Public schoolers: How's that indoctrination workin' out?

If you'd cease posting a mudslide of studies, research papers, and articles long enough to be honest with people and make down to earth posts people can read with enjoyment the few times you DID post an article people (myself included) would read it with pleasure. At this point myself and others have become desensitized to your long rants.

I'm sure you would want me to drop the intellectual level down a few notches and not introduce actual data into the debate. It must be embarrassing for you to be constantly proven wrong by a mere truck driver.

Though you keep saying that I post articles as citations, it just isn't so.

The ONLY time I've posted an "article" in this whole series of educational threads was was here.

Remember? This is the way it went.

Scott:I think if anyone cared enough to dig into what you post they would fine large holes in your 'facts' like I am going to point out right now. I think to you 'the end justifies the means' so you type half-truths, misunderstandings, and sometimes inaccurate and incorrect statements to prove your point. Because your average PM reader doesn't care to invest the time and effort to dissect your 'copy and pastes' they take it as Gospel. Because I am basically familiar with the topic being discussed I have seen and pointed out several mistakes you make when speaking of education. Let's read below as just 1 example.

Quote:Scott initially said-
Quote:Curriculum is decided upon at a state level. No school board decides upon core subject curriculum- reading, writing , math, social studies, science.
Curriculum is decided upon at by the state department of education.

Quote:nmleon then said-
Quote:Not exactly, not even in AZ. Remember this one?


That aspect of the curriculum, presented to sixth-graders, had drawn concern from parents who felt that the information was too advanced for students at that age. “We’re talking about teaching sixth-grade kids stuff we should be teaching them at grades nine, 10, 11 and 12,” said district parent Sudeep Mehta at the Kyrene board meeting in which the changes were adopted.

Scott then said:
The link you provided and expound upon above is referring to sex education being taught, not as I mentioned core subject curriculum- reading, writing , math, social studies, science. Why would you ignore these core area subject I mentioned and pick an odd curriculum that is taught a few days a year and show where school board opened it up for discussion and change? It doesn't apply. It is not a core area subject and the state leaves the specifics of sex education to the school board to decide. I even posted a link to the AZ Department of Education's site where it showed you first hand. No where on that list did it mention sex education but you found an article speaking of sex education and pushed a round peg into a square hole and tried to prove a point with it.

You then went on to "prove" the point by listing a whole page from the AZ Dept of ED on Sex ED, and wound up with this little zinger

I honestly feel if someone delved into your postings with intent they would uncover more of these type of antics.

I just need to stay out of this area of the forum. You like-minded people can just sit down here and bounce conspiracy theories off each other until you're blue in the face. You impact such a minuscule amount of people down here it really doesn't make a difference if you state incorrect facts and lies about public education.


Well, it seems you may not only be ignorant of national education, but of AZ education policy as well.

Here's an e-mail I got when I delved into your postings., uncovering just one of your many antics (yet again).


Good morning Leon,

Thank you for contacting the Arizona Department of Education.

The state legislature and the department of Education work together to create standards for each academic subject in each grade. These standards out line exactly what a student should know by the time he or she completes a certain grade. However, the laws leave it up to individual districts to formulate their own curriculum, or the methodologies and texts that they use to help students meet the standards. Then teachers formulate their own lesson plans. Most Governing Boards have a curriculum committee that calculates instructional design.

I hope you find this information helpful. We appreciate the opportunity to be of service.


Sincerely,
Karla Bravo
Constituent Services
Arizona Department of Education



Don't be too disheartened, I'm sure we all still believe you are the PM expert on education...in a 6th grade classroom...in the Gilbert school district.
 
LOL yeah and if the district does not follow the curriculum outlined by the state, which is alignment with the standardized test they force districts to administer, then the district does not make adequate yearly progress and can be take over by the state. After a few years of not hitting AYP Principal can be dismissed along with the teachers.

Yeah sounds like the district can make up their own curriculum!

I typed up a big long reply to your previous post to show you how you ONCE AGAIN cited information incorrectly but deleted it.

You're a lost cause that just agitates me. It is like talking to a wall over and over. I am going to put you on ignore from this point forward.

Quote:Gilbert school district.

Gilbert School district is a proper noun you louse. All the words should be capitalized, but then again you told us you sucked at English so we can be too critical.
 
Quote:Here's an e-mail I got when I delved into your postings., uncovering just one of your many antics (yet again).


