When Breeding or Buying......

I was hoping that some of these other guys would chim in and tell us what they have in there dogs. There is alot of guys putting puppies on the ground and I would assume they have an Idea in mind of what they are breeding for not just breeding every B!tch that comes in heat.
The biggest thing for me was prey drive and I have never seen a cur that has prey drive like a Terrier, the only problem with the Terrier is that they have a hard time turning it off and the cur turns it off to fast.So I started crossing them, well that didn't work, I had a dog that was like a cur with a short fuss. And I still wasn't getting the nose I wanted. I have had terriers that could turn it off when needed but they are few and far between. The Terrier had just about the right amount of nose for what I wanted so I based my breeding on that but started to breed out a little of the prey drive. I was getting the kind of dog I was wanting but I was not getting the size I wanted and the nose was still a litte week.
I beleive I am where I want to be now. My problem is I still want or need the smaller Physco dog for denning. Which the bigger dog will not do as good a job that time of year.
With the High prey drive, I get more range. I have bred so it is natural for them to use there nose, not a learned trait. And once they have seen it done,or how it works they get it and they are working with me instead of for them selves. I have a problem with a dog that just hunts for himself. And it will not stay with me long, which is a fine line to walk with alot of prey drive.lol
I feel a lazy dog does not get the attention from the coyote like a very busy dog does and they will see a busy dog from futher away and may not be as scared to investigate and engage it.
In some areas and times of the year I feel size(bigger)is a problem and see that they will not engage the larger dog as quickly as they will the smaller dog. Also age of the coyote.
Color is a big problem in my area, I feel. We have alot of gaurd dogs and they do not engage the lighter colored dogs as well if in these areas.
As you can see, for me there is alot more to breeding a coyote dog than getting one to bite or even kill a coyote. That is the least of my worries. I could get the dog in the picture above to bark at a coyote in a trap or one that has been wounded. I want one that will track a coyote to a den and bring him back or go to a howl and bring it back, or one that is so busy looking for a coyote that when one slips in and sees him he comes hard to him, not leary because he is laying under a bush or sitting beside me.
I want one that hunts just as hard the first ten minutes as he does the last ten minutes of a 12 hours day.
And he has to have enough brains to figure out the game we are playing. Handle is a must. If I want him to hunt hard, he must if I want him to turn it off, he must.
Lets hear what you want.
 
I almost to the point where I am okay with running coyotes all the time. Devin have you bred some dogs that you think would be able to be a all around dog like that. If so I would be interested in trying some of them.
 
Not a breeder, but a buyer.

Wanted - 30-35lb female, Must be quick/agile and tall enough to see over grass and not taller than a coyote.

Must be easy to train general commands. Return to the tone and such.

Must get along with other dogs and kill house cats and armadillos when they get in my yard.

Needs to bay wounded game and a good enough nose to find dead animals shot an hour or two earlier.

Enough drive to stay busy till I’m done hunting.

Needs to go to barks and howls.

Would really like a dog that would locate on dead game till I got there. Use to have one, but he’s dead now. Then again, I would want the same dog to engage the 2nd or 3rd coyote and not just stay with the first dead one.

I don’t get to go all day, or every day. So this dog must be able to cool out and just be an around the house dog till we load up to go. I have 2 acre fenced in yard and the dogs have the run of it.

Don’t hunt much during the denning season, or there would be more must’s on my list.

Yall stay after them
Kelly
 
Some of the thing I look for in in a decoy dog is a larger chest for bigger lungs. I want a smaller 40 to 50lbs that is muscler with good bone structure.I want dark pigment arround there eyes and on there feet.I want there pads on there feet to be tight.I want a dog that will listen and is smarter then the game I am chasing.I had a litter of pups 2 years ago that I had bread for decoying they all turned out good and did there jobs.The hunters that used there dogs on pigs also are all wanting me to bread again as there dogs are all dead. Can they have 2 much drive or desire to get game I am not sure mine have what I want and I think if I would have kept these pups they would still be here maybe not but I know that a 100 to 200lbs hog will take out dogs thats a fact.I have taught Belle to bay and not to grab pigs and she knows what her job is.And I think thats were the brains come in or trainablity. I want a dog that will except training
 
Nice wright up Devin. For the sake of the conversation, and to keep it on track, i have a bunch of questions to ask you, lol.

