NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy...
- Thread starter GC
- Start date
GC
Well-known member
The Winchester load is a smaller size pellet with less shot in the load overall than any of the other high tech loads - never interested me. When I get done with my stash of the now discontinued Remington HD-BB's, the load I am itching to try out is the Federal Heavyweight BB Coyote load. The Federal is the densest of all the tungsten type loads and should really be a super load if a guy works around the Flite Control wad they use.
The price of the Heavyweight makes it too expensive to review. We need to set up a collection to fund a review. It's the only ammo I haven't patterened to at least test the point of impact(due to time and money). But I have taken several honkers with it a little past 50 yards.
i wish they would make some regular lead bb's or 4 buck with that flight control wad. 5 bucks a shell is outrageous. i loved the low recoil buck but its only for law enforcement now. i think they have some 3" mag 00 buck with that flight control wad. right now i believe thats the best bet on the market for us poor ole boys. at 40 yds with that low recoil 00 buck i got 8 of the 9 pellets in a 8" circle and always had 1 pellet fly about 5 inches high. how many 00 buck pellets do you guys think it takes in an 8" circle to perform well on a coyote?
I plan to test it with hopes its more effective than there heavy magnum turkey load. i just could not get that stuff to pattern as well as i wanted. 30yds was about my max effective range with that stuff with a modefied choke. the carlson black cloud full choke seem to throw it around like it was too tight or somethin. and there self defence 00buck with that versatite wade wasent even close to the federal flight control stuff. 2 pellets in an 8" circle at 40 yds with the versatite stuff. 8 pellets with the flight control
CrazyHorse66
New member
Originally Posted By: WedgyThe price of the Heavyweight makes it too expensive to review. We need to set up a collection to fund a review. It's the only ammo I haven't patterened to at least test the point of impact(due to time and money). But I have taken several honkers with it a little past 50 yards.
Here's a 52 yard pattern I shot through a modified RemChoke a couple of years ago. My POI was a little high but the pattern was good. The coffee can lid is 6":
Originally Posted By: 22cat i loved the low recoil buck but its only for law enforcement now.
I had no problems buying the LE1321B 15 pellet low recoil #1 Buck load, and I'm not an LEO....
Here's a 45 yard pattern shot with a 18.5" fixed mod barrel from my 870:
30 yards of the same:
If buckshot was legal here in OK, I'd use this day in, day out.
Here's a 52 yard pattern I shot through a modified RemChoke a couple of years ago. My POI was a little high but the pattern was good. The coffee can lid is 6":
Originally Posted By: 22cat i loved the low recoil buck but its only for law enforcement now.
I had no problems buying the LE1321B 15 pellet low recoil #1 Buck load, and I'm not an LEO....
Here's a 45 yard pattern shot with a 18.5" fixed mod barrel from my 870:
30 yards of the same:
If buckshot was legal here in OK, I'd use this day in, day out.
I love that stuff. my plan is to use my full choke and have the 00buck in my chamber while calling for one sneakin around past 40 yrds. and have the #4 buck to be the next shell in my mag. if one comes a flying by close i can pump the #4 buck in the chamber real quick and have a good spread flying at him. thats my plan any ways
Sparrowhawk
New member
Gearing up for a March snow goose control hunt. Already have an Xtrema2 28-in. And will pick up Benelli M2 Field 21-in. back-up this week.
Got that shorter bbl so it'll be handy for predators and 3-Gun, but want extended unported choke to keep noise down in blind.
Since I like Fed ammo think I'll prolly use Black Cloud Snow Goose load w FC wad, and using Fed FC loads later for predators.
Have also just learned Optima Plus and Crio tubes are interchangeable.
My fav e-shop has a Kick's Black Cloud Mod choke available w .723, but only Patternmaster Black Cloud Full .690.
Wondering if any of y'all have patterned w these chokes and FC wads loads of any size from Beretta OB & Benelli Crio bores and would share results.
Thank you.
Got that shorter bbl so it'll be handy for predators and 3-Gun, but want extended unported choke to keep noise down in blind.
Since I like Fed ammo think I'll prolly use Black Cloud Snow Goose load w FC wad, and using Fed FC loads later for predators.
Have also just learned Optima Plus and Crio tubes are interchangeable.
My fav e-shop has a Kick's Black Cloud Mod choke available w .723, but only Patternmaster Black Cloud Full .690.
