24 Varminter ?

Originally Posted By: IcedteaOf all the variants out there, the Hagar is the best engineered 6mm for the AR platform. I have a couple WOA's with no complaints, they are as good as any and better than most.

Where can I order a 6mm Hagar barrel, dies and brass (or forming dies and the parent brass)?
 
Originally Posted By: Eric_MayerOriginally Posted By: IcedteaOf all the variants out there, the Hagar is the best engineered 6mm for the AR platform. I have a couple WOA's with no complaints, they are as good as any and better than most.

Where can I order a 6mm Hagar barrel, dies and brass (or forming dies and the parent brass)?

I bought my Shilen barrel from Dedicated Technologies, brass and dies from Creedmoor Sports.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Only advantage to the shoulder change seems to be less trimming between loadings. I still have no idea why the Hagar won't catch on..... if Hornady would just do another brass run. Everything is just chasing it with its 2 grain extra powder capacity.
The main reason why I would pick one of the 6.8 variants is more a choice of which one will be chambered properly.
Apparently not enough "headroom" for the long heavies in a gas gun.
Screen-Shot-03-10-23-at-01-18-PM.png
 
Originally Posted By: DirectDriveApparently not enough "headroom" for the long heavies in a gas gun.
Screen-Shot-03-10-23-at-01-18-PM.png


Which is what makes it a great varmint cartridge for lighter bullets, at higher speeds, and better point blank range, especially at night.

Plus, load them to 2.280" OAL and stuff 'em in ASC magazines, & it's a win all around.
 
Originally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: Eric_MayerOriginally Posted By: IcedteaOf all the variants out there, the Hagar is the best engineered 6mm for the AR platform. I have a couple WOA's with no complaints, they are as good as any and better than most.

Where can I order a 6mm Hagar barrel, dies and brass (or forming dies and the parent brass)?

I bought my Shilen barrel from Dedicated Technologies, brass and dies from Creedmoor Sports.

Nothing from either of the sites you mentioned. Was that recently? I'm asking is to see what is available currently.
 
Originally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: DirectDriveApparently not enough "headroom" for the long heavies in a gas gun.
Screen-Shot-03-10-23-at-01-18-PM.png


Which is what makes it a great varmint cartridge for lighter bullets, at higher speeds, and better point blank range, especially at night.

Plus, load them to 2.280" OAL and stuff 'em in ASC magazines, & it's a win all around.
Exactly.
If Hornady were to get behind 6mm Hagar (they would name it something else) it would have to satisfy the precision crowd and the varmint crowd.
I think that's why they settled on 6ARC. It can do both disciplines.
 
Originally Posted By: Eric_MayerOriginally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: Eric_MayerOriginally Posted By: IcedteaOf all the variants out there, the Hagar is the best engineered 6mm for the AR platform. I have a couple WOA's with no complaints, they are as good as any and better than most.

Where can I order a 6mm Hagar barrel, dies and brass (or forming dies and the parent brass)?

I bought my Shilen barrel from Dedicated Technologies, brass and dies from Creedmoor Sports.


Nothing from either of the sites you mentioned. Was that recently? I'm asking is to see what is available currently.

You won’t find anything available. Hornady did a short run of Hagar brass for Creedmoor Sports in 2012, they have not run it again. 30 Rem brass is non existent and 6.8 basic brass not foreseen in the near future either. The Hagar is dead.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DirectDriveOriginally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: DirectDriveApparently not enough "headroom" for the long heavies in a gas gun.
Screen-Shot-03-10-23-at-01-18-PM.png


Which is what makes it a great varmint cartridge for lighter bullets, at higher speeds, and better point blank range, especially at night.

Plus, load them to 2.280" OAL and stuff 'em in ASC magazines, & it's a win all around.
Exactly.
If Hornady were to get behind 6mm Hagar (they would name it something else) it would have to satisfy the precision crowd and the varmint crowd.
I think that's why they settled on 6ARC. It can do both disciplines.

