Beat a dead Horse What Method on Load Development

I'll step in and say how I work up a load hopefully not get blasted from those that do not agree.

All this that I am about to say is with a rifle with no issues. If the rifle has issues no need to waist my time till I get the issue fixed.

#1 I pick a bullet that I think will do what I want it to do. Whether it be shooting Paper Targets for the wholly Grail or an adequate load for animals.

#2 I'll research powder selection and pick one that seem to preform in the cartridge and bullet weight in more than one manual ETC.

#3 I will start my powder charges at least 2 Grains below Maximum from the Manual of the brand bullet I am using and work up to the maximum charge weight in the manual in 1/2 grain steps. I load 5 rounds per charge weight of powder. I then shoot all 5 rounds of each charge weight using different targets for each charge weight (starting with the lowest charge weight) ETC till I have shot all rounds ALWAYS looking for signs of pressure.
If I reach the book max. with no signs of pressure and the group is getting better as the charge goes up I will load as before going over max by 1-1/2 grains or more total. Till accuracy falls off or signs of presure raises it's ugly head and act accordingly. I'll set the seating depth per Manual to start with unless I know the rifle seems to prefer a certain OAL per bullet comparator.

I choose the load that grouped the best and try again with 10 rounds, If it proves to be a consistent group I will load up 5 rounds .4 of a Gr. lower then add .2 of a GR to that. then I will load up 5 Rds of each .2 Gr.and .4 Gr. higher and test them and choose accordingly.

Then I play with seating depth Till I find what shoots the best. If a load improves by adjusting the seating depth I may once again tweak the powder charge.


I let the barrel cool between groups.

I never worry about how much time it takes.

Now what I would like to know how can other ways of working up a load arrive at a better load than the one I arrived at.
Another way may be faster but if we wind up with the same load what is the big difference.

I have read about the OTC and the OCW or what ever they are. At first I thought "hey this just may be the cats meow of working up loads"((nothing to do with Catshooter)). But the more I turned it over in my pee picking little brain the less sense it made to me. So I just kept doing it as Frank Sinatra said "my way"
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I guess what I am trying to say if it works for you , Go ahead and DO IT. Whether there is any advantage or truth to it or not.
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No skin off my butt.

DAB
 
After much research through-out this wonderful thing called the interwebs, I have come to the conclusion that this new (to me) method known as OCW is nothing more than a quick fix for folks who cannot maintain a -/+ .5 grain charge in their throws/tricklers and these same folks should have a padlock installed on their reloading room doors and the key thrown away.
Why on earth would you waste time/components on finding a load that is the most forgiving for powder charge weight screw-ups???

Please correct me if I am mis-understanding this OCW technique.
 
Originally Posted By: C.Jay OCW is nothing more than a quick fix for folks who cannot maintain a -/+ .5 grain charge in their throws/tricklers and these same folks should have a padlock installed on their reloading room doors and the key thrown away.
Why on earth would you waste time/components on finding a load that is the most forgiving for powder charge weight screw-ups???

Please correct me if I am mis-understanding this OCW technique.

The OCW test is to for finding a load that works great but not the greatest. It is not in case you can't keep a steady charge! We all know every powder thrower/dispenser can get better accuracy then that.

If any of you adjust your charges with the temp the OCW takes care of that for you.

We all SHOULD know that if your so called "best load" shoots great until you add +/- 1 grain then it is not the true best load.

The point is most of you seem to think that the OCW test is going to give you hole groups! While it may if you get lucky it is not the reasoning behind the test. It is to cover your A$$ in case you over look something you will still be able to hit what your aiming at. I.E. you find your "prefect load" while your shooting in hot AZ but your brilliant [beeep] must have forgot that your hunt for wolf is in cold MT or Canada. OCW to the rescue while your "prefect load" fails and you go home empty handed because you knew what you were doing this whole time!

Strait from Dan's page

Why would I want that?

Well, variations in brass cases, powder lots, outside temperature--and other things can cause your load to increase or decrease in pressure. With the OCW load, you're covered for a significant amount of pressure differences that may come into play. If I'd gone with the 39.2 grain charge (the sub 1/2" group), a *slight* rise in pressure, brought on by an odd brass case or a hot day, etc., would have resulted in a 1 MOA deviation high and right of my POA.

After you have positively identified the OCW, you can then adjust the seating depth to fine tune the load for ultimate accuracy. After doing so, you can be assured the final load recipe will be a consistent, solid performer.