Good morning Leon,

Thank you for contacting the Arizona Department of Education.

The state legislature and the department of Education work together to create standards for each academic subject in each grade. These standards out line exactly what a student should know by the time he or she completes a certain grade. However, the laws leave it up to individual districts to formulate their own curriculum, or the methodologies and texts that they use to help students meet the standards. Then teachers formulate their own lesson plans. Most Governing Boards have a curriculum committee that calculates instructional design.

I hope you find this information helpful. We appreciate the opportunity to be of service.


Sincerely,
Karla Bravo
Constituent Services
Arizona Department of Education

Leon,
LOL. If by posting that letter you think you are proving that a district decides what teachers are to teach students you are very incorrect. You don't understand the vocabulary associated with education. Curriculum is decided upon by the district. Curriculum is the manner in which the district administers the curriculum such as the scope and sequence of the state standards (what to teach and when), the books adopted to teach the state standards and things along that line. The state standards are decided upon at each state level. There are committees created consisting of parents, teachers, administrators and state dept of education representatives that decide the state standards. I have linked for you the state standards per grade level and subject from the state department of education's own website many times. You should know this. 'Race to the Top' attempts to muddy up the waters some.

To recap- "...However, the laws leave it up to individual districts to formulate their own curriculum, or the methodologies and texts that they use to help students meet the standards."

DUH. The state government decides what is taught to students in the state of Arizona.
 
Quote:Gilbert School district is a proper noun you louse. All the words should be capitalized, but then again you told us you sucked at English so we can be too critical.

Uh.. that should be: Gilbert School District is a proper noun you louse. All the words should be capitalized, but then again you told us you sucked at English so we can't be too critical.

Yeah, I wouldn't be too critical.
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Quote:Scott initially said-
Quote:Curriculum is decided upon at a state level. No school board decides upon core subject curriculum- reading, writing , math, social studies, science.
Curriculum is decided upon at by the state department of education.


However, the laws leave it up to individual districts to formulate their own curriculum, or the methodologies and texts that they use to help students meet the standards.


Quote:I typed up a big long reply to your previous post to show you how you ONCE AGAIN cited information incorrectly but deleted it.

What, you really think people can't read?
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Amazing, even after being proven wrong in your own words, you still claim that it's me that's citing information incorrectly.
 
Leon,
Regardless whether you will admit it here in public or not, you are wrong. The districts do not decide what kids learn, the state does.

Every single teacher in this thread will back me up on this fact.

The state develops the standards that kids should know by the end of the year. The school district decides how to teach these standards (what text books, what reading program, what social studies study guide and such) That's it. The teacher is at the end of the chain and teaches the material in the manner the district asks. To insure the districts teach the standards there is a state mandated test once a year to see if the school is making AYP.






 
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I like that idea about the schools having to identify and use the same books/texts!
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When I went through CARLOTA there in Coolidge, the Directer stated clearly that the test questions would all come from the books/texts! I made a GPA due to that information high enough to win the Academic Award there!
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He also stated clearly that since we got college credits for the police academy, we could use those to earn a criminal justice degree which I did with the assistance of a Pinal County Scholarship!
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It is a very good thing that the students know for sure where the materials they will be tested on is located!
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Good hunting!
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From the Fraser Institute
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/Homeschooling2.pdf


The last study by the Fraser Institute concludes:

•Home schooling continues to grow in popularity among parents in both Canada and the US.


•There are good reasons to be suspicious about easy comparisons between the test scores of home schooled and other students, since it is difficult to ensure comparable testing conditions or levels of student participation, among other reasons. However, the number of scholars and studies comparing the two groups continues to grow, bolstering older studies.


•Many studies, Canadian, American, and international, have found that home schooled students outperform students in both public and independent (private) schools. One US study found that home and private school students perform comparably well, and that both maintain a strong advantage over public school students.


•Home educated children enjoy no significant advantage if one or both parents are certified teachers.


•Surprisingly, several studies have found that home education may help eliminate the potential negative effects of certain socio-economic factors. Though children whose parents have university degrees score higher on tests of academic achievement than other home schooled children, home education appears to mitigate the harmful effect of low parental education levels. That is, public schools seem to educate children of poorly educated parents worse than do the poorly educated parents themselves. One study found that students taught at home by mothers who had never finished high school scored a full 55 percentile points higher than public school students from families with comparable education levels.


