Beat a dead Horse What Method on Load Development

Dan has it down pretty well, but I would make one correction or clarification. You are NOT looking for the best groups. You are looking for the 3 loads that when the 3 shots are triangulated, the center of that triangle (POI), is the same or very close. If you look at mine above, you can see the POI for all loads from 39.2 to 40.4 have a fairly consistant triangulated POI. From there, you can do like Dan said and tweek it with COAL and such if you feel like you need to.

I think what this really comes down to, and where we have probably not done a good job of answering your question is in the fact that we don't know what you are loading for. Obviously, if you are a 600 yard match shooter you are going to measure and be meticulous with every load, the OCW is not the way to go. If you are loading up 500 rounds for a PD shoot on the other hand...
 
Originally Posted By: Webopper

".... If you are loading up 500 rounds for a PD shoot on the other hand...

Then it is STILL not the way to go. IF you want to load for your deer rifle, it's fine (deer are big!!)
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Webopper

".... If you are loading up 500 rounds for a PD shoot on the other hand...

Then it is STILL not the way to go. IF you want to load for your deer rifle, it's fine (deer are big!!)

Not sure what I did to rub you the wrong way, if I did. Not understanding why you are choosing to nit-pick all of my posts in this thread. You keep throwing those out there, but not offering an alternative approach or concrete reasons or even just your theories on why you feel it's flawed.

That load at 38.2 shot just over .5MOA (one time, that's the only time I shot it). My OCW load shot a consistant .7 after I tweeked it (much like that 40.4 load did). I would be curious to know at what point that .2MOA is going to ruin a PD hunt. [beeep], most people can't hold .2 in the field. Then when you consider the time I saved loading those 500 rounds...
 
Wepopper... you are correct in the triangle. I forgot to add that point about drawing a line between the bullet holes and then measuring out to each hole from their triangle's center point... glad you brought that up. And how each group aligns itself with the other groups POI. The three groups should group at the same place.

And.... very good point about adding constructive criticism... instead of just criticism.
 
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Originally Posted By: willy1947

Lot of good ideas here.

One thing missing, bullet type and twist rate of barrel.

He's not looking for a load there Willy, he's looking for a method by which to develop his load. That's why there are no particulars around that...
 
My method could be described better as the OCD method
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. I always try and trickle every charge to .1gr accuracy. It doesn't matter if I'm loading 5 or 500 rounds. Yes, it takes longer, especially since I use only a mechanical thrower, trickler, and balance beam, but I have never loaded straight out of the thrower and don't see that changing. I loaded 400rnds for a hunt for coyotes and prairie dogs to feed through my AR this way. I just started well before my trip and had time to spare. I prep brass in an assembly line fashion and when it comes time to charge and seat bullets, I can charge 100-200 prepped cases in a night if I stick to it. I usually have sized and primed brass sitting around waiting to finish to speed up the process. I load every cartridge the same way whether I'm looking for the one hole paper group out of my varminter or for my buddies hunting loads in his deer rifle. Dropping powder is one part of reloading I don't get into a hurry on and don't accept well enough. Now if I was a competitive shooter in something like IPSC, CASS, or 3 gun I would have to do it for pistol rounds due to the constant volume of shooting. I still don't think I could do it for a rifle though.

Looking at the targets for the 4064 loads listed above, not knowing anything about the shooter or the circumstances, my first observation was that there were maybe 2 decent showings for that particular gun and the shooter messed up the one as noted. When you see shooter error on a target, then you can start to interject that into group sizes and shape. I saw what could be read as trigger control issues with left to right stringing. It also could be read as wind deflection from left to right on the same target given the location tendency of all the groups. Some groups have vertical stringing which also could be due to improper torque or bedding and floating issues showing with heat and improper loading of the bipod or support. I believe load tests are like ink blot interpretations. To me, some of these groups seem like they have more stringing than spread, but that's just me. Every person sees what they have in mind and uses it in their own way.

I usually hit my loads early on in development and use to think I have a golden horseshoe stuck somewhere, but it seems to happen consistently. I'm usually surprised if I don't have a great showing in the first 30rnds fired. I think the trick to it is putting in the majority of the work before you ever drop the first grain of powder and doing your research and homework. I obsess over web available data and manuals before I even make my component purchases.
 
Originally Posted By: rickybYes I know I can go back and look for these topics but I want to ask. What method do you use working up a load..

