Is a 223 Rem/40Vmax/3800 fps possible ?

...well....I haven't seen or shot all of the .223's in the world....but..I have shot mine and a couple of my sons' .223's.

I loaded moly-coated Sierra 40 HP's over 29.5 grains of Accurate 2230, Win SR primer, Win brass. We fired them from a 24" barrelled Savage Tactical. The 5-shot chronographed average speed was ...3842 FPS. One round in the string chronied 3900.


Was this chronograph wrong??? I don't know. We trust it for all of our chronograph tests, and it seems to be okay. Another rifle fired the same rounds at virtually the same FPS.

Sometimes people get the idea that if they themselves cannot do something, then it just can't be done. Just because I can't run a 4-minute mile doesn't mean it's impossible.
 
There is so much difference between different chambers and different barrels, there is no correct answer. Sure with an oversize chamber and a fast barrel it is possible. Should you expect it, no way.

Jack
 
I think they should get a 22-250 or 220 swift if they want to see 3800 + and quit playing with bombs. It'll catch up to them who are trying it or doing it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
For what it's worth,

I gotta agree with Jack on this one......after a good 35yrs. of loading, and most of it with the .223, I've gotta say, "yep, more than likely it's possible", but it'll be well beyond normal acceptable safe pressures for the cartridge.
Compiling several of my load manuals, it appears that the maximum's run around 3500-3650 for the .223 w/ a 40gr. bullet. Admittedly, these are with different guns, and various bullet makes, but it does give a relatively decent average.
.22-250's, or the .220 Swifts can reach those numbers easily, and safely. Why try it with a .223 ?
What little you'd gain in performance wouldn't be anywhere near worth the risk.

Sticky extraction, and flattened primer's are good "rule of thumb" methods of telling when you're encroaching on a maximum load, but measuring the case web with a good micrometer is far more sensitive and accurate regarding such. This method will tell you much earlier, and more precisely when maximum's are getting close.

If you've ever had a (hot) cartridge rupture near it's base, blowing the floorplate and ammo out of the magazine, and locking the bolt up in the process, it'll change the way you look at hotrodding anything regarding handloads.

I started into handloading and casting bullets back when I was 11-12yrs. old, and thank god I had a tutor (uncle) that err'd on the side of safety when I started.

Even doing things "on the safe side", although rarely, sh*t still happens, so why up the percentages ?

Food for thought........

Take care,
Bob
 
I definitely agree with Handgunr's and other's comments concerning why do it in the first place. If you have a real need to drive a 40 grain bullet at 3800 FPS, choose a suitable cartridge that will do it with reasonable safety. In the .224" bore diameter, there are several other better choices.

The internet is full of load recipes that exceed some reloading manual's max by 1.5 grains (pick a number), but " I'm seeing absolutely no signs of excessive pressure", so it must be safe. In reality, it will be entirely safe until a weak link in the whole process - primer, cartridge case, etc. - lets loose, and then the person quickly finds out that what they have been playing with is a time bomb six inches in front of their face.

In addition, why shoot a 40 grain bullet that has a tremendous muzzle velocity that quickly dies between two and three hundred yards when a heavier bullet at less muzzle velocity keeps on trucking at the longer disances? To me, shooting a 40 gran bullet in a 223 Rem case for long range purposes is like shooting a wad of paper in a sling shot. It goes like Hell for awhile, but then it looses all useful velocity and trajectory very quickly versus a heavier, slower, better BC bullet.

When the 204 Ruger came along a couple of years go, I chuckled at the advertising that touted the 32 grain bullet at 4K+ FPS. I had shot a Tac 20 for quite a few years before the 204 Ruger came along, and I quickly learned if you want to kill PD's or something else at long ranges, use a heavier bullet that has a much better long range trajectory (better BC) and give up a little muzzle velocity. You'll be a lot better off in the long run. (No pun intended)

Well, enough ranting for today. I'll get out of the way and let ya'll fill me in on where I'm all wet. In the meantime, I'll just keep giving up a little muzzle velocity and shoot better BC bullets that will do the same job better without "rocket ship" statistics 15 feet in front of my rifle. And I'll do it at reasonable pressures for the cartridge case. If I can't, I'll find a bettter cartridge case to achieve the same result.