Obviously you dont want to share all the nitty gritty details, and i dont blame you a bit, but try to play along as much as you can.

1- How many crosses have you made, just to get a pup or two with the sole purpose being to breed back to another pup out of a different cross, also bread for certain carictoristics?

you deffinatly have a perticular type of dog in mind here, and i dont believe that you are going to get that out of a cross between two pure bred dogs.

2- How long did it take you to figure out what it takes to make (your) perfect dog?

3- How many crosses have you made to deem compleatly useless for you?

4- Do you have your breeding where you want it, and are happy with them now?

5- If your answer for number 4 is "yes." then how many generations into your breeding program are you? Also, do you plan on making enough crosses to where you dont have to cross bread any more, and i guess technicly creat your own breed. I know for you to register a new breed, you need to be 6 Generations into the breed, and if you do the math, with out inbreeding, that comes out to allot of dang dogs and puppies! lol.

6- Out of all the charictorists you listed, which has been the hardest/easiest to breed into them? Color, grit, range, nose..........?

This may seem like an interigation, but its not, i just really enjoy this type of conversation, and want to see the good info keep rolling in!

This is not just a question for Devin, its for everyone. I addressed it towards Devin, because so far, He has went into more detail than anyone else, so im trying to keep him going.

Im not sure if "lets hear what you want" was directed towards me, or just general. I obviously dont have decoy dogs, but if you would like to hear a more detailed breakdown of what i do with my hounds, tell me so, and i will let ya have it! lol. But i dont wanna cloud up yall's decoyin thread with my dumb old fox hounds.
 
This thread is bringing to light the differences that we have for what each of us want from our dogs.

Take a second & draw a comparison to a basic treeing hound. Most are more familiar, so follow along.

Some simply want a 'pleasure' dog that'll tree him some coon a few nights a week. Maybe a colder nosed dog that'll grub out a track & put one up after a nice open trail for the owner to enjoy listening to in the dark...

Some may want a high powered 'competition' type hound to compete with. One with a relatively hot nose, fast track ability & 100BPM chop on the tree. An unmistakeable 'locate' that is easy to call, or whatever else makes a winning comp hound...

Some that are gov't hunters or guides need a tough as nails hound that will work day in, day out. Although it could be, this dog may not be a loud, fast or pretty. But it'll get the job done, take a lickin' & keep on tickin'. Possibly a smaller built dog with great feet, great endurance, etc.

These are all generalities, but I hope you get the point...

That's about where I see we are with this discussion. What works for one guy may not 'fit' into anyone else's idea for what they want. And it also eludes to the fact that a 'hardcore' bred dog from a gov't hunter, or a competition bred hound may not be the best fit for a weekend dogman to enjoy. Same as a gov't hunter might cull a dog that would otherwise make a recreational hunter very happy.

Same goes for these 'decoy' dogs we're discussing. As an example, Devin mentioned denning.
I don't den, there's no need for me to do so. I want as many coyotes as possible to grow up so I can kill them when they are adults!
laugh.gif

But a gov't hunter that is employed to eradicate coyotes will need that extra ability in his dog to find a den & get that job done. His dog must be capable, where my dog doesn't need that ability. Not better, or worse, just different...

Whatever you want your dog to do is up to you, and learning what that is along the way has been my limited experience so far. Guys like Cat Daddy (and others) have been a great help to me by offering feedback & sharing knowledge in a way that has allowed me to figure out for myself what I might want from my pup. And more importantly, how that might work HERE as opposed to another part of the country. For that, I'm thankful!

And as I mentioned earlier, what I want from my pup has changed from when I first got him last year. That is part to do with good info, and partly to do with what I think my dog is good at and where he needs work. Never ending learning experience & it's been a fun ride so far...

Interesting discussion, I'm enjoying it!
 
