Public schoolers: How's that indoctrination workin' out?

Originally Posted By: RubenatorIt does seem like we have joined a pissing match and I for one will bow out.


Wise choice.
 
Originally Posted By: RubenatorIt does seem like we have joined a pissing match and I for one will bow out.

that is a good idea, and i am bowing out also.

jeffo, the only issues i have are with those whom flaunt those fancy letters in order to make themselves look better than others. 'nuff said.
 
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Originally Posted By: sweatybettyOriginally Posted By: RubenatorIt does seem like we have joined a pissing match and I for one will bow out.

that is a good idea, and i am bowing out also.

jeffo, the only issues i have are with those whom flaunt those fancy letters in order to make themselves look better than others. 'nuff said.


It has nothing to do with "fancy letters". It's about character, hard work, and integrity. I never made myself out to be "better" than anyone. But when misinformed, misguided people come sniffing around my chosen job, and tell me it's wrong, you're darned right I'm going to fire back. I make no apologies for that.
 
Sweatybetty I couple of questions about your sig line.

Quote: ashamed to be a product of the public education system

So you haven’t taken any personal responsibility for your education? Do you then consider yourself a victim of the system?
 
The really sad part of this thread is the two people touting their degrees in education! Lording it over everybody like they've accomplished something monumental... what a joke! Education degrees are handed out like candy...I could have "earned" a Master's degree (non-thesis) in education in one year after I completed my Bachelor's degree and my degree has nothing to do with teaching.
 
OK. I admit it. Stop the presses. I lasted outside just a fraction of the time I expected but let it be known that I briefly stepped into this closet of pseudo-intellectuals and looked around and instantly found nmleon on his soapbox spreading incorrect information about public education and public school teachers.

FACT- My Bachelors degree on the wall from Arizona State University is a Bachelors of Arts in Education degree not a Bachelors of Science in Education.

You obviously do not understand the difference. The Bachelor of Science and/with Education is a degree awarded to students who complete the four to five year course of study in the field of science (major and minor in biology, chemistry, physics, math) and Education, it is the combination of degree in science and education course(sometimes refer to double degree programs B.Sc + B.Ed = B.Sc.Ed). Although notionally B.Sc and B.Ed are two degrees, they must be taken together. There are very few universities that offer this course because it requires collaboration between the Faculty/School of Science and that of Education. It is to make sure that the teacher not only can work in education institution but also industrial area that related to science. Upon graduation, the students will straight away get offer job by government and private institution(mostly teach for matriculation, foundation or high school students) due to deep understanding of specific science and professional teaching training. Graduates also can work in other based science related industries. Bachelor of Science AND Education is totally different with Bachelor of Science IN Education.

Don't hate because you ain't. You can do some post back at a local community college at night and get an AA degree in truck driving or something simple. There is hope for you yet. Make your momma proud.

Oh your disdain cuts me to the quick. I am so ashamed. I am so stupid and you are so brilliant. I feel totally humiliated, my self esteem is at an absolute nadir....
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Oh no...wait a minute, I knew what I was talking about and (once again) it's you that doesn't have a clue and are "on a soapbox spreading incorrect information".
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Bachelor of Science in Education (BSE)
What is a Bachelor of Science in Education?
A Bachelor of Science degree in Education with a concentration in Elementary Teaching typically attracts students who love working with children, have a high energy level, and take pride and satisfaction in helping children make accomplishments and reach their goals. Good teachers can evaluate the learning styles and special needs of their classes, prepare and deliver engaging lesson plans, use assessment tools effectively and provide a supportive learning environment.

Coursework May Include: Child Psychology and Development, Foundations of Education, Assessment in Elementary Education, Children's Literature, Models of Instruction, Music for Elementary Education, Creative Drama, Instructional Planning and Assessment, Mathematics for Elementary Education, Public Speaking, Educational Philosophy, Instructional Technology, Educational Psychology, Diversity Management.


We all know how tough it is to drive a truck with a few extra gears. So once has to think, why is he getting so much? Could it be because he is on the other side of the world driving in a war zone risking life and limb to get someone some mattresses?[/size]

Actually it's fuel, ammunition, military vehicles, parts, and water for the most part.

Really Scott, most of us "pseudo intellectuals" back here left the "heap scorn and derision on your opponent" method of debate on the sixth grade playground. It makes YOU look like an arrogant, foolish, small minded individual who is unable to win a debate on the merits of his argument.

You keep making the assertion that I'm spreading half truths and misinformation, but you've been unable to successfully refute a single point germane to the debate. Do you really think no one has noticed?

By the way, perhaps in your intellectual munificence you would deign to help me with a little truck driver problem?