My face isn't pretty, but I like it arranged they way it is. - BCB
 
Don't get me wrong...

There is a place for the 40gr.'s in the .22 CF's, and in my opinion, it's better served in the .218Bee, .22 Hornet, and even up into the .221 Fireball.
Can it be used in larger rounds ?....sure can, but in comparison to the 50-55grs. you're not losing a thing really, and gaining more downrange energy through momentum from bullet weight.
Yeah, you can argue that it's an inch up or down here & there, but with a fairly flat shooting round like the .223, or better yet, the .22-250 & the 220 Swift, it matters little, and it's almost negligible.

At a nominal velocity of 3500 fps. out of my .22-250 using 55gr. VMax's, my shots are stopping inside of just about everything I'm shooting at beyond 100yds.
I've shot chucks in the head, as well as foxes, that stopped inside with no exits.

I'm using the same bullet in my .223 loads at 3200-3300fps and getting the same results.
In the .223 my self imposed lightest bullet I've used is the 50gr VMax's.

I'm not chastizing the 40's, they have a place there, as does everything else.
I even bought a box for my .22 Super Jet to work loads in. But, the Super Jet is running 3000-3300fps (reportedly)., and it's intended use is for a maximum range of 200yds.
Mostly woods, and woods edge hunting. If I'm going to the open fields, I'll be carrying the .22-250, and possibly the .223.

If it's velocity you're really after though, Hornady makes a 35gr VMax??????........just kidding...


Take care,
Bob
 
Nor was I badmouthing 40 grain bullets, per se. I shoot lots of them in my 221 FB where a 55 grain bullet can't be pushed with ENOUGH velocity to be truly effective.

All .224" bullets will obviously shoot in all .224" cartridge cases. A specific weight of bullet just works better in some cartridge cases than it does in others, both in safety and in efficiency. - BCB
 
Where to start??

Go find a copy of the Nov 2000 issue of "The Accurate Rifle" and turn to page 65, you will find an article by M.L. McPherson(you've heard of him right?) in which he uses a Savage 12BVSS-S in 22/250 and compares the 40 Nosler BT against the 55 Nosler BT in bullet path and wind drift and velocity of course. The 40 Noslers wins hands down! Read the article and learn something new.

I said earlier in this string that a .223 will push a 40 Nosler over 3800 easy, very easy. Now I'm not talking about a garden variety factory .223. Like Jack said earlier, tight chamber, long enough barrel and a fast one. Would I shoot them all the time, I doubt it, but it'd do-able, at least in my rifle and I've talked to other guys with custom barrels and they are doing it to.

If I use these same cases with the same powder and primer I can push 50 Noslers over 3700 pretty easy. 55 Noslers can hit 3600!

I use an Oehler 35P set at 10' from the muzzle.
 
The faster twist than normal HD was speaking of will help in the 3800 quest. Hey, it you see no pressure signs and it has not blown up, by all means use it. I agree with Jack on the all rifles are different. Lots of variables on this question. My stand is I don't think it is a norm and I would not shoot alot of them.
 
that is one bada$$ rifle ya got there. not really a need for a 22-250 in your case. good luck and i hope it lasts ya a lifetime.
 
Since the original post didn't mention whether the gun was a standard "off the shelf" make, or a specialized, custom built gun, I guess this leaves it up in the air a little.

Basing the query on a standard everyday rifle (which I think most would've assumed), on which my opinion is based, it isn't a safe load by acceptable safe standards.

Can it be done in a custom gun ?....I'm sure,....but my question to that would be "not if it could be done", but "why" ? Especially when safety "could" be an issue, and there's several other calibers that can do it safely. 3800fps using a 40gr. bullet would be of no benefit.

Ole,
Not to flame you or nothing, but based on what you mentioned regarding the "McPherson article", he's full of hot air.....period.
Here's some numbers straight off my Sierra software;

40gr bullet...
3800fps muzzle velocity....1282fpe.
300yds......351fpe.....-17.12" bullet drop.