1) When working up a load do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr.
2) Shoot a ladder test
3) OR use the optimal charge weight load development.




1) Do like ackleyman and catshooter and several others tell you. Load up to past book max and just stop when the gun/brass say to stop. Don't be afraid to go a couple gr. past what the manual says is maximum.....you don't have to shoot them, but you can't try 'em if you ain't got 'em. A few times I've stopped at 1 - 1.5gr over max and found that it should've been more.

2) Ladder tests have shown me nothing, a waste of time. Far as I'm concerned it's just BS.

3) That OCW thing is complete BS. And the guy who writes all that crap is in love with seeing himself in print. That whole thing is an even bigger waste of time.

Just do the #1 method and you'll find an "optimal charge weight", which is a fancy-pseudo way of saying "the best load." And whether it's on the "up" node or "down" node or the "whatever" node is irrelevant when all the holes are touching.
 
Thanks guys for all of the post. Ackleyman had pm'ed me his method before and cleaning out some old post I deleted it. Now that I have it on a post it will be easier to find.

I pay close attention to what a few people say on this board and Ackleyman, Catshooter and OT are in the few. If those guys think it's a waste of time than I want be trying them. Rick
 
Originally Posted By: WebopperOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Webopper

".... If you are loading up 500 rounds for a PD shoot on the other hand...

Then it is STILL not the way to go. IF you want to load for your deer rifle, it's fine (deer are big!!)

Not sure what I did to rub you the wrong way, if I did. Not understanding why you are choosing to nit-pick all of my posts in this thread. You keep throwing those out there, but not offering an alternative approach or concrete reasons or even just your theories on why you feel it's flawed.

That load at 38.2 shot just over .5MOA (one time, that's the only time I shot it). My OCW load shot a consistant .7 after I tweeked it (much like that 40.4 load did). I would be curious to know at what point that .2MOA is going to ruin a PD hunt. [beeep], most people can't hold .2 in the field. Then when you consider the time I saved loading those 500 rounds...



You didn't do anything to rub me the wrong way - it's not me - it's a lot of very experienced shooters in this thread that are saying the the same thing.

But you are just like Peter Pan.. "You want to believe in magic!"

These are gimmicks that let the new shooter shoot 20 or 30 rounds and think he has a "quick fix" - and guys that chose these methods wind up with poor shooting rifles, and deluding themselves, thinking that they did something "Scientific", so it must be good!

If you have done much bench work, you would learn to read groups like you read a book, then you would know that the targets in the beginning of this thread don't tell a thing about what is the best load - they DO tell the shooter that the gun has other problems that need to be addressed before load development starts.

But you don't want to put the time in to learn the art - you want a quick fix...

... there are none.

That is why I said that they tell nothing.


... maybe you should stop being so defensive and start asking questions of those old dogs that have been doing this crap since the "match lock".

Good luck with your rifle.


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I don't really have a dog in this fight... but come on now.... learn the art...? what art....? all you do is criticize this guy without any real art answers.

If a guy used your procedure that you first mention...then it would be a quick 20-30 round fix. That's it... done.

You spend your time bashing this guy and the OCW test, when your procedure is pretty close to the same idea as the OCW.

You may call it the CAT system...but it sounds like everyone here is doing close to the same thing...loading a few rounds, trying different grain weights, looking for the best group. How does this differ?

You want Art or Science...then do a procedure that consistantly works across the board with the right powder charge...the right primer... the right bullet...etc etc.

How does advise on trying a few loads + or - a few grains near max help a guy learn anything more than just taking a stab at it...? Sure... the rifle or shooter may have problems... but there should be some kind of considancy to this load work up.

If you consider yourself as an OLD DOG... then throw out some QUALITY BONES.... instead of biting every hand that looks to pet you.... as you obviously need.

We are use to hearing solid wisdom from the Cat... and that is what we always want... but now it's getting hard to make a post without fear of disapproval.

This is not my post...but I fell victom as well.

Help us... forgive us... but don't hurt us. thanks...Dan
 
Originally Posted By: dan brothersI don't really have a dog in this fight... but come on now.... learn the art...? what art....? all you do is criticize this guy without any real art answers.

If a guy used your procedure that you first mention...then it would be a quick 20-30 round fix. That's it... done.

You spend your time bashing this guy and the OCW test, when your procedure is pretty close to the same idea as the OCW.

You may call it the CAT system...but it sounds like everyone here is doing close to the same thing...loading a few rounds, trying different grain weights, looking for the best group. How does this differ?