I've got 5 sites. Site A is home base, site B is 100km south of A, site C is 200km north. Site D is 400km west of site B and site E is 240km east of B.

I have 110 drivers and tractors, 110 flatbed trailers, 6 lowboy trailers, and 30 fuel tankers. I have 7 convoy leads (1 per convoy) and 16 bobtails (2 per convoy).

Convoys can only move outside the wire after dark and cannot have more than 40 plus 2 bobtails. Average convoy speed is 40kmph from A to C, 50kmph from B to D, and 35kmph everywhere else.

Convoy Drivers cannot work more than 16 hour shifts except when caught by exigent circumstances outside the wire, and must have an 8 hour break before starting the next shift. I cannot schedule a departure if the (theoretical) travel time will leave the convoy outside the wire after the 16 hours

I have 650 flatbed loads, 32 lowboy loads, and 16 refrigerated trailers that must be moved in the next 5 weeks from C to A and 380 flatbed, 21 lowboy, and 6 reefers from C to A

During that same period I will need to run 2 convoys a week to B (15 and 30 truck plus bobtails) and 2 a week to E (both 30 truck) from A.

I have to allow a 12.5% "slippage" (fudge) factor.

Can you help with my mission planning? Yeah, that truck driving is sure a job for dummies isn't it.

Never mind, we have almost finished that profile successfully. (Full disclosure, that wouldn't normally have been my problem, but the guy who would normally do it is a truck driver too).

Your obvious disdain for the intellectual abilities of anyone who doesn't have a degree is misplaced. Some choose professions that don't require degrees, and others just don't bother.

I may not have the academic credentials, but I do have the academic qualifications. A few years ago, after looking at my transcripts/apps and a taking whole battery of tests, I was accepted into the MBA and SCPM (project management) program(s) at Stanford. They said that though I had (way) more than enough credit hours (their calculation was 158 credit hours, Singapore and Heidelberg use different systems), I was required to "test out of" (and pay for) several prerequisite courses to get the required Bachelor degree (and they would award a BS). It seems I neglected the "important" stuff like History and English (though they said I tested at a Doctoral level..go figure). While most of my courses have been in the sciences (math, physics, material sciences, chemistry, biology), there was a little problem with some of my "advanced" classes too. It seems for instance that if you take Gas State Physics (I got a 3.6 GPA) it doesn't count at Stanford unless you took Introduction to Physics first.

And yes a few of the courses I've taken were in community colleges as well as at CSU (CO), WestConn (CT), Heidelberg U (Germany), and NTU (Singapore).

In the end I decided it was too much time and money, and I'm still just a "pseudo intellectual" without even a Bachelors degree, but, based on your (non) performance back here, I'll match my intellectual capabilities against yours any day.

In the professional area I see that you have 1 certification. Is that right?

These are a few of the certifications and licences I hold or have held, related to jobs I've had,(besides the CDL with tanker, multiple trailer, hazmat endorsements), Master trainer/instructor, safety instructor, Firefighter instructor, 3 Project management certifications, Explosives Engineer (Singaporean equivalent of a Blasting Contractor licence...sort of), Airframe and Powerplant, Undersea blasting, wet (underwater) welding, undersea cutting (thermal lance), Hyperbaric Chamber Operations, EMT (Diver), EMT, Air (surface) diving, Bell/Sat, North Sea Bell, Firefighter 1 & 2, Commercial contracting (Ca & NM).

Thank goodness the state is now holding these lazy parents accountable for the education their kids are receiving. Ideally they should assess the home-school child's knowledge once a year and if the child is not up to snuff, the parent loses their job as a pseudo-educator and the kid by law gets pulled back in public school again.

Let's spread the accountability around for everyone involved with educating children. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.


Absolutely, and let's fire that teacher who thinks miles are a shorter linear measure than kilometers, and the freshman high-school teacher who was teaching my nephew that fish were amphibians, and the 21% of NM teachers who couldn't pass tests in the subject matter they were teaching at the grade level they were teaching.

Oh no, can't do that, the union would drive you into the poor house before you could actually get rid of them.

Absolutely let's spread the accountability around. It would be a welcome change.
 
Quote:Now we're back to the money thing. Round and round we go.

Yes jeffo, the money paid to any profession IS a valid metric in a capitalist system. The value of a profession to a capitalist society is by definition the compensation paid. It is a basic phenomenon in free market economics. In "The Wealth Of Nations", Adam Smith (the man credited with being the father of economics) called the phenomenon "the invisible hand".

That does not mean that any job isn't important, all jobs are important (or they wouldn't be jobs).



Quote:Most people could probably teach elementary-aged kids, but beyond that...

And THAT'S why you are paid so much less than so many other professions (including mine).