55gr bullet...
3600 muzzle velocity....1582fpe.
300yds.....690fpe.....-16.05" bullet drop.

Almost double the energy at 300yds, 200fps. slower at the muzzle, and a little more than 1" less drop at 300yds.

Ballistically, the 40gr bullet would have to be pushed between 4100-4200fps. to match the 55gr. bullet's muzzle energy at 3600fps. That being said, the 40gr. bullet's downrange 300yd. energy, even at 4200fps., would still be only 444fpe., in comparison to 690fpe. for the 55 gr. bullet at 3600fps.

Since it's weight is lighter, even at a higher velocity, it sheds it's speed faster due to it's lighter weight based on wind resistance against that lighter weight. The reason for it's greater bullet drop.
Although it's lighter weight is a "pro" regarding initial muzzle velocity in certain cases, it's a "con" to it's downrange energy & ballistics in most instances.

For both the 55gr. bullet, and the 40 gr. bullet (at 3800fps) to have the same energy at the "mentioned" 300yds, the 55gr. bullet would only need a muzzle velocity of 2900-3000 fps.
In comparison to the 40gr's bullet having a muzzle energy of 1282fpe. at 3800fps, the 55gr. bullet would only have a muzzle energy of 1026-1095 at that lesser speed, but it would carry that energy much farther than the 40gr. bullet due to it's heavier weight....i.e., more momentum.

Somewhere at about 215yds., energy wise, those two bullets, at those grossly different velocities (40gr/3800 & 55gr. 2900) would change hands and the 55gr. carries it's energy further, although at it's much lower velocity the drop would be 25", or so.
Putting them in the 40gr/3800fps., and the 55gr/3600fps. perspective, approximating what you mentioned, the 55gr. bullet stomps all over the 40gr. bullet from the muzzle on out. No comparsion.....
No offense, but I'd rather "err" on the side of published ballistic charts, than Mr. McPherson's findings.

Like I said.....for the two bullet weights to even be remotely competitive, the 40gr. bullet would have to be doing at least 4100-4200 fps, which out of the Swift, it can be.

Now, using Sierra's maximum listed velocities for strictly the .223, comparing the 40 & 55 gr. bullets, the 40gr. at 3500fps. and the 55gr. at 3200fps.

40gr......1088fpe muzzle./ -20.14" @ 300yds + 289fpe.

55gr......1250fpe muzzle./ -20.52" @ 300yds + 526fpe.

Energy is almost double, and you'll never see a difference in drop. No matter how hard you "hotrod" the 40gr. in the .223, or even remotely how unbelievably it can be pushed, the 55gr. bullet can best it at several hundred feet per second less.

To make the two bullets even remotely competitive at all, the question would have to be " Is a 223 Rem/40Vmax/4000+ fps possible ??"
The simple answer is definitely not......


Off topic........is it me, or does anyone think (based on their photos) that Rem. Shooter & GuNut are huntin' buddies ? LOL

Take care,
Bob
 
Dang it, Handgunr, now you've done it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Introducing facts to support your point of view is not an acceptable way to settle an otherwise emotional "Yes I Can - No You Can't" internet debate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

At least it now looks like the topic might switch to a more logical "Why Would You Want To Do It, Anyway?" debate.

OT: I just think Gunnut & Rem Shooter buy their garage doors or window covers from the same garage door/window cover salesman in New Mexico. I might be wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Good post. - BCB

PS - Isn't M. L. McPherson the same dude who about every four years updates component and reloading equipment prices in the "Ladies Home Journal Guide to Metallic Cartridge Reloading" - or a title something like that?
 

BCB.......you've got me laughin' now.....didn't think about the garage door salesman......HAHAHA.....or the
"Ladies Home Journal to Metallic Cartridge Reloading"...that one got me chokin''''

Well, didn't mean to interject fact's into an otherwise opinion based debate...and I did agree that "it could probably be done" answering the original question. I just added the addendum......"but why?"
Tossing in the facts to support the "why" thing ......