Don't hate or call names on other shooters because of the way they work up their loads. If you don't see the point of it maybe you should at least give it a try then you may make sense of it.

Remember the big thread about 3 or 5 shot groups??? Then all the sudden it comes in to 10 shot groups and then a 30 shot group spread out over 1 months time. Come on where does it end guys?

Now after all this I will say I do not use the OCW or ladder test.
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I load up like most and shoot 3 shot groups pick the best ones with least vert. and load up 5 and shoot on a different day. After I pick the best out of them I play with seating depth until I'm content.
 
Originally Posted By: ScalloperWould it be advisable to use a lead sled or similar with an air plunger to push the trigger so you could at least eliminate shooter era while working up loads?

Sure would but then you might as well test in a climate controlled room also. Then just remember anytime you want to shoot the same get all the stuff and out and go back indoors.

There will always be shooter error! The thing is to work on the shooter to make them better and lessen the chances of error.

The joys of the internet is that everyone thinks they should be trying so hard to compete with everyone groups to try and prove their rifle is better then the others.

What's the point of taking you out of the picture? Isn't that the whole reason you do it is because YOU enjoy it??

Get out and shoot while enjoying your time!
 
OCW, Ladder, or whatever method used, it's still best to know how close you are to your gun's maximum. If you are right on the ragged edge then you need to take that into consideration. That's why the suggestion to simply start 2gr or 10% below max and keep working untill you find pressure signs. Then go back and review your best groups.

It comes back to a subject of stacking tolerances. If you are testing on a 70deg day, using whatever method to throw charges, and unsorted brass, you may be well on the way to a nasty suprise some 105deg day. Unless you know where your max is and how close you are to it, you know not one of the most important things.
 
Originally Posted By: dmpowderOriginally Posted By: ScalloperWould it be advisable to use a lead sled or similar with an air plunger to push the trigger so you could at least eliminate shooter era while working up loads?

Sure would but then you might as well test in a climate controlled room also. Then just remember anytime you want to shoot the same get all the stuff and out and go back indoors.

There will always be shooter error! The thing is to work on the shooter to make them better and lessen the chances of error.

The joys of the internet is that everyone thinks they should be trying so hard to compete with everyone groups to try and prove their rifle is better then the others.

What's the point of taking you out of the picture? Isn't that the whole reason you do it is because YOU enjoy it??

Get out and shoot while enjoying your time!
It just seems like a way to find out how well the rifel/load groups without as much shooter error. Then when you get back on the bench you should know how well your doing your job or if your as good of a shot as you thought you were. Just for load development
 
Lots of good info here. However I didn't read much on the cleaning regimine other then Cat saying they need to be clean. My question is how many rounds between cleanings, 10,20,30? Do you do a complete clean say between 10 rounds or maybe just run a patch or 3 between 10 rounds? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but I'd like to know. Personally what I've been doing is run aprox. 20 rounds and then give 'er a good cleaning.
 
Originally Posted By: dan brothers

Even if I were an idiot... you are the most unhappy rude man I've ever come across.

If this is the "most" you've ever come across, you haven't been around much. And you are kind of an idiot.
 
Originally Posted By: ScalloperWould it be advisable to use a lead sled or similar with an air plunger to push the trigger so you could at least eliminate shooter era while working up loads?

People sure like to make things into a whole lot more than they are. If you're worried about shooter error, pay more attention to technique.
 
Ladder, OCW.....there's no magic in that stuff. People who think that using those "special techniques" they'll somehow arrive at a different conclusion about what the gun likes.....are they nuts? There's a lot of nonsense out there and a lot of fools who suck it all in and then regurgitate to others.
 
The trouble with the OCW test is you can not get the same results twice. You fall into the trap of basing your results on one test. Load and test the same five, three shot groups and you will get a totaly different result. BTDT

Especially out of a one MOA rifle.

Shooting one great group, and making this your pet load, without further testing is a trap.

Like several have said, research before you load, may be more important, than just picking something off the shelf, that you have on hand, that might work.

I do things the old way, work up to maximum, on the way up I look for where it shoots the best. Sometimes that is maximum, sometimes somewhere below that. I want low ES and SD on the chrono as well.

Good luck with your testing, however you do it, but there are no shortcuts.
 
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesShooting one great group, and making this your pet load, without further testing is a trap.

