AZ US Border Patrol Stops Man, Who is in the Right? YOUR Call!

Aside from this, I wonder just how many illegals are picked up at these checkpoints daily? It seem that all the BP would have to do is follow ole Sheriff Joe A. around he seems to be able to find the illegals. Maybe stop in at a meat packing or poultry company like Tyson. I hear those places are full of illegals. Maybe even at a hospital where illegals get treatment, paid for by you and me.

I'm just a dumb construction worker, I'll leave this to the Border patrol to keep the "Tonks" out of our country. The 20 million or so illegals in this country is testament to our gov'ts ability to keep 'em out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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I wonder just how many illegals are picked up at these checkpoints daily?



It depends on the checkpoint. Some stations only do checkpoint work and are in area's where it's ridiculously effective. Some don't catch so many. It just depends. They can also function as a deterrent shutting down or at least providing coverage of smuggling routes. I know Yuma was fairly busy.

The problem with following Sheriff Joe is DHS/CBP won't allow it. When DHS was founded INS was eliminated and the customs side of the house was merged with the immigration side of the house. Border Patrol was no longer allowed to do interior or worksite enforcement in the cities. That duty fell to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). This is a big area of contention in the BP. The problem is that ICE is primarily made up of customs guys. They don't know immigration and don't want to and or have time to learn. They are also bogged down with child porn cases due to most of the stuff being on-line and therefore crossing international borders. The whole thing is a mess. It was further compounded when ICE did a worksite raid in Washington in February and Janet Napolitano ordered a halt on any ICE raids.

Nate
 
I'm all for breaking the guy's window out and dragging him out of the car just so the same treatment goes for someone trying to enter the country.

In Germany I was told don't mess with the cops. They will beat you down with a night stick. Screw up and ouch. That's what's wrong with this country. Don't hurt my feelings or I will sue you after I tell you to F off.
 
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IMO the guy is an activist, no matter what his job description says. I also know a lot of the church's down South side with illegal immigration. I'm not sure of what his agenda is other than maybe some constitutionalists definition of the 4 Amendment is. I think the guy will lose and the Courts will side with the Border Patrol, right or wrong. The guy obviously set out to provoke and be as obnoxious as he could be. Here in WA, you have to follow the orders of a LEO whether they are right or not, failing to do so is obstruction. The ultimate right or wrong is left up to the Courts.



Ditto !!
 
Pathetic....if you knuckleheads felt as passionate about the 4th amendment, as you do the 2nd, you'd see the good pastor is doing what anyone should do when passing thru those checkpoints. Put the border patrol where there monicker indicates, on the border, not miles from it where US citizens have to be pestered with their series of 20 questions. I routinely pass thru them two ro three times a week, I do not get quite as contentious as the pastor, but I give them one chance to ask the right question, and thats "what is your citizenship" to which I answer United States, any other question asked gets one reply....."thats none of your business".
 
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Your screen name says it all.




/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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Your screen name says it all.



So does yours! It sure is telling to the fact that you will blindly defend anyone who has chosen the same vocation as you. The key word here is 'chosen'. If life is that tough, quit. This whole deal is very similar to the members here and their devoted crucifiction of anyone who is a public school teacher. Y'all remember those posts on here don't you? You know the ones that claimed anyone who recieved a check from a school system was a mindbending, antichristian socialist. When those same teachers came on to defend their profession, the glass was shattered and they were drug through the proverbial window.

The point the pastor is making is the system is broken. The constitution is being trambled on. Is it the fault of the poor ol' BP agent who is just doing his job, or is the fact that our politicians and policy makers consider the constitution nothing more than a well written set of suggestions? Drop the self centered me, me, me attitude and taking this as an attack on BP agents. It is bigger than that. The BP agents are just the poor guys stuck in the middle.

Maintain

P.S. For the record, I do feel that our public ed system is broken beyond repair. Just wanted to clear that up.
 
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For more information look into INA 287, the 1976 supreme court decision in U.S. vs. Martinez-Fuerte, and keep in mind that even the dreaded (by law enforcement) 9th circuit court upholds the legality of BP checkpoints.

Ever notice how none of these lawsuits and "constitutionalist" youtube sensations never go anywhere? There's a good reason.