Wondering if any of y'all have patterned w these chokes and FC wads loads of any size from Beretta OB & Benelli Crio bores and would share results.
Thank you.
Last edited:
Interesting new wad from Winchester
http://randywakeman.com/WinchesterShotshellRevolutionAATrAAcker.htm
Winchester's New Shotshell Revolution: AA TrAAcker
At the 2013 SHOT Show in Las Vegas, Winchester introduced their new target shotshell for tracking the shot cloud and providing instant feedback on where you need to be to improve your shooting: the AA TrAAcker loads. This one is a really solid, innovative idea.
It is available in 12 gauge 1-1/8 oz. loads, with black or orange wads. Rather than a conventional wad that quickly drops away, the trAAcker wad retains some shot and is designed to closely follow the center of your pattern. If you miss, you'll know why and where.
For years, target shooters have insisted on trying to “read” their breaks, a practice that is generally worthless, a waste of time, and can be misleading. Neil Winston has put a lot of time into the matter as has Dr. A. C. Jones. It takes only one pellet to break a clay target and the human animal cannot reliably read breaks or tell with any meaning where the shotshell pattern was. We constantly kid ourselves into thinking we can; anything to avoid properly patterning our guns and so forth. Well-meaning shooters offer advice that sometimes is so off the mark that the budding shooter may become bewildered, frustrated, or a bit of both.
It was a cold day for the Las Vegas area, and unusually windy, but the folks from Winchester along with everyone's favorite Olympic Champion, Kim Rhode, was on hand to demonstrate the new TrAAcker loads at the 2013 Shot Show. The audio isn't very good due to the wind (okay, it is horrible), but here is an example of what they look like.
A bright day in the desert with a light blue sky meant the black traacker loads were the easiest to spot. Orange would likely be better on darker days, against trees, etc. Although Kim gently scolded me that I was “supposed to miss,” that isn't instinctive or intuitive. As far as I'm concerned, neither is doing anything but keeping hard focus on the target. Perhaps the best use of these loads is for your shooting buddy to give you instant, reliable, helpful feedback. No more wild speculation or worse yet, suggesting you were behind the bird when you actually shot over it and so forth.
Winchester has shown the wad does track the center of the pattern accurately, as you can see above just prior to wad impact. Unlike some tracer round attempts, you won't get blooper loads, they seem to show the center of the pattern, and best of all the price is only a dollar or so more per box of 25 than standard AA loads. This is outstanding product from Winchester, one that they should have no problem doing extremely well with. I can also see the TrAAcker AA loads as getting a lot of use on the dove field, for those of us that still don't always pick up quite as many doves as we do empty hulls.
It is very, very easy to see in person whether a miss was to the left, right, above or below. No question about it. It does work and work well . . . if it didn't, it never would have been released for this is the type of item that if offered no clear benefit wouldn't sell more than a box or two to an individual. Olin spent a small fortune in development, hardly just to sell a couple of boxes of shells at a low premium of a buck a box. It will sell like crazy and become a standard training aid. It sure beats the old "by gosh and by golly," reading breaks, etc.
I wouldn't call it the universal panacea, for it is far more valuable as a tool for the observer or the instructor than it is for the shooter. Now, an instructor or shooting buddy can give accurate feedback like never before . . . and it is far more helpful than a phosphorus or magnesium tracer, without the fire hazard.
If you send your wad through an ink blot, you can be sure you're on the bird. The distance from the tracker wad will vary in concert with distance, but this is of no particular impediment. Drilling those problem presentations allows you to perfect them and as with this type of training aid, the wad distance for a specific target presentation will be repeatable shot to shot. In my case, hard focus is always on the bird so it is my shooting partner that has the valuable feedback and vice-versa. There is a usable range limitation as well; whether it is 35 yards or 45 yards I can't tell you as of yet. There is little question that this is a valuable tool; just how valuable will reveal itself as time goes on.
Copyright 2013 by Randy Wakeman. All Rights Reserved.
http://randywakeman.com/WinchesterShotshellRevolutionAATrAAcker.htm
Winchester's New Shotshell Revolution: AA TrAAcker
At the 2013 SHOT Show in Las Vegas, Winchester introduced their new target shotshell for tracking the shot cloud and providing instant feedback on where you need to be to improve your shooting: the AA TrAAcker loads. This one is a really solid, innovative idea.
It is available in 12 gauge 1-1/8 oz. loads, with black or orange wads. Rather than a conventional wad that quickly drops away, the trAAcker wad retains some shot and is designed to closely follow the center of your pattern. If you miss, you'll know why and where.