The precision crowd wants long and heavy bullets. The varminter crowd wants short and light bullets. The appropriate chamber for one doesn’t really accommodate the other well either way. The long and heavy has a bigger market, but the short and light is more practical for hunting. This is just my perspective on the whole deal with 6mm cartridges for the AR. I personally would love a standardized cartridge with factory components and ammo support in the short and light hunting for hunting version.
 
Best and probably only way to find brass at the moment is to post a wanted add on several sites. Alot of guys bought it up for the Nosgar thing and I'm sure some is floating around.

8208 in 24" 10 twist

60s 3525 ish
65s 3470 ish
87s 3030 ish

Ar comp and 70s are 3400ish

Only tried Benchmark with 87s and they are 3050 fps.

Barrels are on rifle plus 2 gas with .094 gas port and it still seems to be a bit short on gas with some loads. Still sorting that out but mine runs fine with 65s, 80s with 8208 and 87s with Benchmark. It shoots all loads well.

I also have a 28" 8 twist that only seems to like the 65s
I need to chrono that yet.

Fluffy extruded powders like ar comp end up compressed. Finer powders like 8208 and Benchmark seem to fill the case just up into the shoulder taper and aren't noticeably compressed.
Loading
60 sierras at 2.240 .020 off lands
65 v max at 2.260 .020 of lands
70 bt, 80 blitz and 87 vmax at 2.295 as they are still aways off of lands.

I'm still unclear what the freebore on our reamers is. It started as the .117 freebore and ptg was supposed to shorten the freebore to put 70 bts on the lands at 2.300 but they hit around 2.395. I have one of Sid Goodlings barrels and the freebore on it is way longer yet by around .100" so I'm not sure what is what yet. Our chambers seem to be ideal for 58 and 65 vmax as well as 60 sierra hps.

 
Last edited:
These are the 24 Varminter velocities out of three AR15s. Fireform loads to bump the shoulder, using H335. We will be using more efficient powders once it stops snowing in Idaho.

24-Varminter-Velocities-03112023LG.jpg
 
Last edited:
I would like to see this same test done with fire formed brass and shot in a pressure barrel. I've seen some comparison work done with a pressure barrel and what the primers looked like, it was an eye-opener.
The parent case was rated for how much pressure? The web is the determining factor when the operation pressure is rated.

The accepted method of determining pressure of a belted magnum is to measure the head spacing belt before firing and after to find the amount of expansion. There are differences in expansion between the manufacturers with the same load. You can find the resulting opinions on that with your search engine.
 
Originally Posted By: IcedteaI would like to see this same test done with fire formed brass and shot in a pressure barrel. I've seen some comparison work done with a pressure barrel and what the primers looked like, it was an eye-opener.
The parent case was rated for how much pressure? The web is the determining factor when the operation pressure is rated.

The accepted method of determining pressure of a belted magnum is to measure the head spacing belt before firing and after to find the amount of expansion. There are differences in expansion between the manufacturers with the same load. You can find the resulting opinions on that with your search engine.

That's why were not pushing these to max pressures for our AR15 loads. In fact, our QL information is putting us at a point where we can go even higher, with no issues. We choose not to because the small amount of work resizing, trimming, etc, adds up over time and we want to preserve brass. Besides, the AR15 pressure limits will always be lower than the brass pressure limits in this cartridge.

However, we will be expanding this testing to a 24" bolt-action where it will be pushed to maximum.
 