You work in a job that requires very few specialized skills or training (relative to other professions), and that therefore attracts college graduates (job candidates) of the lowest quality.

Some college professors for instance make in the $200,000 a year range, but there are very few candidates that are capable of doing their job.
 
Seriously Leon, teaching is low skill. That's a bunch of BS. In all honest there is a certain level of skill that has to be present. Can you teach a kid with autism trig? Can you help a student with dyslexia to read? Can you take 30 students all with different back grounds, behaviors, needs etc. And teach them basic Physics?

Commenting that teaching has very little skill needed, shows that you have no idea what the profession entails. Instead it confirms that you are simply a person with a beef, and would rather support your lack of true/1st hand knowledge on the subject by citing various press.

I would love to see you step into a classroom and teach since you obviuosly have a job that requires such ahigh level of skill. Good luck.
 
The real issue here is how the federal government has taken more and more control.

That IS the issue, as I stated at the beginning of this debate in the other thread.





The unions of course lobby for items, but had the federal government stayed out and local control remained what the union attempted to pass at the federal level would not have mattered.

True, but incomplete. The Unions didn't just "lobby for items", they financed the election campaigns of legislators who promised to implement union policy and lobbied congress to pass laws and regulations to their benefit.

The unions have spent vast amounts of money conning the public into believing that "they knew best" when it came to education and in getting the public to support ultimately harmful policies and programs by trading on the respect people once had for teachers as professionals (before they made themselves over into skilled labor), believing that they had their children's education and success as their primary goals. Many people still don't understand that while individual teachers may have as their primary focus their children's success, the union does not (and can't have, legally).

Their lobbying efforts are without parallel (I believe the NEA is the largest union in the U.S.) and effect government policy on a wide range of issues, some of them not directly related to education.

My interest in educational policy was initiated in the '60s while I was still in high school, by what I considered to be a shocking news story.

In her address to their national convention, the new president of the just formed NEA (as a union instead of a professional organization) called for teachers and schools to concentrate more on socialization and less on academics. That concept and it's subsequent implementation has caused more degradation of educational standards than perhaps any other factor.



Do I agree with the stance of the union on many issues? NO. I believe the direct blame is at the federal level and their ability to set federal mandate and then not fund them out.

The problem isn't the lack of funding, it's the funding itself. I'm tired and I'm not going to dig the references out again, but go back to the school closure thread and read the SCOTUS and Fed District court decisions I referenced. If the government funds to any degree they have a responsibility to control. That's the ruling of the Supreme Court.

The problem is that the federal government funds education at all. Of course they are using (some of the) money they took from you at the local level to do it.

Here's an eye opener for you Elks. As an administrator you should have access to your district's budget, right? Find out how much time (money) is spent by your district to verify compliance with federal regulations. Not how much is spent to comply, but how many hours of secretarial, admin, and teacher time is spent doing the paperwork to show the feds you are in compliance with title IX, Title VII, etc, (that's what the Grove City College SCOTUS case was about). In some large multi racial districts they spend as much as 20% of their budget on compliance documentation (and get on average 10% or less from the feds).

This is just one of the reasons why the government schools are actually more expensive than the (usually higher academic quality) private schools.



If the unions had no chance to make changes on the federal level, then the only job they would have is to protect the local workers.

Again true, but incomplete. The unions have fought long and hard for consolidation, the federal involvement being just part of it. There are about 15,000 school districts in the U.S. (2002 data I think). At one time there were 177,000 school districts in the U.S. The unions want it that way. It's much easier to negotiate and influence 15,000 large entities than 177,000 small ones.

Because of the legal difficulties, the only workable solution is to completely privatize the system. Public funding in the form of tax credits, yes, but get government out of it all together.

There would be many failures, but there are many failing schools now. The difference is that under the current government monopoly system the failures continue ad nauseum. In a privatized system the market forces would force them to close.
 
Elks, read it again. What I said was:

"You work in a job that requires very few specialized skills or training (relative to other professions), and that therefore attracts college graduates (job candidates) of the lowest quality.

Not opinion, fact according to numerous studies. Though high academic ability is very strongly correlated with the teacher quality, elementary school teaching does not attract (or keep) candidates with high academic quality. Just the opposite, it gets an inordinate number of graduates from the lowest quartile.




Pulled Away or Pushed Out? Explaining the Decline of Teacher Aptitude in the United States
December 01, 2003
Authors: Caroline Hoxby, Andrew Leigh, Harvard University

This study by two Harvard researchers finds that the perverse teacher pay system used in public schools, which does not reward superior performance but does reward attributes that have been shown to be unrelated to classroom performance (credentials and years of experience), has been the major cause of significant declines in teacher quality since 1960. Improved opportunities for women in the broader labor market are a much less important factor.