For years, target shooters have insisted on trying to “read” their breaks, a practice that is generally worthless, a waste of time, and can be misleading. Neil Winston has put a lot of time into the matter as has Dr. A. C. Jones. It takes only one pellet to break a clay target and the human animal cannot reliably read breaks or tell with any meaning where the shotshell pattern was. We constantly kid ourselves into thinking we can; anything to avoid properly patterning our guns and so forth. Well-meaning shooters offer advice that sometimes is so off the mark that the budding shooter may become bewildered, frustrated, or a bit of both.
It was a cold day for the Las Vegas area, and unusually windy, but the folks from Winchester along with everyone's favorite Olympic Champion, Kim Rhode, was on hand to demonstrate the new TrAAcker loads at the 2013 Shot Show. The audio isn't very good due to the wind (okay, it is horrible), but here is an example of what they look like.
A bright day in the desert with a light blue sky meant the black traacker loads were the easiest to spot. Orange would likely be better on darker days, against trees, etc. Although Kim gently scolded me that I was “supposed to miss,” that isn't instinctive or intuitive. As far as I'm concerned, neither is doing anything but keeping hard focus on the target. Perhaps the best use of these loads is for your shooting buddy to give you instant, reliable, helpful feedback. No more wild speculation or worse yet, suggesting you were behind the bird when you actually shot over it and so forth.
Winchester has shown the wad does track the center of the pattern accurately, as you can see above just prior to wad impact. Unlike some tracer round attempts, you won't get blooper loads, they seem to show the center of the pattern, and best of all the price is only a dollar or so more per box of 25 than standard AA loads. This is outstanding product from Winchester, one that they should have no problem doing extremely well with. I can also see the TrAAcker AA loads as getting a lot of use on the dove field, for those of us that still don't always pick up quite as many doves as we do empty hulls.
It is very, very easy to see in person whether a miss was to the left, right, above or below. No question about it. It does work and work well . . . if it didn't, it never would have been released for this is the type of item that if offered no clear benefit wouldn't sell more than a box or two to an individual. Olin spent a small fortune in development, hardly just to sell a couple of boxes of shells at a low premium of a buck a box. It will sell like crazy and become a standard training aid. It sure beats the old "by gosh and by golly," reading breaks, etc.
I wouldn't call it the universal panacea, for it is far more valuable as a tool for the observer or the instructor than it is for the shooter. Now, an instructor or shooting buddy can give accurate feedback like never before . . . and it is far more helpful than a phosphorus or magnesium tracer, without the fire hazard.
If you send your wad through an ink blot, you can be sure you're on the bird. The distance from the tracker wad will vary in concert with distance, but this is of no particular impediment. Drilling those problem presentations allows you to perfect them and as with this type of training aid, the wad distance for a specific target presentation will be repeatable shot to shot. In my case, hard focus is always on the bird so it is my shooting partner that has the valuable feedback and vice-versa. There is a usable range limitation as well; whether it is 35 yards or 45 yards I can't tell you as of yet. There is little question that this is a valuable tool; just how valuable will reveal itself as time goes on.
Copyright 2013 by Randy Wakeman. All Rights Reserved.
Also an interesting bit on ported chokes.
http://randywakeman.com/WhyPortinginaShotgunApplicationDoesNotWork.htm
Why Porting in a Shotgun Application Does Not Work
Although porting a shotgun barrel has been around for a very long time, it doesn't do much to reduce recoil. It does nothing to improve patterns, something rudimentary interior ballistics has shown for a very long time. High speed video has proved and reproved what was already shown by spark shadowgraphs from Ed Lowry years ago. Yet, despite all this well-known, well-accepted, peer-reviewed, proved and reproved information, porting still clumsily rears its ugly head from time to time. You might think there is some evil conspiracy to bring back the grace and beauty of the Cutts Compensator, or some conniving by the hearing aid industry to destroy the hearing of innocent Americans? The wonder choke has been “30 Percent More Effective” for a very long time, as you can see from this 1956 Poly-Choke ad-brag.
For starters, let's consider the .22 rimfire. Though it has a substantially higher breech pressure than a shotgun shell, the pressure rapidly falls off. It falls off to the point where past 15-16 inches of barrel length, it may actually lose velocity. A .22 rimfire doesn't burn much powder and after the powder decays in that first 15 inches or so, we have a combination of bullet drag and air pressure (the air in the barrel) that can combine to slow the projectile down slightly.