It might not be your version of constitutional or some radical pastor's version of constitutional, but it has been ruled constitutional by the highest court in the land. That ruling has stood and withstood challenges for over 30 years. Another historical fact is that the border search law that checkpoint authority is derived from was in place before the bill of rights. It was deemed necessary by our forefathers to maintain and protect this nations sovereignty.

Nate

PS - As far as dropping the me, me, me self centered attitude which one of us would rather let terrorist's and illegal's travel more easily into America than be bothered by 30 seconds at a checkpoint?
 
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This guy was a jerk from the get go , would not open the window and seems to be trying to get these guys provoked , It was a set up from the get go and he had the camera going before he even stopped . What a jerk and he is a pastor !! Don't now any pastors/bishops that would treat an officer like that !! All he had to do was open his window and answer the the ??? . But no he had no plans on being nice !!



Pretty much the way I saw it. Another fool seeking attention. The anti-gov't guys will love em though.
 
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...which one of us would rather let terrorist's and illegal's travel more easily into America than be bothered by 30 seconds at a checkpoint?



And how much has it helped up to this point? Granted, it may have helped some. Maybe as much as an AWB helped keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

As far as our courts finding all this to be constitutional, well, refer to my comment on how some of our law makers regard the constitution as a group of 'suggestions'.
 
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a K-9 unit alerted officers that drugs or people could be concealed inside Anderson's car, giving the federal officers probable cause to search the vehicle.



I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that constitutes probable cause. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that there's probable cause to get a search warrant?

I have gone through these check points (including Yuma) too many times to count and have never had a problem. As has been mentioned, a polite and civil responce will normally get you a long way.

I would be surprised if the training the officers get on how to identify people needing further investigation doesn't include the persons "attitude". A nervous or aggressive person might well be more likely to be trying to hide criminal behaviour.

On the other hand, I have also personally seen examples of at least very bad police training, and possibly just bad cops. That's the reason we have laws to protect citizens.

This guy is obviously an idiot with an agenda, but he is still a citizen with rights. Was he treated (in each case) in accordance with those rights? Maybe not totally.

Still...I don't think he would want me on the jury at the civil trial where he sues the cops.
 
The bottom line to me as a taxpayer is, the agents are paid to enforce immigration laws, not to settle personal scores with some lippy activist who bruised their fragile egos. There's 20 million illegals in this country, I'd rather the agents concentrate their time on that problem while on the clock, rather than waste more taxpayer money by getting themselves sued by not showing a little discretion and recognising the knucklehead for what he was.
The reaction by the agents was exactly what the pastor was looking for, and they fell for it, due to their lack of professionalism.
Both sides may have a point, but their messages are lost in their manner. If the pastor loses the lawsuit, and all agents that actually laid hands on the pastor lose their jobs I'd say karma prevailed.
 
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This guy is obviously an idiot with an agenda...



Agreed, but what is that agenda? To me it is to bring attention to, and make people contemplate our loss of rights.(possibly Java's motive for this post?) According to the 4A, LE must have a search warrent to search his vehicle. That is their job. Loosing all proffesionalism after not being able to take a short cut around the 4A helps to reinforce his point. When guns were confiscated post katrina, there was an outrage on boards like this. If I recall, even a few chastised the LEO's doing the confiscating. So, is the 2A more importent than the 4A? To me, it's all or none.

Maintain
 
Could have been handled a lot better. But when they said they wanted to search the vehicle I would have asked what their "probable cause" was. If they just said they were "suspicious", they would get told to get on a phone and explain it to a Federal judge and get him to sign a search warrent. When they got a copy of it out there then they could search the car but not before.
 
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And how much has it helped up to this point? Granted, it may have helped some. Maybe as much as an AWB helped keep guns out of the hands of criminals?



FY 2008 Border Patrol Statistics

Here's an excerpt:
" The United States Border Patrol arrested 723,825 illegal aliens in FY 2008, a 17 percent decrease compared with 876,704 in FY 2007. Border Patrol agents seized 1,642,420 pounds of marijuana, 9,272 pounds of cocaine, and 735 ounces of heroin, decreases of 12, 35, and 61 percent, respectively."