The Declining Quality of Teachers by Darius Lakdawalla
NBER Working Paper No. 8263*
Issued in April 2001

Concern is often voiced about the declining quality of American schoolteachers. This paper shows that, while the relative quality of teachers is declining, this decline is a result of technical change, which improves the specialized knowledge of skilled workers outside teaching, but not the general knowledge of schoolteachers. This raises the price of skilled teachers, but not their productivity. Schools respond by lowering the relative skill of teachers and raising teacher quantity. On the other hand, college professors, who teach specialized knowledge, are predicted to experience increases in skill relative to schoolteachers. Finally, the lagging productivity of primary schools is predicted to raise the unit cost of primary education. These predictions appear consistent with the data. Analysis of US Census microdata suggests that, from the 1900 birth cohort to the 1950 birth cohort, the relative schooling of teachers has declined by about three years, and the human capital of teachers may have declined in value relative to that of college graduates by as much as thirty percent, but the teacher-student ratio has more than doubled over the last half century in a wide array of developed countries. Moreover, the per student cost of primary school education in the US has also risen dramatically over the past 50 years. Finally, the human capital of college professors has risen by nearly thirty percent relative to schoolteachers.



Long-Run Trends in the Quality of Teachers: Evidence and Implications for Policy
Sean P. Corcoran
Nearly all modern research on the subject finds teacher effectiveness to be among the most important school inputs into student achievement. Yet recent literature, including my own work (Corcoran, Evans, and Schwab 2004), finds evidence that the quality of teachers has steadily eroded over time. In particular, the likelihood that a high-aptitude female pursued a career in teaching dropped precipitously between 1960 and 2000. In this article, I summarize these and related findings, review some of the most common explanations for the trend in teacher quality, and discuss policies that have been advanced to attract talented graduates to the teaching profession.




The academic quality of public school teachers: an analysis of entry and exit behavior Michael Podgursky, , Ryan Monroe and Donald Watson
The authors investigate how the labor market decisions of recent college graduates, new teachers, and employers affect the academic quality of the teaching workforce in public schools. They use a rich longitudinal data set of Missouri college graduates and public school teachers to examine the behavior of college graduates concerning an initial decision to secure certification and teach in a public school, and subsequent decisions as to whether to continue. They find that college graduates with above-average ACT scores tend not to select into teaching, however, the effect is most pronounced for elementary school teachers. At any level of academic achievement, women are far more likely than men to teach, however, the relative aversion of high-ability women to teaching is at least as great as that of men. High-ability men and women who do enter public school teaching are more likely to leave than their less talented counterparts. Examination of non-teaching earnings for exiting teachers finds little evidence that high-ability teachers are leaving for higher pay. The results also highlight very different mobility patterns by teaching field. For both men and women, the attrition of math and science teachers with high ACT scores is greater than in other teaching fields. Finally, peer group effects may be a factor explaining female exit behavior. Controlling for own ACT, high-ability women who work with low-ability colleagues are more likely to exit.


 
Leon,
The studies you cite may in some way be fact, but it is also fact that higher you go in school the less training in education the instructors have. In general, the lower the grade in school, the more actual teaching takes place. Case in point; my sister graduated HS near the top of her class already with several college credits from Lafayette university. She then goes on to The University of Arizona, and graduates in 3 1/2 years with a degree in molecular and cellular bio. Goes to grad school and gets masters in genetic counseling. Generally, what I assume most would consider the "higher quartile". Recently, she began teaching some college classes. Guess who she call for advice on how to reach her students??????? Answer: Her brother(me) who went to a PA state school, for 6 years with a degree in Elementary Ed. Just sayin, the term skills is very relative.
One of these days I'll post the story about the bunnyhugger parent that complains to my boss about me because I discus the eating of meat (in the context of The Great Depression).
Mike
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonElks, read it again. What I said was:

"You work in a job that requires very few specialized skills or training (relative to other professions), and that therefore attracts college graduates (job candidates) of the lowest quality.

Not opinion, fact according to numerous studies. Though high academic ability is very strongly correlated with the teacher quality, elementary school teaching does not attract (or keep) candidates with high academic quality. Just the opposite, it gets an inordinate number of graduates from the lowest quartile.




Pulled Away or Pushed Out? Explaining the Decline of Teacher Aptitude in the United States
December 01, 2003
Authors: Caroline Hoxby, Andrew Leigh, Harvard University

This study by two Harvard researchers finds that the perverse teacher pay system used in public schools, which does not reward superior performance but does reward attributes that have been shown to be unrelated to classroom performance (credentials and years of experience), has been the major cause of significant declines in teacher quality since 1960. Improved opportunities for women in the broader labor market are a much less important factor.




