2128fps./402fpe. -15.80" drop WD(10mph) 19.08"

-55gr BT @ 3400fps./200yd zero/.267 BC
400yds - 2084fps./530fpe. -18.15" drop WD(10mph) 17.46"

The only thing gained by the lighter bullet at the 400yd range was a flatter trajectory of 2.35", but at a loss of 128fpe., or 24%. Another downside is that as your 40gr. bullet sheds velocity at a faster proportional rate due to it's lighter weight, it now becomes far more susceptible to windrift.
The tradeoff is yours to judge, but in my book that's a considerable amount. The best middle ground would be a 45 or 50gr bullet I guess, but as the proponents of the 40gr.'s choose it for it's speed, I choose mine for downrange energy with less windrift.

Although noticable, the 2" difference in height at 400yds, also comes with a loss of windrift of 1.6", as well as the previously mentioned loss of energy.

Tom....
Regarding barrel length and loss of velocity..the average estimate per inch of barrel length is 24fps per inch. If you know what you're getting with a given length, and either subtract, or add those numbers, you'll get a very close estimate.
I've tried it with my chronograph and it works pretty close. I'd say you'll be within 50fps either way.


Not out to play the "flame game" with any of you guys..we all believe what we believe....if your results make you happy..stay put.

Take care,
Bob
 
Tom64:

I'm sure Nosler or any of the other bullet makers have a good hand on pressure for the loads they publish.

My point was that the average "Joe Handloader" doesn't, and some of them will be flirting with excessive pressure to make it all work. Why not just use a cartridge better designed for the purpose if 3800 FPS with a 40 grain bullet is the goal?

I'm glad we got that all worked out. Now maybe you won't have to spend your weekend running all over the country borowing stuff to prove to me somethng I already knew was possible. But probably not practical or safe for everyone to be doing.

Some of the reloading tales you can read about on the internet make you wonder what kind of handicapped computer arrangements some of those folks have. If they still have all their fingers and toes, its just because they've been extremely lucky to this point.

I have an old friend who was a "hot rod" reloader from day one. He was always proud of how much more powder he could burn and how much extra velocity he could get with "no apparent signs of pressure" until one day he blew up a perfectly good bolt action rifle playing that game.

Fortunately he came out of the situation in much better shape than the rifle did, but it was an experience I'm sure he won't ever forget. I was running a little late that day and missed the excitement, but got there soon enugh to still see the damage first hand. Seeing broken rifle parts and a bloody face and arms will make you a little more cautious in the future.

The best thing he did that day was to have on a good pair of shooting glasses that allowed his eyes to escape unharmed. A doctor with a pair of pliers to remove a couple of metal fragments from his arms handled the rest.

He never did wear hearing protection (understand he's fairly old), and today I have to talk loud to him when we talk on the telephone. That's just the kind of person he is except I know he's a little more cautious at the reloading bench today than he was 20 years ago.


I'll provide the smiley face PM has provided for me. OK? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'll even throw in an additional happy "something". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Take Care. - BCB
 