You want Art or Science...then do a procedure that consistantly works across the board with the right powder charge...the right primer... the right bullet...etc etc.

How does advise on trying a few loads + or - a few grains near max help a guy learn anything more than just taking a stab at it...? Sure... the rifle or shooter may have problems... but there should be some kind of considancy to this load work up.

If you consider yourself as an OLD DOG... then throw out some QUALITY BONES.... instead of biting every hand that looks to pet you.... as you obviously need.

We are use to hearing solid wisdom from the Cat... and that is what we always want... but now it's getting hard to make a post without fear of disapproval.

This is not my post...but I fell victom as well.

Help us... forgive us... but don't hurt us. thanks...Dan

You are an idiot.

Noting I do is like the "OCW system"
 
I hope all you guys can see the true colors of this unhappy man... I'm sorry I even posted anything behind you Cat.

Even if I were an idiot... you are the most unhappy rude man I've ever come across.
 
Originally Posted By: dan brothersI hope all you guys can see the true colors of this unhappy man... I'm sorry I even posted anything behind you Cat.

Even if I were an idiot... you are the most unhappy rude man I've ever come across.

Yup...

That's me for sure
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When you learn the art of dialog, let me know and we can have a conversation about something - but I hate to be lectured to, by someone that knows nothing about the subject.


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Cat, you have knowledge and experience, no doubt about it. But you can be a real prick to people and for no reason other than to stroke your ego. And you've got the minions following you to prove it. You didn't learn it all on your own, why don't you return the favor and help the man out instead of trying to [beeep] all over him.

Originally Posted By: CCPUsing a 60g .223 bullets as an example. I load five of each from 25g to 27g in .5 increments with Varget.

I put up 5 targets then load 5 rounds in my mag. 25g, 25.5g, 26g, 26.5g, 27. First round 25g I fire into first target then second shot 25.5g into 2nd target and so on. I don’t shoot a constant 5 round group of same into one target consecutively.

I take them home look at them closely and choose the one with the best group as my load. If I don’t like any of them I do this again with a different powder if I do like the smallest group, I load 20 more and shoot them another day and tweak my sights if needed then go load a hundred or so to have on hand for that rifle.

Sounds simple but in reality I do this with about every powder, primer, bullet configuration. Once I feel I have done every load combo and settled on a load for that gun I get bored and go buy another gun so I can start this process over.LOL…….

Many years ago I would shoot 5 of same and let barrel cool completely then shoot another group of 5 then so on, but was just too time consuming for me.


I do almost the same except I shoot all my similarly loaded 5-shot groups at the same time. I think your method might be better but I've been able to create some nice accurate loads that were repeatable at different times in different environments so I must be doing something right. Or I'm just lucky I guess.
 
Originally Posted By: SShooterZCat, you have knowledge and experience, no doubt about it. But you can be a real prick to people and for no reason other than to stroke your ego. And you've got the minions following you to prove it. You didn't learn it all on your own, why don't you return the favor and help the man out instead of trying to [beeep] all over him.



Actually sonny - you have no idea of where I learned it. No body spoon fed me - I learned it the old fashioned way... I did the work.

I have no minions - there are a bunch of guys on this site that know about this stuff - and there some that read garbage and decide that they will defend it without knowing what they are defending. I made a simple statement at the beginning of this thread - a bunch of others said the same thing.

I explained why it didn't work, and offered a test that proves it - but the defenders DIDN'T want to do the work, they just wanted to rant about something they have no understanding of.

I really love it when people try to explain something they have no understanding of, and they get ugly trying to defend their position with ignorant remarks.

When you stoop to the level of your post, you are stupider and lower class than they are.


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Guys, This isn't my topic to moderate, but some of the language and attitudes are starting to get under my skin as being totally out of order...Opinions are welcome, but attitudes need some work...
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterWhen you stoop to the level of your post, you are stupider and lower class than they are.

From the guy who makes these posts:

Originally Posted By: CatShooterBut you are just like Peter Pan.. "You want to believe in magic!"

Originally Posted By: CatShooterYou are an idiot.

Classic response! High class all the way! Thanks for the lesson in high class posts. Now that I know where the bar is set, maybe I can make some less stupider posts.
 
Would it be advisable to use a lead sled or similar with an air plunger to push the trigger so you could at least eliminate shooter era while working up loads?
 
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