Originally Posted By: Devin69Ok So what I am getting from all of you is you want a family dog........Come on guys, all these dogs are going to be great family dogs and great companions. You know that as well as I do. I use mine as tools and are treated as such but I gaurantee that I could put anyone of my dogs in your homes and they would be great family dogs and companion dogs. Tony is picking up on this also and is pushing it in his ad he just posted.lol I would bet to say that any dog you pick up is going to be a great family dog and companion dog. I would be leary of the Pit Tony and a few Okkies are breeding into it, but that is another debate.
Kind of funny how this post is kind of the oppistie of what I expected...I expected the guys just getting into the doggin to come up with the lame responces and the guys breeding to come up with the good ones. Just the oppisite.
And yes Tony it was brought up before but never did take off because nobody would decribe anything in detail.
So.................
Most everyone has talked about Range.
What is a good range?
Most have said they want a Med. Nose. Why?
Most have wanted alot of grit. Why?
I know everyone hunts different, maybe explain how you hunt or what you use your dog for.
Is it just for tolling?
or decoy ?
or recovery, ?
or trapline?
Or all of the above?
Can you have one dog for all or do you think you need a different dog for different tasks?
I like the fact that even though you can't hunt all the time you are using your dog for different things. I like to see the different game that you are switching over on. Lets hear about that.
Good posts guys. Tony come on step up. Drop the sales pitch and lets BS about dogs.


I hunt and den DD's, Jagds and curs. I use the dogs as a tool but they better behave at home, in the truck, or at a hotel as I travel alot and spend lots of time living out of the truck or cheap hotel rooms while hunting. As for behavior and living around them, Most of the things I want I can put there or take away if needed. A steady tempered hand and continuity and repeated training are all that is needed. In hunting drive it is exactly opposite. If it's not there to start all the training and exposure in the world is not going to get you there. Especially with terriers.

So here it goes for my personal wants list:

Range...I want the dog to be comfortable and able to work whatever range is needed. If they are hutning here in N. MN where cover is thick and views are limited they have to work much tighter than they would in E. MT and the great big open. The dogs have to know what to work and work all cover from A-Z as they will find themselves hunting from the SW to the plains states to MN. I don't get hung up on numbers or exact distances as that is a variable I can't control. I want a dog to check back in at least every 15 minutes.

Nose.... I like to have a variety of dogs that have noses from slightly cold to hot. I don't want them running week old tracks but they have to be able to track coyotes on drags after a 3 day check across snow and ice. I also want a dog that can be dropped on a wounded coyote track the next day and have a chance of finding it. I have found that the more exposure you give a dog to tracking the better they understand how and when to use their nose. Brains, nose and desire to complete a track all play a big part in this.

Grit... Is tricky. I generally want more as I believe it is easier to take some away vs. putting it in. I want a dog that can hold a coyote. They don't have to be latched on but if one dog is the other better be helping out and not just watching. Once again a brains/ desire thing.

Hunting...I want dogs that will hunt whatever I put them on. I am an equal oppurtunity hunter. I go from hunting birds one day to hunting fur the next. If I'm bird hunting and we jump a coon or coyote I want dogs that will know when to change up. If we are driving between trap locations and we see a bunch of birds in the ditch I want a dog I can drop out of the back and will put birds in the air and trail cripples. I ask alot out of my dogs but they get a ton of different exp. and adapt.


Add to all this at least for the curs, that they better be able to at least help in working cattle or stock.

I know it sounds like a lot but these dogs are truely capable of much more then we utilize them for. Good breeding goes along way. I'm a hunter and a user of dogs and not a breeder. I guess it boils down to having what they need for desire and brains and then just pouring on the exp. The vast majority of dogs I've had and dogs I've seen that come from exp. breeders who are also hunters have had what it takes to do the job. Their shortcommings are almost always from poor breeding or poor handling and lack of exposure. 1-2 coyotes a week or 1-2 birds a week won't cut it. For the first few years you have to insure that they have a constant stream of exp. both positive, game plentiful areas, and negative, areas lacking good game populations. This will teach the dog what is expected from him and set in stone the regiment they are to expect in the future. It will also teach the dogs to hunt and not just wait for a coyote or bird or whatever to just pop into their lap.

I hope I didn't put anyone to sleep.

Tim

Tim
 
Ok first off, I got a bunch of pm's and calls wanting pups. I am not selling any pups and am not planning on selling any ever. I will explain later.
Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey2- How long did it take you to figure out what it takes to make (your) perfect dog?