In a shotshell, peak pressure occurs inside the shell casing. Most of the propellant is consumed in the first 18-20 inches of barrel. Beyond that, pressure and acceleration fall off rapidly, to the point where muzzle pressure can be only a five hundred to a thousand psi, or less, according to H.P. White data. There are many, many sources for this information. A good one is Neil Winston. You can read Neil's study by downloading the PDF from his website: http://www.claytargettesting.com/study2/Study2.3.pdf. In Neil's example, peak pressure drops off after only seven-tenths of one millisecond, falling below 2000 psi at 1.5 milliseconds. The shot leaves the muzzle long after, comparatively, at about 3.5 milliseconds.
There isn't much acceleration going on downstream. This is evidenced by the tiny velocity differences between 24, 26, 28, and 30 inch shotgun barrels. There isn't much pressure left to do much of anything. Additionally, there is slight friction from the wad and again, our empty barrel isn't really empty . . . it is full of air that has resistance and must be pushed out of the barrel. This wouldn't apply in outer space, but I'm referring to conventional earth-bound applications.
The ridiculous idea is that the wad is driven into the shot column. Well, obviously it is, but significantly only at initial set-back and the first several inches of aggressive acceleration. The further downstream we get from the muzzle, the once 8000 – 9000 psi breech pressure diminishes to trivia. Shot and wad leave the muzzle simultaneously, and of course there is still wad pressure on the shot, with the shot still being forced towards the base and sides of the shot cup, just as always. In the case of conventional wads, the petals open instantly like giant air brakes, the shot cloud continuing undisturbed. Trying to relief the pressure behind the wad is fruitless as there is scant little pressure that could be relieved and the pressure in front of the shot, the atmosphere, cannot be. This is why porting is one of those eternal Pet Rocks of Shotgunning. It cannot do anything for patterns and it doesn't.
As for the bogus claims of recoil reduction and reduction in muzzle rise, it can't be said that it doesn't work, just that it doesn't work significantly or noticeably. To the extent that porting reduces weight, it must actually increase recoil although that is equally imperceptible.
Ed Lowry's spark shadowgraphs were able to show the effects of choke accurately and vividly. While at one time, Cylinder chokes were thought to have shorter shot strings, it was Full choke that did, due to simple (but overlooked) wind drafting. Since the spark shadowgraph days, high speed video has re-proved what Ed Lowry was able to show long ago.
Above, a representative pressure curve from the M193 5.56mm cartridge. With many center fire cartridges, porting does indeed work to reduce recoil as you may have 20-30 times the pressure to work with. Center fire rifle muzzle break results do not translate to shotguns however, a vastly different application.
http://randywakeman.com/WhyPortinginaShotgunApplicationDoesNotWork.htm
Why Porting in a Shotgun Application Does Not Work
Although porting a shotgun barrel has been around for a very long time, it doesn't do much to reduce recoil. It does nothing to improve patterns, something rudimentary interior ballistics has shown for a very long time. High speed video has proved and reproved what was already shown by spark shadowgraphs from Ed Lowry years ago. Yet, despite all this well-known, well-accepted, peer-reviewed, proved and reproved information, porting still clumsily rears its ugly head from time to time. You might think there is some evil conspiracy to bring back the grace and beauty of the Cutts Compensator, or some conniving by the hearing aid industry to destroy the hearing of innocent Americans? The wonder choke has been “30 Percent More Effective” for a very long time, as you can see from this 1956 Poly-Choke ad-brag.
For starters, let's consider the .22 rimfire. Though it has a substantially higher breech pressure than a shotgun shell, the pressure rapidly falls off. It falls off to the point where past 15-16 inches of barrel length, it may actually lose velocity. A .22 rimfire doesn't burn much powder and after the powder decays in that first 15 inches or so, we have a combination of bullet drag and air pressure (the air in the barrel) that can combine to slow the projectile down slightly.
In a shotshell, peak pressure occurs inside the shell casing. Most of the propellant is consumed in the first 18-20 inches of barrel. Beyond that, pressure and acceleration fall off rapidly, to the point where muzzle pressure can be only a five hundred to a thousand psi, or less, according to H.P. White data. There are many, many sources for this information. A good one is Neil Winston. You can read Neil's study by downloading the PDF from his website: http://www.claytargettesting.com/study2/Study2.3.pdf. In Neil's example, peak pressure drops off after only seven-tenths of one millisecond, falling below 2000 psi at 1.5 milliseconds. The shot leaves the muzzle long after, comparatively, at about 3.5 milliseconds.