Handgunr,
Just so you know I don't intend my posts as a flame directed at anyone.
There have been alot of generalities made that I feel need a little comment.
First of all my numbers of 3200 vs. 3700 fps. Using the latest Hornady and Nosler books there are percentage wise far more loads for the 40 grain bullets at 3700 than the 55's at 3200 using 24 and 26 inch barrels. I feel my 500 fps difference is very fair though there is one 55 grain load listed at 3300 fps out of 22 and 4 out of 15 loads at 3800+ for the 40 grain bullets. I choose not to use them as what the average guy should expect.
Second my preference is for the Nosler BT as it has a thicker jacket and penetrates much better than the V-max version for bigger critters like coyotes although for woodchucks and under either is fine. So basically I'm supporting two and in particular one 40 grain bullet so I realize that if your gun doesn't like one or the other, particularly the NBT for bigger vermin there is no real choice but to move up in weight.
Your trump card is KE. I've been killing critters for a long time. My conclusion regarding the 223 is that shot placement is much more critical than KE regardless if 40 or 55 grain bullets are used. If woodchucks are gut hit most likely they will make the hole. Coyotes need a shot through the lungs, head shots are less critical, anything less and they are gone, 40 or 55. The KE of a 243 on the other hand makes a difference on marginal hits.
By your own numbers out to 400 yards the balistic advantage is in the 40's favor except with less than 2" more wind drift while still being as fast or faster at that range regardless of how fast they slow down. That using a number for the 40 that has 4 loads listed and a velocity not seen in either manual for the 55's. Hardly a case of,"because that 40gr bullet slows down so fast and blows like a feather in the wind." as Jack said.
You also stated," it's amazing how things that were always ballistic fact, have all of a sudden, as if "overnight". changed."
They haven't changed. Bullets have though. Never before have there been 40 grain bullets of a BC .200 and .221 able to hold up at extreme velocities. Apply yesterdays ballistics to todays bullets and some surprising things are possible that weren't previously.
BCB said something along the lines of high velocities from a cartridge not designed for it. The 223 has a pressure limit. Whatever velocities are acheivable within that limit fall well into its design. Light bullets take more powder to bring up to max velocities than heavier bullets but I'd like to see you burn out a 223 barrel.
I'm more about defending the better 40's from some of these generalities than sayinng they are the best/better than the heivier 50 and 55 gr. version. Though I think the NBT is without peer to 400 yards in any department, I might be biased.
Take care,
chuck
 
Chuck,

Appreciate your candor............

I think you're missing the point....the 40grs. "can't & won't" do what the 55grs do at 400yds.
"My own numbers" never indicating anything of the sort....that is unless you're only looking at part of the picture. Bullet drop.....don't know.

The "changing overnight" comment was in relation to the basic theory itself....not the BC numbers of anything used. I use Nosler's, Hornady's, and Sierra polymer tipped bullets too...I know they're more slippery than the old softpoints, but they're all "more slippery", not just the 40grs.

Look at the overall picture....yep, energy too.

Like I said earlier.....(check your book on this one) they and the 55gr's change energy numbers at (approx.) 225yds.
Use whatever lower velocity numbers you want against the 55gr. bullets to support your point...3200, 3300 or whatever.
But if your getting 3800fps from a bookload using 40grs., I can do 3300-3400 using the same makes in a 55gr., safely. Pressure is pressure...and it works for both weights.
Many of my manuals show variations between the two bullet weights as a 55gr. @ 3200, and a 40gr. @ 3500 nominally.
Don't just refer to one book in general, check them all....even the old ones /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And yes (admittedly, I said "dated" regarding my source...remember?) I use some older data, but I didn't say that it couldn't be correllated over into higher BC numbers....although the newer bullets have a higher ballistic coefficent (both Nosler 40& 55gr's), their numbers can be calculated accordingly.

Another thing, don't rely on that old "rightious crutch" regarding the "shot placement" thing...I think we're all on the same page of music regarding that one.
I believe everyone here assumes that you're going to do your part when it comes to putting your shot where it counts.

Besides that, if accuracy and shot placement is part of your point, very rarely do you get the best accuracy at maximum velocities anyway.
Well, what is it ?....since "shot placement" is what you're speaking about, are you gonna load for accuracy, or maximum energy from that 40gr. bullet. Most of the time, you can't have both....but in rare instances you might. Any edge that the 40gr. might have, could very well be lost if accuracy was your main goal.

Sierra always comments about this in their manuals, and even lists both loads in their data.
Your only claim to fame is what your bullet can do at maximum velocities, not what velocity it's travelling at when you've reached the most accurate load in your gun.
Yep, that too works both ways, but I've got a little insurance policy regarding more weight.

Previously speaking numbers for the sake of arguement, the difference of 2" at 400yds, is a hiccup, or good fart while squeezing the shot off.

When you mentioned about the 40gr. bullet being "as fast, or faster" at 400yds., yes, you're right, it is......
BUT, it needs to be A LOT faster, not just "as fast, or faster".
Based on it's BC, partially due to it's lighter weight, it can't compete at those ranges unless it's travelling well beyond the 55gr's speed.
It has to make up in speed for the difference (15grs.) in weight to be equal.
Your bullet hits a little higher, mine hits harder...how's that for an admission ?

We can continue this forever....you can have the last word, how's that................?

I agree to disagree.......

Take care,
Bob
 
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