Last edited:
I’m a fan of 6mms in ars. I like to shoot both light and fast rounds at night and heavier bullets long range at steel. I have a 6x6.8 and 243lbc for each. In my opinion the 6 Hagar and the new renamed 24 varmint will have a tough time becoming popular against the 6x6.8 and 6 arc or Grendel based variants mainly because they don’t offer any advantage besides maybe a little more speed but by the speeds posted that is not seen yet. Granted there are other powders to be tested and speeds may rise. A 58vmax going 3650 vs 3750 has about 1/4 inch difference in drop at 300 yds. For me it would take more of a difference than that to be worth messing with the hard to find non existent brass or fireforming brass and searching for it through grass or corn stalks at night. But that’s just my opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: DholsappleI’m a fan of 6mms in ars. I like to shoot both light and fast rounds at night and heavier bullets long range at steel. I have a 6x6.8 and 243lbc for each. In my opinion the 6 Hagar and the new renamed 24 varmint will have a tough time becoming popular against the 6x6.8 and 6 arc or Grendel based variants mainly because they don’t offer any advantage besides maybe a little more speed but by the speeds posted that is not seen yet. Granted there are other powders to be tested and speeds may rise. A 58vmax going 3650 vs 3750 has about 1/4 inch difference in drop at 300 yds. For me it would take more of a difference than that to be worth messing with the hard to find non existent brass or fireforming brass and searching for it through grass or corn stalks at night. But that’s just my opinion.

We aren’t trying to compete with any other cartridge out there. The 6 arc has marketing that nothing else can even try to compete with. As I stated above, the Hagar is dead due to the lack of 30 Rem and 6.8 basic brass on the market. The advantage to the 24 Varminter is that we have barrels and dies ready to go right now. Good luck getting a 6x6.8 barrel and dies made in just a few days. The 6WOA as mentioned is another great cartridge, but even White Oak doesn’t even list is as an offering anymore. The 24 Varminter was designed to shoot light Varmint bullets because that’s what and who we are. When we approached MDWS about this idea, they were all for it and we will continue to put our names on this rebranding and stand behind it.
 
IMO you guys are about 10 years or so late to the show.

My 18" 6x6.8 runs 3373 with 58vmax and 3070 with 70NBTs. That's with virgin Starline brass and 8208 powder. Its definitely not a hot load and 8208 is slower than 335 that you all used for your data.

Bottom line, ballistic performance is almost identical with zero downrange difference between the two, everything proprietary to you guys. 6x6.8 is much less trouble, more available components and more barrel makers and smiths with reamers so I'm staying in the 6x6.8 camp but good luck guys with your endeavors.
 
Appears its only available in 8 twist? In my experience that's a bit fast for the lighter bullets. I've seen some 9s shoot light bullets in 243 well though.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Kino MIMO you guys are about 10 years or so late to the show.

My 18" 6x6.8 runs 3373 with 58vmax and 3070 with 70NBTs. That's with virgin Starline brass and 8208 powder. Its definitely not a hot load and 8208 is slower than 335 that you all used for your data.

Bottom line, ballistic performance is almost identical with zero downrange difference between the two, everything proprietary to you guys. 6x6.8 is much less trouble, more available components and more barrel makers and smiths with reamers so I'm staying in the 6x6.8 camp but good luck guys with your endeavors.

We aren’t at max load with those numbers either, also virgin starline brass. You’re right, there isn’t really anything ballistically different between the 6x6.8 and the 24 Varminter. Brass prep isn’t any harder than 6x6.8, so I’m not sure where you think it is. components are actually more available for the 24 Varminter as we have barrels and dies ready to ship, in whatever length and profile you’d prefer. Starling brass is being shipped out regularly as well.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Appears its only available in 8 twist?


Yes, 8 twist is more suited for lighter Varmint bullets.
 
Idk man I have quite a bit of experience with the 6x6.8. Most of my experience is with AR Comp and 8208. I've shot very little h335 and h322 but the speeds you have posted are probably hard on brass, mainly the light bullet speeds.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Idk man I have quite a bit of experience with the 6x6.8. Most of my experience is with AR Comp and 8208. I've shot very little h335 and h322 but the speeds you have posted are probably hard on brass.


The brass looks great actually, no swipes or even primer deformation. I need to do some more testing with AR Comp, 8208 and cfe223.
 
Back
Top