There isn't much acceleration going on downstream. This is evidenced by the tiny velocity differences between 24, 26, 28, and 30 inch shotgun barrels. There isn't much pressure left to do much of anything. Additionally, there is slight friction from the wad and again, our empty barrel isn't really empty . . . it is full of air that has resistance and must be pushed out of the barrel. This wouldn't apply in outer space, but I'm referring to conventional earth-bound applications.
The ridiculous idea is that the wad is driven into the shot column. Well, obviously it is, but significantly only at initial set-back and the first several inches of aggressive acceleration. The further downstream we get from the muzzle, the once 8000 – 9000 psi breech pressure diminishes to trivia. Shot and wad leave the muzzle simultaneously, and of course there is still wad pressure on the shot, with the shot still being forced towards the base and sides of the shot cup, just as always. In the case of conventional wads, the petals open instantly like giant air brakes, the shot cloud continuing undisturbed. Trying to relief the pressure behind the wad is fruitless as there is scant little pressure that could be relieved and the pressure in front of the shot, the atmosphere, cannot be. This is why porting is one of those eternal Pet Rocks of Shotgunning. It cannot do anything for patterns and it doesn't.
As for the bogus claims of recoil reduction and reduction in muzzle rise, it can't be said that it doesn't work, just that it doesn't work significantly or noticeably. To the extent that porting reduces weight, it must actually increase recoil although that is equally imperceptible.
Ed Lowry's spark shadowgraphs were able to show the effects of choke accurately and vividly. While at one time, Cylinder chokes were thought to have shorter shot strings, it was Full choke that did, due to simple (but overlooked) wind drafting. Since the spark shadowgraph days, high speed video has re-proved what Ed Lowry was able to show long ago.
Above, a representative pressure curve from the M193 5.56mm cartridge. With many center fire cartridges, porting does indeed work to reduce recoil as you may have 20-30 times the pressure to work with. Center fire rifle muzzle break results do not translate to shotguns however, a vastly different application.
Rich Cronk
New member
Wedgy,
It probably is not true with all shotguns, but my Beretta Extrema2 seems to shoot better patterns with ported chokes. I think maybe the porting retards the wad somewhat.
Now Wedgy, I have been wanting to ask you something so here goes----Do you still have that Wedgy? Maybe you could have a friend pull it out for ya. LOL
It probably is not true with all shotguns, but my Beretta Extrema2 seems to shoot better patterns with ported chokes. I think maybe the porting retards the wad somewhat.
Now Wedgy, I have been wanting to ask you something so here goes----Do you still have that Wedgy? Maybe you could have a friend pull it out for ya. LOL
Rich Cronk
New member
Thanks for explaining that Wedgy. The visual thoughts that pop into my old brain when I see one of your posts were hilarious.
Rich Cronk
New member
Originally Posted By: GCA lot of very knowledgeable folks don't put much stock in Wakeman’s blogging. I sort the wheat from the chaff out of his musings. I think he has some really good solid information here and there.
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Oh yes, there was good information in his above post and I appreciate every bit of it. I was all wrapped up in thinking about his wedgy when I read it the first time though. Mr. Wakeman is obviously very learned up about shotguns, and I hope he posts more.
------------------------------------
Oh yes, there was good information in his above post and I appreciate every bit of it. I was all wrapped up in thinking about his wedgy when I read it the first time though. Mr. Wakeman is obviously very learned up about shotguns, and I hope he posts more.
One of Wakemans articles about shot string was pretty interesting to me. I shoot a .410 in skeet league and one of the guys was saying it has a much longer shot string. So much longer that the birds are just flying into it. How long can it be at skeet shots, 100' at longest shot ?? His article was from some testing guy from Winchester(?) had his wife drive by perpendicular towing a box trailer at 35mph. He shot the side of the trailer to see how the shot string would spead out. If there was this long shot string it should make an elipse on the flat wall of the trailer, instead of a cirlce. It was basically round, dispelling the myth. I would love to see that tested !!!! LOL Shooting at your wifes station wagon.... good times
doggin coyotes
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: Wedgy Shooting at your wifes station wagon.... good times
Shooting at your ex wifes Toyota Prius, better times.
Shooting at your ex wifes Toyota Prius, better times.