•Despite a widespread belief that home educated students are not adequately socialized, the preponderance of research suggests otherwise. The average Canadian home schooled student is regularly involved in eight social activities outside the home. Canadian home schoolers watch much less television than other children, and one researcher found that they displayed significantly fewer problems than public school children when observed in free play.


•Though the long-term effects of home schooling are less well studied, both Canadian and American findings on previously home schooled adults are encouraging. Canadian home-schooled students report a life satisfaction score well above their public school peers. American studies have found indications of a wide range of non-academic benefits from home schooling.
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxLeon,
Regardless whether you will admit it here in public or not, you are wrong. The districts do not decide what kids learn, the state does.

Every single teacher in this thread will back me up on this fact.

The state develops the standards that kids should know by the end of the year. The school district decides how to teach these standards (what text books, what reading program, what social studies study guide and such) That's it. The teacher is at the end of the chain and teaches the material in the manner the district asks. To insure the districts teach the standards there is a state mandated test once a year to see if the school is making AYP.




This is correct, as long as the state has standards, and the state implements the standardized testing, and that's what your being judged on. The state controls what the students will learn.
Mike
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: A Dana
From the Fraser Institute
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/Homeschooling2.pdf


The last study by the Fraser Institute concludes:

•Home schooling continues to grow in popularity among parents in both Canada and the US.


•There are good reasons to be suspicious about easy comparisons between the test scores of home schooled and other students, since it is difficult to ensure comparable testing conditions or levels of student participation, among other reasons. However, the number of scholars and studies comparing the two groups continues to grow, bolstering older studies.


•Many studies, Canadian, American, and international, have found that home schooled students outperform students in both public and independent (private) schools. One US study found that home and private school students perform comparably well, and that both maintain a strong advantage over public school students.


•Home educated children enjoy no significant advantage if one or both parents are certified teachers.


•Surprisingly, several studies have found that home education may help eliminate the potential negative effects of certain socio-economic factors. Though children whose parents have university degrees score higher on tests of academic achievement than other home schooled children, home education appears to mitigate the harmful effect of low parental education levels. That is, public schools seem to educate children of poorly educated parents worse than do the poorly educated parents themselves. One study found that students taught at home by mothers who had never finished high school scored a full 55 percentile points higher than public school students from families with comparable education levels.


•Despite a widespread belief that home educated students are not adequately socialized, the preponderance of research suggests otherwise. The average Canadian home schooled student is regularly involved in eight social activities outside the home. Canadian home schoolers watch much less television than other children, and one researcher found that they displayed significantly fewer problems than public school children when observed in free play.


•Though the long-term effects of home schooling are less well studied, both Canadian and American findings on previously home schooled adults are encouraging. Canadian home-schooled students report a life satisfaction score well above their public school peers. American studies have found indications of a wide range of non-academic benefits from home schooling.

The Fraser Institute, who conducted your study, also advocates the legalization of illegal drugs. Fantastic.
 
A desperate appeal to ridicule falls on deaf ears..you flunked logic maybe???

Now there is a subject I'd like to see on the curriculum list.( logic and critical thinking)
 
Quote:Regardless whether you will admit it here in public or not, you are wrong. The districts do not decide what kids learn, the state does.

There you go again.

I didn't say the districts decided what the kids learned, in fact what I said was: "In many (most?) states, school boards set the local curriculum within the standards/guidelines set by the state (who are governed by the standards/guidelines set by the feds)."


Or as you put it (now) "The school district decides how to teach these standards (what text books, what reading program, what social studies study guide and such) That's it."

In other words the curriculum.

What You clearly said then was:

"Curriculum is decided upon at a state level. No school board decides upon core subject curriculum- reading, writing , math, social studies, science.
Curriculum is decided upon at by the state department of education."

And then you reiterated it across a couple of posts.

Once again, regardless of whether or not you will admit it here in public, it's YOU who are wrong, and even though it's there in black and white for anyone to read you think you can get out of it with a condescending and patronizing post.

Doesn't work Skippy.

From the messages I get (even from teachers) it seems you've shown your true colors all too well here and folks have recognized you for the arrogant charlatan you are.
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxNo surprise it falls on deaf ears. I was just stating facts.


you have stated personal opinions with very little fact and make an appeal to criticism and tradition(logical fallacies) I would expect an educated man to argue better.





