Originally Posted By: Jeepdude1987I see a lot of folks that are giving Salmo a lot of heck for have an opinion different then theirs. I didn't realize that joining PM meant we had to give up free will or our right to an opinion. Folks come around and give a lot of flack to folks who want a discussion. I think that if people don't want to have a discussion they can keep there opinion and go the [beeep] away!
Salmo: It seems that your sniping coyotes like they have a gun to a hostage's head almost. I would love to be able to have the patience and skill to make those shots consistently.
I think what you've said about animals getting shot and going off to bleed to death in a few minutes or so being a lethal wound not a kill is a bit extreme personally. But, I saw no inflammatory, rude or insulting remarks. Guys on here have a tendency to take a thought out response as having a condescending tone in my experience. Sometimes, people (even I) get a bit insulted when we hear something different than our opinion, and even worse is if we misunderstand what was said.
All that being said I think hunting is killing, and killing is killing weather it's before they can twitch, or 2 seconds after, or a minute, or 10 minutes. To say that I'm wounding an animal if it lies down then bleeds out close enough for me to find easily isn't killing it's wounding doesn't seem reasonable.
I've got to admit I only shot 1 deer in my so far short life. I put one in the lungs, and no real reaction more than the sign of the bullet hitting. Waited for what seemed like 5 minutes, but may have just been 2 or 3. Anyways, I plugged another one in it and the deer just bumped forward a hair. Finally, after another short wait I put a third in it. All double lungs, and only one exited the deer. Finally, after the third round the deer felt something different, and jumped to run, but fell on its side sliding down the mountain and kicking like he was sprinting. Couple seconds later no movement not a twitch. I'd say that hydrostatic shock can do a lot on a critter, but it is no guarantee. I'll admit I didn't like the deer not going bang flop, but
I knew the after the first shot that hit both lungs, the worst case scenario I had to watch the deer run a few hundred yards and track if I couldn't watch it. Dead is dead. I don't take head shots cause they can lead to knock outs where the critter gets up when you get into it, and that is a mess I don't want to deal with so I kill it and wait to make sure it is not going to get up and run. Also, at range, with wind, or on moving targets you run a large risk of maiming or injury.
Often when people are shot they don't even know it unless they see it cause they don't always feel pain when hit. The body goes into shock and the link between pain receptors and the brain cuts out. So I'd say it's hard to argue it's not an ethical humane kill.
I've always thought that you practice your hunting shots on a target of equivalent size to your target area on the animal you plan on hunting. If you can keep ALL your shots in the properly sized target out to a certain distance in a specific position, then that is your effective range in that position. I don't know of many people who can consistently hit a golf ball past 150-200yrds in field position, and those few who can have had severe amounts of training and experience.
For snipers hitting a human head at 600+ yards is something they have to train rigorously for a long time. Cut the target size in half (a coyote's head is at least half the size of a human's), and even half the distance and it is going to take a whole lot of skill and practice. Most folks aren't even going to be able to make that shot in field conditions even with training. Most folks would have difficulty hitting a coyote in the lung area at that distance even from a bench if what I've seen at the local rifle range is any indication. Many guys come to the range to shoot the 200yrd metal silhouette which is about the size of a coyote and have a hard time even hitting the target, and not even consistent in their misses. That is why the money shot is always a heart/lung shot. Most people have a hard enough time making that shot especially in the field with inability to accurately judge the distance, wind, or vertical angles.
That is more than enough writing for now as I am brain dead (if anything sounds wrong here then it means I should have gone to bed much earlier). I'm sure you'll have an intriguing response.
Thanks for the comments Jeepdude. Even though I may have notions that are contrary to others, I always learn something from these types of lively debates. For example, after input from another I'm of the opinion that the high shoulder shot is nearly the same as my neck shot. A fellow shared some graphic illustrations of a mule deer's interal structure with me last night. After some study, it was clear to me that a high shoulder shot would create a swift kill similar to my neck shot. Even though I'm an old fart, I'm never too old to learn.
After all my typing on this issue last night, I turned on the TV and watched the movie "Terminator Solution". It was being shown in HD on HBO. Since the wife is out of town, I turned up the surround sound and had a great time. Unfortunately, in one of the first scenes of the movie my long held opinions on neck/head shots was severly challenged. John Connor was being assualted by a terminator that was missing its lower half. Connor must have shot this sucker 100 times in the head before it died. I'm starting to think that when it comes to a terminator, I should consider a center mass shot instead of the neck/head