The 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act gave amnesty to every illegal in the U.S. prior to 1982. So we basically had a clean slate and started over at 0 in 1982. Estimates run from 12 million to 20 million illegals here now. Let's use the high estimate and say that we gained 20 million illegals in 27 years. Thats 740,741 illegals per year. Last year was the lowest number of apprehensions in years and BP caught 723,825 illegals. That means that, by the numbers, we caught roughly 97% as many as got past. Considering the odds that agents face batting close to .500 is pretty good. Certainly more than "it may have helped some," and definately better than the effectiveness of the AWB.

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As far as our courts finding all this to be constitutional, well, refer to my comment on how some of our law makers regard the constitution as a group of 'suggestions'.



For 33 years since the ruling people have been fighting this. Don't you think that in 33 years someone would have made some ground? Why would a few extremists know more than 33 years of supreme court rulings? It's even held up in the 9th circuit several times, and if there's any way to rule against law enforcement the 9th circuit will find it. Ask anybody that's tried to prosecute someone in it.

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The bottom line to me as a taxpayer is, the agents are paid to enforce immigration laws, not to settle personal scores with some lippy activist who bruised their fragile egos.



Escalation of force on non-compliant subjects is standard operating procedure for law enforcement world wide. If it wasn't, any criminal could simply be non-compliant and just walk away from cops. It would be great for bank robbers if it worked that way but unfortunately for them it doesn't. His aggresive manner was further grounds for suspicion. I understand the thinking that because he had a camera the agents should have assumed he was what he was, but the problem is that it would be a simple matter for smugglers to adopt his tactics. Then what? Countless illegals and thousands of pounds of dope get by because the agents avoid confrontation.

Leon, I don't know how it works for other agencies but BP generally doesn't need to get a warrant it they have PC due to the remote locations they are generally in. A warrant is best if it is possible but for agents in the field it usually isn't.
 
My two cents:

I live in Phoenix- so I'm pretty close to the border.

First off, the guy was looking for a fight. He had a camera rolling, and as memory serves (I saw this awhile ago) he had a rolling commentary prior to even showing up at the checkpoint. He's looking for a fight ,that's apparent.

We all know what happens when you lip off at a bunch of agents. Is this a surprise? No. He came to the spot, knowing what he was going to be asked, and came out repeating laws out of the book word for word.

I remember going to Rocky Point, Mexico for spring break when I was a kid. (About 20). The cop carrying an Uzi, (I know, Federales with Uzi's) robbed every car heading north to the border, in front of a church. (We're taking donations, cha-ching). He scored a case of Corona and some much needed breath mints. Oh, and about $1.05. So that's how they work below the border.

At least above the border they ask you a few questions and you're free to go. That's all this guy had to do. No carwheels, tricks, or smart [beeep] comments, just 20 secs of yes/no's and he's good to go.

The problem is.. and the reason why he's getting no sympathy, is that he was looking for a fight. He found one. And a "man of god" on top of it. Awesome.
 
the guys a horses butt and the agents are power hungry cops dead set on not being disrespected, they deserve each other. What I dont like is the fact that this US Citizen is detained for driving down the highway when there are millions of scattered across country that move about completely unmolested. Move these idiots off the checkpoint and onto the streets.
 
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Thats 740,741 illegals per year. Last year was the lowest number of apprehensions in years and BP caught 723,825 illegals. That means that, by the numbers, we caught roughly 97% as many as got past.



Good job(No sarcasm), but you are missing my point. I am not attacking the jobs of the BP. My question is in regards to the 4A.


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For 33 years since the ruling people have been fighting this. Don't you think that in 33 years someone would have made some ground? Why would a few extremists know more than 33 years of supreme court rulings?



33 years of being upheld does not make your point. The work of our forfathers allowed for the challenge of these courts by the citizens of this country, to try to keep the balance of power tilted toward the individual. Examples of this are found through out our history. Two examples of this would be the issues of slavery and womens right to vote.


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Escalation of force on non-compliant subjects is standard operating procedure for law enforcement world wide. If it wasn't, any criminal could simply be non-compliant and just walk away from cops.



So you are saying it is accepted to escalate force until the desired result is achieved? He did not attempt to leave or flee, he asked(many times) for permission to leave.

Let me ask you Borderdog, what is your take on the 4A. Do you think it should not apply at these check stations inside our border? Should it be left up to BP agents to interpret the 4A on a case by case basis? What does the 4A mean to you?

Maintain
 
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