The Declining Quality of Teachers by Darius Lakdawalla
NBER Working Paper No. 8263*
Issued in April 2001

Concern is often voiced about the declining quality of American schoolteachers. This paper shows that, while the relative quality of teachers is declining, this decline is a result of technical change, which improves the specialized knowledge of skilled workers outside teaching, but not the general knowledge of schoolteachers. This raises the price of skilled teachers, but not their productivity. Schools respond by lowering the relative skill of teachers and raising teacher quantity. On the other hand, college professors, who teach specialized knowledge, are predicted to experience increases in skill relative to schoolteachers. Finally, the lagging productivity of primary schools is predicted to raise the unit cost of primary education. These predictions appear consistent with the data. Analysis of US Census microdata suggests that, from the 1900 birth cohort to the 1950 birth cohort, the relative schooling of teachers has declined by about three years, and the human capital of teachers may have declined in value relative to that of college graduates by as much as thirty percent, but the teacher-student ratio has more than doubled over the last half century in a wide array of developed countries. Moreover, the per student cost of primary school education in the US has also risen dramatically over the past 50 years. Finally, the human capital of college professors has risen by nearly thirty percent relative to schoolteachers.



Long-Run Trends in the Quality of Teachers: Evidence and Implications for Policy
Sean P. Corcoran
Nearly all modern research on the subject finds teacher effectiveness to be among the most important school inputs into student achievement. Yet recent literature, including my own work (Corcoran, Evans, and Schwab 2004), finds evidence that the quality of teachers has steadily eroded over time. In particular, the likelihood that a high-aptitude female pursued a career in teaching dropped precipitously between 1960 and 2000. In this article, I summarize these and related findings, review some of the most common explanations for the trend in teacher quality, and discuss policies that have been advanced to attract talented graduates to the teaching profession.




The academic quality of public school teachers: an analysis of entry and exit behavior Michael Podgursky, , Ryan Monroe and Donald Watson
The authors investigate how the labor market decisions of recent college graduates, new teachers, and employers affect the academic quality of the teaching workforce in public schools. They use a rich longitudinal data set of Missouri college graduates and public school teachers to examine the behavior of college graduates concerning an initial decision to secure certification and teach in a public school, and subsequent decisions as to whether to continue. They find that college graduates with above-average ACT scores tend not to select into teaching, however, the effect is most pronounced for elementary school teachers. At any level of academic achievement, women are far more likely than men to teach, however, the relative aversion of high-ability women to teaching is at least as great as that of men. High-ability men and women who do enter public school teaching are more likely to leave than their less talented counterparts. Examination of non-teaching earnings for exiting teachers finds little evidence that high-ability teachers are leaving for higher pay. The results also highlight very different mobility patterns by teaching field. For both men and women, the attrition of math and science teachers with high ACT scores is greater than in other teaching fields. Finally, peer group effects may be a factor explaining female exit behavior. Controlling for own ACT, high-ability women who work with low-ability colleagues are more likely to exit.




Looks like we need to pay our teachers more to retain the best of the best.
 
When my firstborn, my son, was in 3rd grade (public school), he did something wrong at home. I told him he was going to get 3 swats on his butt and be grounded for a week. He proceeds to point his index finger at me and say's "if you spank me, I'll tell my teacher and he'll call the police. The police will put you in jail". Needless to say, I pulled him out of public school and placed him in a parochial school, all the way through high school. My daughter started out in parochial school and graduated from the same parochial high school my son did.

It was very expensive! I worked 2 full time jobs and volunteered at the school to get a tuition discount. However, we only get one chance to educate our kids, don't we? How much are our children worth???
 
nmleon-

In all honesty the manner in which you dismiss real life opinion that professional educators post here is absurd. You copy and paste from articles that coincide with your point of view and act surprised when teachers disagree with you. Anyone who has done much research on the world wide web knows that you can find an article or study to support just about any opinion, even the most absurd. You loose credibility within your circle of peers when you refuse to allow your opinion to evolve when presented with a plethora of quality facts from people working in the industry. As I said before, you believe your opinion is infallible regardless of the facts presented. Why anyone wastes their time in these threads, trying to change minds is beyond me. Prideful people will always refuse to listen to others opinions, regardless of how innovative and incitement they are. IN the end real life experiences TRUMP your studies and research. Data and statistics play a roll in research but the collection of real life 'current' data also is important.