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Statistics. Digital document available at
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Van Galen, Jane A. (1991). “Ideologues and Pedagogues:
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A Dana, Scott has never been one to allow facts to get in the way of his opinions or statement as you can see above.

He's a 6th grade teacher and so obviously he is the preeminant expert on all facets of education nationally (just ask him).
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Originally Posted By: A Dana
From the Fraser Institute
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/Homeschooling2.pdf


The last study by the Fraser Institute concludes:

•Home schooling continues to grow in popularity among parents in both Canada and the US.


•There are good reasons to be suspicious about easy comparisons between the test scores of home schooled and other students, since it is difficult to ensure comparable testing conditions or levels of student participation, among other reasons. However, the number of scholars and studies comparing the two groups continues to grow, bolstering older studies.


•Many studies, Canadian, American, and international, have found that home schooled students outperform students in both public and independent (private) schools. One US study found that home and private school students perform comparably well, and that both maintain a strong advantage over public school students.


•Home educated children enjoy no significant advantage if one or both parents are certified teachers.


•Surprisingly, several studies have found that home education may help eliminate the potential negative effects of certain socio-economic factors. Though children whose parents have university degrees score higher on tests of academic achievement than other home schooled children, home education appears to mitigate the harmful effect of low parental education levels. That is, public schools seem to educate children of poorly educated parents worse than do the poorly educated parents themselves. One study found that students taught at home by mothers who had never finished high school scored a full 55 percentile points higher than public school students from families with comparable education levels.


•Despite a widespread belief that home educated students are not adequately socialized, the preponderance of research suggests otherwise. The average Canadian home schooled student is regularly involved in eight social activities outside the home. Canadian home schoolers watch much less television than other children, and one researcher found that they displayed significantly fewer problems than public school children when observed in free play.


•Though the long-term effects of home schooling are less well studied, both Canadian and American findings on previously home schooled adults are encouraging. Canadian home-schooled students report a life satisfaction score well above their public school peers. American studies have found indications of a wide range of non-academic benefits from home schooling.

you are wasting your time, facts mean nothing to our public school teacher friends.
 
When you've really got to Leon he will make a post just to insult you. No information on the topic at hand, just an insult. It's kinda funny to see him act like this yet sad that PM allows an area of their forum to house antics like this.

Who knows where the line is. Don't make it personal is said. Is the post above over the line? If I post a picture making fun of his truck driving its personal he says, yet he can post what he wishes and its ok. Is it because he's on the BOD of PM so anything goes?

If I posted some of the horrendous things people claimed from were true about Leon from and his overseas activities from Monster would that be over the line? Who knows what's personal and what's all in good fun. Can I just post some smiley faces before and after the insult or accusation and claim it is all fun and its ok?

Hmmmm...
 
Hey Scott, the difference is that I can cut and paste your own words to back up what I say "personally" about you. It's not "a post to insult you", it's a reminder of your own statements.


"Scott has never been one to allow facts to get in the way of his opinions or statement as you can see above."

Should I go back and find your assertion that experience and opinion trumps data (not allowing facts to get in the way of opinion)?



He's a 6th grade teacher and so obviously he is the preeminent expert on all facets of education nationally (just ask him).

Let's see now, how about the numerous times you've claimed that mine (and others) arguments should be ignored because you were the teacher, how did you put it? Oh yeah, "knee deep in the trenches"?

Heck even cited on this same page:

Because I am basically familiar with the topic being discussed I have seen and pointed out several mistakes you make when speaking of education. Let's read below as just 1 example.




You are too easy.
 
In the course of discussion on here you can't help but insult people within the framework of how you discuss topics. It's one of the methods you use to attempt to gain the upper hand. I could copy and past scores of insults you dish out and you would probably sit there and give the rational why every insult was justified.

I do the same sometimes and realize all it does is create resentment. The discussion of ideas doesn't have to accompanied by insults of people's choice of profession or personal attacks.
 
I don't think any studies or facts I've seen here or elsewhere have addressed the obvious. Homeschool teachers get to select their students and usually have some family ties (aka authority). Of course they should do as well or better than public school children. In fact, they should be doing way better than they are.

Let's try an experiment. For 10 years 10,000 random families are made to homeschool. For the same 10 years, 10,000 random families have their children go to public school. For the sake of comparison, let's say everything else is equal - in each group there are the same number of poor and rich, same number of college-educated, same number of different ethnic groups, etc. What do you think the results would be?
 
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