It has taken a long time. Like I said I ran curs for a little over 10 years and it took me that long ot figure out that there was just something missing in them.
It has taken almost 5 years after that to get were I am now and I am no where near perfect.

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey3- How many crosses have you made to deem compleatly useless for you?

A bunch. I am putting at least 3 litters a year on the ground, at least. Most of them are tested right here and some of my close freinds. They are never bred agian unless they prove themselves. Period.

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey4- Do you have your breeding where you want it, and are happy with them now?

5- If your answer for number 4 is "yes." then how many generations into your breeding program are you? Also, do you plan on making enough crosses to where you dont have to cross bread any more, and i guess technicly creat your own breed. I know for you to register a new breed, you need to be 6 Generations into the breed, and if you do the math, with out inbreeding, that comes out to allot of dang dogs and puppies! lol.

No but I am real close. I am happier than I have ever been with any cross or crosses I have seen.
I am on my 6th generation of offspring now from what I concider my foundation stock. I do not plan on ever registering them.
I am to the point where I don't have to cross breed anymore.I can now start to line breed. I am 3 different lines and can cross back and forth on them now.
I feed a little over 50# of dog food a day but I have narrowed down on the dogs now because I am to a place where I can and can start to line breed.

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey6- Out of all the charictorists you listed, which has been the hardest/easiest to breed into them? Color, grit, range, nose..........?


This is not that simple of a question. Easiest is color and really not that important to me, I am dealing with a black color gene and that is usualy what you get. I think Grit and Range fall under the prey drive and I had that I just needed to adjust it to my liking. Nose and the prey drive was the hardest to put together and make a nice combo.
Many guys breed Pit or mastiff into there dogs to get grit but loose the hunt in the offspring, a pit was bred for fighting not hunting. Hog hunters use pits as catch dogs and that is what they are good for not hunting. That is why I chose the Terrier as a foundation. I had prey drive, Hunt, and still had a nose in the right breeding.

I don't believe there is a perfect dog, and I believe those that say they have the perfect dogs either have very low standards or they have no clue what a good dog is.JMO

Fred the den dogs are completly different than my decoy dogs, the decoy dogs cannot fit into the dens like the denning dogs, they are to big.
I want my dogs wound up as tight as a Crack Whore when hunting and able to come in the house and lay down and be like a 20 year old basset hound and let the kids climb all over them when I am not hunting.

Great posts guys, I hope you keep it up. This is just meant to be a BS session and is no way to tell you that my dogs are better than yours or yours are better than mine.
I do hope it may help someone looking for a pup or a dog maybe save them time ,frusteration ,money and greif.
 
I've been trying to get a bunch of chores done and just now catching back up with this thread. Some dang good conversation going on here! What you just posted, Devin, is some of the best stuff I've seen. It was a pleasure to read, as it sounds just like you do on the phone. Good dog conversation without the ribbing. I like it!

Thanks...Tony
 
Originally Posted By: DevinFred the den dogs are completly different than my decoy dogs, the decoy dogs cannot fit into the dens like the denning dogs, they are to big.

Gotcha. So the decoy dog has the nose to backtrail, then the pocket dogs go to ground? Or do the pocket dogs have the nose to backtrail & find the den themselves?

I'm asking because my pup has a dab of redbone that was originally bred into a line of curs that an ADC guy uses on coyotes. Is it safe to assume he did that to add some more nose for the backtrailing part of work?

I know you can't answer that last one for certain, but I'm curious as to who does what in the dogs you run. And thanks for the info...
 


Fred the den dogs are completly different than my decoy dogs, the decoy dogs cannot fit into the dens like the denning dogs, they are to big.
I want my dogs wound up as tight as a Crack Whore when hunting and able to come in the house and lay down and be like a 20 year old basset hound and let the kids climb all over them when I am not hunting.

devin are you obtaining this with a jagd base for the terrier side? out of curiosity what size of dog are you denning with?
 
Thanks for sharing Devin. This is the kind of conversations that hooked me to this forum 3 years ago. We have lost this over the last year or so. For a while it was just one big pissin contest on here. I think we are all partially responsible for that.

I say lets keep this up and have some good usefull knowledge flowing.

Devin, i have always said you and Poser ate great for starting a good thread, and you have done it again.