Recently I received a phone call from a past administrator of this site. He has been reading these education threads and called to tell me to save my breath. He said in the past he has seen you brag and boast in the backroom that you 'own' everyone in these arguments and that you have yet to meet your match when is comes to an online debate. He went so far as to say you get off debating with people on here. This is a sad commentary and provides some incite to your antics in this sub-forum.

When you said the following:

Quote:It is also a little strange that while there undoubtedly is "more to it than most people realize", teaching as a profession has somehow become a "Science", as in a Bachelor of Science-Education, ...

... you led others to believe that degrees in the field of education are bachelors of science degrees. That is not entirely true. As I tried to point out to you, many are bachelors of arts degrees. You can find 1,000,000 websites claiming that nobody in education obtains BA in education. YOU ARE WRONG. You can cite 1,000,000 research studies stating no educators are getting BA in education. YOU ARE WRONG. I can take a picture of my actual degree and you can read the words yourself. It says Bachelor of Arts in Education regardless of what you post in this thread.

You needed some help with your trucking so I found a fella with the credentials:


 
Originally Posted By: nmleonOK. I admit it. Stop the presses. I lasted outside just a fraction of the time I expected but let it be known that I briefly stepped into this closet of pseudo-intellectuals and looked around and instantly found nmleon on his soapbox spreading incorrect information about public education and public school teachers.

FACT- My Bachelors degree on the wall from Arizona State University is a Bachelors of Arts in Education degree not a Bachelors of Science in Education.

You obviously do not understand the difference. The Bachelor of Science and/with Education is a degree awarded to students who complete the four to five year course of study in the field of science (major and minor in biology, chemistry, physics, math) and Education, it is the combination of degree in science and education course(sometimes refer to double degree programs B.Sc + B.Ed = B.Sc.Ed). Although notionally B.Sc and B.Ed are two degrees, they must be taken together. There are very few universities that offer this course because it requires collaboration between the Faculty/School of Science and that of Education. It is to make sure that the teacher not only can work in education institution but also industrial area that related to science. Upon graduation, the students will straight away get offer job by government and private institution(mostly teach for matriculation, foundation or high school students) due to deep understanding of specific science and professional teaching training. Graduates also can work in other based science related industries. Bachelor of Science AND Education is totally different with Bachelor of Science IN Education.

Don't hate because you ain't. You can do some post back at a local community college at night and get an AA degree in truck driving or something simple. There is hope for you yet. Make your momma proud.

Oh your disdain cuts me to the quick. I am so ashamed. I am so stupid and you are so brilliant. I feel totally humiliated, my self esteem is at an absolute nadir....
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Oh no...wait a minute, I knew what I was talking about and (once again) it's you that doesn't have a clue and are "on a soapbox spreading incorrect information".
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Bachelor of Science in Education (BSE)
What is a Bachelor of Science in Education?
A Bachelor of Science degree in Education with a concentration in Elementary Teaching typically attracts students who love working with children, have a high energy level, and take pride and satisfaction in helping children make accomplishments and reach their goals. Good teachers can evaluate the learning styles and special needs of their classes, prepare and deliver engaging lesson plans, use assessment tools effectively and provide a supportive learning environment.

Coursework May Include: Child Psychology and Development, Foundations of Education, Assessment in Elementary Education, Children's Literature, Models of Instruction, Music for Elementary Education, Creative Drama, Instructional Planning and Assessment, Mathematics for Elementary Education, Public Speaking, Educational Philosophy, Instructional Technology, Educational Psychology, Diversity Management.


We all know how tough it is to drive a truck with a few extra gears. So once has to think, why is he getting so much? Could it be because he is on the other side of the world driving in a war zone risking life and limb to get someone some mattresses?[/size]

Actually it's fuel, ammunition, military vehicles, parts, and water for the most part.

Really Scott, most of us "pseudo intellectuals" back here left the "heap scorn and derision on your opponent" method of debate on the sixth grade playground. It makes YOU look like an arrogant, foolish, small minded individual who is unable to win a debate on the merits of his argument.

You keep making the assertion that I'm spreading half truths and misinformation, but you've been unable to successfully refute a single point germane to the debate. Do you really think no one has noticed?

By the way, perhaps in your intellectual munificence you would deign to help me with a little truck driver problem?

I've got 5 sites. Site A is home base, site B is 100km south of A, site C is 200km north. Site D is 400km west of site B and site E is 240km east of B.

I have 110 drivers and tractors, 110 flatbed trailers, 6 lowboy trailers, and 30 fuel tankers. I have 7 convoy leads (1 per convoy) and 16 bobtails (2 per convoy).

Convoys can only move outside the wire after dark and cannot have more than 40 plus 2 bobtails. Average convoy speed is 40kmph from A to C, 50kmph from B to D, and 35kmph everywhere else.