Kinda like...."can I take a dump in the middle of Main St.?"
or...."can I smoke my cigar while handling gun powder ?"....all "yeah, but why?" kinda questions. One question almost automatically generates another in response...

From the looks of it though.....I want to be a garage door salesman in New Mexico..........;)


Take care,
Bob
 
Handgunr:

I agree with you on the "it can be done" part.

The question that kept running through my mind was, "Is there any one day of the week that is best to try to blow off all your fingers and toes, or does it really matter?" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Well, I gotta' go. I'm trying to get my 22 Hornet loaded up to 7MM Rem Mag ballistics, and I have some testing to do.
I'll post results as soon as I get home from the range and the Emergency Medical Clinic.

Deer season is opening around here, and sometimes the lines at the EMC are real long this time of year. So it might be a late night report. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- BCB
 
...makes me ponder the question...

......17 cal pellet from my Crossman....is 4000fps. possible ?
.....hmmmmm, maybe I can hook it to my compressor, something like a punkin cannon......hmmmmmm.

Just funnin'.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

Bob
 
Now for a little reality. The Muzzle Velocity between 40 and 55 grain bullets averages 500 fps in the Nosler and Hornady manuals.

Lets try this again using 3700 vs. 3200 MV and a 200 yard zero.

Bullet 400 yard drop remaining vel. KE
40 gr V-Max.......-18.7........1864.............309
40 gr. Nosler BT..-17.3........1889
55 gr. V max......-21.5........1842.............414
 
chuck,

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gifIf we keep this one spinning long enough, maybe it'll take off on it's own like a tornado ?????

Reality......?

Again......based on your figures...(and again, I got my data from Sierra's 4th Edition Exterior Ballistic Tables...a little dated, but still factual)

40gr. bullet at 3700fps. and 200yd. zero
...400yd remaining vel/energy - 1512 fps + 203fpe
...Bullet drop @ 400yds - 23.91 inches.

55gr. bullet at 3200fps and 200yd. zero
...400yd remaining vel/energy - 1763 fps + 379fpe.
...Bullet drop @ 400yds - 23.11 inches.

If you're pulling your data from Nosler, or Hornady charts based on VMax or BT bullet configurations, you're numbers should be slightly better than mine. They seem to be "as expected" in the energy area, but the 400yd velocity for the 40gr. bullets, don't correlate to their starting velocities at all, even with better BC numbers.
Although differences in BT, or polymer tip design lend themselves to better a ballistic coefficient, the velocity differences, although slightly better, would be minor in comparison, and should correspond between a 40gr. VMax, and a 55gr VMax.

However you slice it, 40gr. bullets, even at higher velocities, due to their lighter weight, will shed velocity quicker and, although slight, "pound for pound" they will drop quicker. Especially at the ranges you related to.

Although newer powders have generated higher velocities in several calibers, the 40gr. bullet's best venue is in the lighter caliber's where it was intended. On reason why you see so few configurations offered. It's best area is as a shorter range bullet.
Think of it this way....if the 40gr. VMax is better, then the 35gr. VMax.....is that better still ?

Back a few posts ago Jack stated something about a "feather in the wind". Well I might not go that far, but with it's lighter weight, it can't "carry" it's velocity like a heavier bullet, and loses any edge it may have had rather quickly. Especially at the longer ranges.

It's only edge, if at all, is within 200yds. After that it's pretty much a moot point.

Take care,
Bob
 
Before someone surgically removes the heart from this one, could we get a third opinion, please?

Why is it that light bullets naturally shed velocity faster than heavier bullets and they fall quicker in trajectory at long ranges, except that, "In my rifle it doesn't work that way? My rifle is special." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Oh well. At least I still have all my fingers and toes and haven't spent any late nights trying to super glue my trusty varmint rig back into working order.

Enjoy the 40's at 6000 FPS in your 223 Rems. If you can just figure out how to do it, it will be really useful on those extra fast coyotes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

YOWEE!, ZAP!, WHACK!, DRT!, etc. - BCB /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
BCB......

After 35yrs, it's amazing how things that were always ballistic fact, have all of a sudden, as if "overnight". changed.

Dead horse............

Bob
 
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