P.S. my dogs are perfect, and they are better than yours!!! Haha, kidding.
 
I couldn't of said it better Jesse...especially the "my dogs are perfect, and they are better than yours!!!"
lol.gif


I'll share more of my thoughts on dogs, when I get some free time. Family night tonight.

Tony
 
I got my dog, Putt-Putt from Duane this past February, and it's been too darned HOT to hunt him here in Arizona.

I'll chime back in on this thread around November or December after it cools down and Putt & I spend some real time in the field calling.

PUTT1.jpg


PUTT2.jpg
 
It's neat to see the different calling/hunting styles and the dog requirements for them. That's the joy of a worldwide talk forum. I run pretty darn hard, when calling. I wear most guys out, calling from sunrise to sunrise, some days. I've never had one of my dogs quit on me, but then again, my style of hunting is alot different than others, like Devin. When he mentioned hunting off of mules, I got the picture of major canyons, many miles. That's TOTALLY different than how I do it here. I drive from stand to stand and walk in anywhere from 0 to 500 yards. I don't get many canyons or big valleys, what I call is mostly flat, wide open country or brush sandhills. Coyotes can come from any direction and show up on the scene. Rarely is there a target valley that I am expecting the dogs to work and spot coyotes coming from a long distance.

I can see Devin's points about using Terrier as base blood. My Dixie dog (jagd/mt cur) that I bought from him is a true fireball on stand. She can't sit still for a minute and is ranging out 50-200 yards out and working hard for an anticipated coyote. Coyotes flat hate her and I think it's a combination of her darker coloration and that she makes herself an easy target. That's her pluses. Her minuses, she is a spaz...all the time. I don't take her with clients very often, as she bounces around the hunting rig like a bottlerocket that you pulled off of the stick. I only bring her when I have a hunter who is absolutely in love with the dogs. Most don't want a dog all over them.

Tony
 
This has been a really good read.

The dog that I got to use as a decoy dog, has been for the most part a great dog for what I use him for. He does not range out into the next county, he stays fairly close and has chased a coyote a time or two more than a few hundred yards(500-600) but once he turned, the coyotes have been close behind him. He may not be the most aggressive dog and I doubt that he would ever kill a coyote on his own, but as I see it....that's my job, that's why I carry a gun to every stand with me, not as an ornament.

As far as his nose, I would say mostly hot, he has no problem with chasing a coyote or finding one once we shoot one and they bolt off. He has on more than several occasions, smelled a coyote way before I ever seen them, and took off to engage them. I thought he was just chasing a rabbit, until I started paying more attention to him and his tendencies.

I am not looking at making any "puppy mills", I barely have enuff time for my wife and kids and my two dogs. I help coach my sons football, baseball and basketball teams. So I don't spend countless hours in the woods like some others do.

I am anxiously awaiting more replus to this thread.
I have been asked if I was wanting to breed my male, but I don't know that he is ready. He may just not be what I want in a dog much less anybody else.

Devin has made some really good posts over the years, and always entertaining comments.....

As far as Tonys followers?, are you referring to those of us that post on his threads? If you are, maybe your onto something. I have stated before that I wish more people would post some of their stories and stands for the rest of us to learn from. I enjoy reading alot of Tonys posts because he is actually hunting while I am working, so maybe I'm just jealous.? I have seen some of your Bear threads Devin, and I have enjoyed them.

I am not the best hunter in the woods, but I do enjoy myself when I am out there. My dog does not ride in the front with me, he rides in the back, in his dog box.
While on stand, if I see a coyote that Tug doesnt see, I ask him "where they at?", he will immediately start scanning the area and once locked on, he will not turn his head away until I cast them out after them. Then it's game on.
 
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Devin,

I know I said I wouldn't do it, but, are you sure that pic isn't an ad for a decoy puppy mill? LOL

Joking aside, great topic. I'm back to learning, just like the old days. Thanks everyone.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleCKDevin,

I know I said I wouldn't do it, but, are you sure that pic isn't an ad for a decoy puppy mill? LOL

lol/ The last pups I sold on here over a year ago, cost me over $1,500 to deleiver them. Mark my words. I will never sell a pup on here agian. Just breeding now for my and my sons use. If you see one that way with a Anvil on it's side, it was stolen.
 
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