Convoy Drivers cannot work more than 16 hour shifts except when caught by exigent circumstances outside the wire, and must have an 8 hour break before starting the next shift. I cannot schedule a departure if the (theoretical) travel time will leave the convoy outside the wire after the 16 hours

I have 650 flatbed loads, 32 lowboy loads, and 16 refrigerated trailers that must be moved in the next 5 weeks from C to A and 380 flatbed, 21 lowboy, and 6 reefers from C to A

During that same period I will need to run 2 convoys a week to B (15 and 30 truck plus bobtails) and 2 a week to E (both 30 truck) from A.

I have to allow a 12.5% "slippage" (fudge) factor.

Can you help with my mission planning? Yeah, that truck driving is sure a job for dummies isn't it.

Never mind, we have almost finished that profile successfully. (Full disclosure, that wouldn't normally have been my problem, but the guy who would normally do it is a truck driver too).

Your obvious disdain for the intellectual abilities of anyone who doesn't have a degree is misplaced. Some choose professions that don't require degrees, and others just don't bother.

I may not have the academic credentials, but I do have the academic qualifications. A few years ago, after looking at my transcripts/apps and a taking whole battery of tests, I was accepted into the MBA and SCPM (project management) program(s) at Stanford. They said that though I had (way) more than enough credit hours (their calculation was 158 credit hours, Singapore and Heidelberg use different systems), I was required to "test out of" (and pay for) several prerequisite courses to get the required Bachelor degree (and they would award a BS). It seems I neglected the "important" stuff like History and English (though they said I tested at a Doctoral level..go figure). While most of my courses have been in the sciences (math, physics, material sciences, chemistry, biology), there was a little problem with some of my "advanced" classes too. It seems for instance that if you take Gas State Physics (I got a 3.6 GPA) it doesn't count at Stanford unless you took Introduction to Physics first.

And yes a few of the courses I've taken were in community colleges as well as at CSU (CO), WestConn (CT), Heidelberg U (Germany), and NTU (Singapore).

In the end I decided it was too much time and money, and I'm still just a "pseudo intellectual" without even a Bachelors degree, but, based on your (non) performance back here, I'll match my intellectual capabilities against yours any day.

In the professional area I see that you have 1 certification. Is that right?

These are a few of the certifications and licences I hold or have held, related to jobs I've had,(besides the CDL with tanker, multiple trailer, hazmat endorsements), Master trainer/instructor, safety instructor, Firefighter instructor, 3 Project management certifications, Explosives Engineer (Singaporean equivalent of a Blasting Contractor licence...sort of), Airframe and Powerplant, Undersea blasting, wet (underwater) welding, undersea cutting (thermal lance), Hyperbaric Chamber Operations, EMT (Diver), EMT, Air (surface) diving, Bell/Sat, North Sea Bell, Firefighter 1 & 2, Commercial contracting (Ca & NM).

Thank goodness the state is now holding these lazy parents accountable for the education their kids are receiving. Ideally they should assess the home-school child's knowledge once a year and if the child is not up to snuff, the parent loses their job as a pseudo-educator and the kid by law gets pulled back in public school again.

Let's spread the accountability around for everyone involved with educating children. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.


Absolutely, and let's fire that teacher who thinks miles are a shorter linear measure than kilometers, and the freshman high-school teacher who was teaching my nephew that fish were amphibians, and the 21% of NM teachers who couldn't pass tests in the subject matter they were teaching at the grade level they were teaching.

Oh no, can't do that, the union would drive you into the poor house before you could actually get rid of them.

Absolutely let's spread the accountability around. It would be a welcome change.


















I wonder if you ever get tired of reminding yourself how smart you are. I strongly suspect most everyone else is (even your minions). By the way, what's your degree in again?
 
I pulled what I suspect was a violation of the TOS. Not exactly sure.

Regardless- You (along with everyone) was warned (reminded) by a BOD member that digs about people's profession were not tolerated but nobody in these threads adheres to that bit of council.

It's like within this sub-forum the rules are relaxed. People insult each other and make disparaging remarks about others profession, and everyone turns a blind eye to the TOS.

It's tough to know what is permissible and what isn't.
 
Thank you Scott, and yes the rules ARE a little more relaxed here than in the other forums, and yes that can cause a little bit of confusion, even among the admin. In general the rules kick in when it's made personal.



Quote:you led others to believe that degrees in the field of education are bachelors of science degrees.

No, I said the profession has become considered a science (in some people's eyes), as witnessed by the fact that a BSE degree has been invented.

I neither said or implied that ALL teaching degrees were BSEs, and in fact posted the requirements for a teaching credential in AZ (no BSE) in the other thread, and obviously did know what I was talking about.