I concur. Try again on a different day and different weather and see how it shoots. I would also add, when you do find the right combo of powder/primer/bullet, you may find additional value playing with seating depths.
 
Originally Posted By: Jerry TracyLots of good info here. However I didn't read much on the cleaning regimine other then Cat saying they need to be clean. My question is how many rounds between cleanings, 10,20,30? Do you do a complete clean say between 10 rounds or maybe just run a patch or 3 between 10 rounds? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but I'd like to know. Personally what I've been doing is run aprox. 20 rounds and then give 'er a good cleaning.

Cleaning a rifle is just like working up a load for it! The rifle will tell you when it needs cleaned.




Hint STOP cleaning it after 20 rounds! Chances are your doing more harm then you are good. But it's your rifle and do as you see fit!
 
Originally Posted By: Ackman And you are kind of an idiot.

The pot calling the kettle black! Don't you think???



Originally Posted By: ninehorsesThe trouble with the OCW test is you can not get the same results twice. You fall into the trap of basing your results on one test. Load and test the same five, three shot groups and you will get a totaly different result. BTDT

Especially out of a one MOA rifle.

Shooting one great group, and making this your pet load, without further testing is a trap.

Like several have said, research before you load, may be more important, than just picking something off the shelf, that you have on hand, that might work.

I do things the old way, work up to maximum, on the way up I look for where it shoots the best. Sometimes that is maximum, sometimes somewhere below that. I want low ES and SD on the chrono as well.

Good luck with your testing, however you do it, but there are no shortcuts.



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Again guys the OCW is not to get you 1 hole groups so stop trying to say it is wrong or a trap.


Lets see how can I put this as plain and simple as it can be..........

OK lets say you don't reload your stuck with factory loaded ammo. So now you want to see which FACTORY load works the best in your rifle. You go out and buy a bunch of different brands of ammo to try out. Your out at the range blasting box after box until you run all out of ammo. You then look at all the pretty little holes you made and pick which brand shot the best and you stick to that brand.

Now, we all know that no matter how many boxes of that ammo you buy you will not shoot the same groups everytime right???? But it still shoots good so you keep using it even though you won't be able to go out and win a benchrest comp with it. It's ok though because your not a benchrest shooter your a hunter or steel ringer.

That is how the OCW test works! So again stop trying to make it out to be something it was NOT intended to be! Pretty simple don't you think????


NOW if you can not understand this then you my friends are the idiots!
 
Well, after reading 6 pages of this, I guess I'm on the old dogs side!

Tried the OCW and seemed like a waste of time and ammo! But I don't shoot factory ammo either.
 
Quote:people sure like to make things into a whole lot more than they are. If you're worried about shooter error, pay more attention to technique....Ackman, Not trying to change your opinion or mind, but in answer to the original question,
Quote:Would it be advisable to use a lead sled or similar with an air plunger to push the trigger so you could at least eliminate shooter era while working up loads?...If your technique is questionable (as many are), why would you not want to reduce 'human error' out of load development when it comes time to make the test shots...??? I'm asking for my own edification...since that is the concept that I've always applied..

Once I know the load is the best I can do, then I know that anything with lower results has to be my shooting skills and I can work on them from that point...If my initial load is bad, effort toward improving my technique is really a waste of time and becomes an exercise in futility....
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogWell, after reading 6 pages of this, I guess I'm on the old dogs side!

Tried the OCW and seemed like a waste of time and ammo! But I don't shoot factory ammo either.

You read all six pages ?...hehhe The last page was enough for me, so here`s my kick to the dead horse based on that last page;
Generally I start at the min load and work up to max using 3 rounds (sometimes five), if I find something that looks like it might be good I load additional rnds to see for sure. When a load is close I might try changing powder a tenth or two, and play with seating depth.
The only `shortcuts` I might take on ocasion, is to look at Sierra load data to see what is listed for Accuracy Load, and note the velocity of it. The * most accurate load tested..might give a clue as well.
AND FINALLY..for sure a rifle rest of some type or at least a set of sand bags is going to be very benificial to finding that accurate load...now if you so shakey as to need something to anchor your rifle down ALONG WITH some type of hydraulic thingy to pull the trigger, then perhaps it`s time to look for a new hobby..?..lol
 
Originally Posted By: Hookedif you so shakey as to need something to anchor your rifle down ALONG WITH some type of hydraulic thingy to pull the trigger, then perhaps it`s time to look for a new hobby..?..lol

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