Quote:He said in the past he has seen you brag and boast in the backroom that you 'own' everyone in these arguments and that you have yet to meet your match when is comes to an online debate. He went so far as to say you get off debating with people on here. This is a sad commentary and provides some incite to your antics in this sub-forum.

I am not surprised that that particular individual would get the details wrong, I am (a little) surprised that he would pass on what is supposed to be confidential (back room stuff is by definition and agreement confidential). It shows him to be a less than honorable man and that's a disappointment.

He almost got it right though. I have never claimed to "own everyone", but I do feel that I rarely lose a debate. That's more because I only engage in debate when it's a subject I'm very familiar with than due to any debating sills. A truly skilled debater would be able to take either position and do as well.

I absolutely DO "get off" on debating people though. It is in fact one of my very favorite things to do. I am curious though as to why you would characterize that as sad. Some of the greatest innovations in history are the direct result of spirited debate, including our form of government and indeed the existence of our country. I am also curious as to just what insight you gained and what you feel are "antics".



Quote:In all honesty the manner in which you dismiss real life opinion that professional educators post here is absurd. You copy and paste from articles that coincide with your point of view and act surprised when teachers disagree with you. Anyone who has done much research on the world wide web knows that you can find an article or study to support just about any opinion, even the most absurd.

I believe that the "article" above, published in a peer reviewed journal and more or less the conclusion of the author's own analysis without the data sets and calculations, and the newspaper article showing that at least some curricula are decided at the local level in AZ are the only two "articles" I've cited in this debate.

I have cited just off the top of my head, the U.S. Department of Education, The U.S. Department of Labor, the U.S. National Center for Educational Statistics, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, and numerous peer reviewed statistical analyses compiled (mostly) by Phds dedicated to the field of education, and often by full professors with post docs as assistants.

Yes you CAN find an "article" on the web to support just about any position, even the most absurd, but try doing the same with peer reviewed statistical analyses. In those cases where peer reviewed analyses seem to contradict one another, closer examination will usually show good reason why.

For example the press has reported in many articles that the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics) says there is an 85% high school graduation rate in the U.S., while most other studies put it at 75% or less.

Hmmm studies disagreeing with each other.

Well, not really. When you look at the actual data set compiled by the NCES, you see they aren't really collecting data on high school graduations at all. They get their data from a questionnaire they send out, and they don't even claim to be measuring graduation percentages. They are collating data in a survey of 25 year olds on (self reported) high school completion including GEDs.

There are of course a couple of glaring problems with that. First, GEDs in the marketplace do not equate to graduation. They have only barely a better effect on future earnings than dropping out. Then of course the data depends on a self described answer (survey) and there's no control to assure that questions are answered honestly.

Note that all this info is readily available from the NCES. They are quite open with their data and their methodology. It's the media that gets it wrong.




Quote:IN the end real life experiences TRUMP your studies and research. Data and statistics play a roll in research but the collection of real life 'current' data also is important.


No sir, "real life experiences" do NOT "trump studies and research", and it is in fact absurd for you to even suggest it. I can only hope that you do not actually believe your own statement.

Your "experience" is in one school district among approximately 15,000.

Think of it this way, convoys from our base had 2 IED attacks and a complex ambush (coordinated attack from multiple sources) last week. WOW!!! My local and current personal knowledge from being on the scene and hip deep in it, tells me that this war is heating up again.

Back in the pentagon though, they look at the statistics and see that in theater in the last 30 days (all 150 bases)there have been a total of 15 IEDs and 3 ambushes, compared to 21 IEDs and 5 ambushes in the previous 30 days, and 72 IEDs and 17 ambushes during the same time period a year ago.

Their overall data analysis and historical perspective give them the more correct conclusion that things are becoming safer, and we're winning the war. It doesn't help much if you are the guy with half a foot blown off (and you would swear it's heating up), BUT IT'S A FACT.

The collection of current data is important, but only as it adds to data set and the understanding of the overall picture. By itself it is just a single datum and is nearly meaningless.

It's the same thing with you and your local "current" perspective on government education. You may know what's happening in your classroom, but unless you are searching for data on the subject WAY outside the purview of your job (as I have), you CAN'T have an accurate idea of the condition of government education nationally, and without continuing data collection over a number of years (longer than you've been alive) you CAN'T know where government education was, how it got to where it is, and what the trend lines are showing what direction it is going.

Here's a question for you. You have repeatedly made the assertion that anybody not in the field of education and not having equal academic credentials to yours should bow to your opinion and stop foolishly trying to debate an expert (you).

That said, how do you justify YOUR continuing disagreement with multiple full professors of education and their published analyses of national government schooling?
 
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