How much and what kind of scope do I need for 400 yard shots?

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OKBrent

OKBrent

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I shoot a 243 AI topped with a 3.5 x 10 VX III. I took a poke a a coyote last weekend and guessed the holdover with some "Kentucky windage" and missed. I would love to make these shots on a regular basis without having to guess what 14" is above the dog. I am wondering how much and what kind of scope do I need? Do I need mill dots? Target turrets? The other twist is that my friend is selling his GreyBull Precision Leupold scope, 4 x 14 x 50. 30 mm tube, special reticle and a target turret they make for your drops... 1150.00 scope I think I can pick up for 1/2 price. I think its alittle busy and maybe over kill? WHAT DO I NEED to make that shot? Thanks for the input, Brent
 
You need some kind of reticle with graduations. I prefer "enhanced" mil reticles that have half-mil marks as well as full mill marks. Premier's GenII XR and IOR's MP8 dot are two of my favorite reticles.

Once you've chosen a reticle that you like, you will want to decide if you want a first focal plane or second focal plane reticle. (ffp or sfp) FFP means the reticle works on all powers. SFP means the reticle works on a set power. (usually max) Get turrets to match your reticle.

I wouldn't buy that other leupold scope. Leupold is hardly the name they once were.

Once you start shooting long range and learning a bit more, you'll understand why some things work and others don't.
 
Originally Posted By: orkan
Leupold is hardly the name they once were.

Saldy there are way too many things in this world,that this can be said for.
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i have a 22-250 and have a bushnell elite 3200 5-15x on it. love the scope. i am able to hit beer bottles at 400 yards. its a very clear scope and for the price hard to beat. one of my favorite shots is a small seedless watermelon at 426 yards and hitting it and watching it explode through the scope. i only have to hold about 10-12in to hit a beer bottle.
 
Originally Posted By: OKBrentWHAT DO I NEED to make that shot?

The easy answer is....PRACTICE. You don't need a scope to do it for you. Most people use objects of known size for comparison. Coyote height sitting is what? 20" give or take? and size of the body from bottom of chest to top of back is maybe 8". Thats a good way to judge how high to hold over.
Granted, a different or better scope doesn't hurt anything.
I use tactical turrets with a mil-dot on a relatively "cheap" scope. The scope is almost worthless, but I practice and study my ballistic program and corresponding range card so I know with relative confidence where my bullet is going to land on the first shot at a few different distances.

I know that at 400m I can dial my scope 7 minutes and be shooting at the very least...4"-5" groups. 5mph wind at full value is 2 minutes of drift. 10mph of wind at full value is 4.5 minutes.
I usually just guess the wind since it rarely comes at full value OR at a constant speed.
Learn to read the grass movement or heat waves to judge wind speed and direction.

14" does seem like a small number for drop but if your shooting a flat rifle with a light bullet with a 200 yd zero, it's perfectly understandable.

Practice shooting more often at 400 or even unknown distances to improve your chances.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tim Neitzke
orkan said:
Leupold is hardly the name they once were.

I agree...I just purchased a couple of minutes ago off Ebay NIB a Nikon Monark 2.5x10 42mm with Mildots for $309. I have 2 other of these optics with the BDC recticles that I picked up for $299 ea. These models sell at Cabelas/Gander for around $400. They pull in more light than any of my Leupold VX111's or Mark 4 4.5x14's that I own hands down! Its sad that a scope that cost a third of my Mark 4 has better glass. I like the versitility of 14 power and almost went with the Monark 4x16 this time but due to 99% of the time my called in coyotes are under 50 yards I stuck with another "wide view" 2.5x10. Its my 3rd one now and love them. The looks I am not sold on compaired the clean lines of the Leupold, but hands down the Nikon's glass makes up for it. In my opinon(for what its worth)the glass in these scopes are just as bright as many optics you'd pay over a grand for. If you want more magnification try the 4x16 Monark Mildot...I found one on line for $355 NIB. You dont have to pay an arm and a leg for good optics, you just have to shop for a good price.
Click to expand...
 
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I'm assuming u have the Duplex reticle in that 3.5-10x. That reticle measures (subtends) 2.6 MOA to the post tips from center x-hair @10x. If your drop is 14" @ 400 then that's 3.3 MOA (14/4/1.05). 3.3 MOA is 0.7 more than the 2.6 MOA lower post tip. If u divide 0.7 by 2.6 you get 0.3. That means that at 400 yds. your "zero" would be 1.3 plex post tips.

Now go out and set up a piece of steel or other tgt. (milk jug maybe) and try that system and see if u can't hit it every time.

You really do owe it to yourself to get a reticle or turret system that will work more precisely at distance--especially with that caliber. Might just send that optic u already have in for a mil-dot reticle change.
 
Wow, great ideas guys. I am going to pass on my buddies scope...I know I want to go with a mildot retical, but I assume, the ballistics on my rifle won't match the reticle like they advertise so you have to shoot it out on your own and figure out what your drops are.?. I also wondered, when using turrets, do you ever loose track on where you are on your turns or not have time to dial your distance on your shot? Thanks for all the input again and I might get online and look at some of thoes Nikions. Brent
 
NEED ... don't enter into it. The 2.5x fixed Nikon on my AR has made hits out to very near 300 yards. A ballistics card taped to the side of your rifle stock helps a ton. Knowing the yardage is the key. If you know the yardage, you know the drop. Windage is trickier, of course. Practice is all important.

Just to prove I am as much a hypocrite as the next guy, this fall I bought a Burris Eliminator scope to put on a 6.5x284 Savage. Time and weather have conspired to keep me from final load development and programming the scope.

My brother swears by Nikon scopes and their BDC reticle. Seems like everyone has a similar reticle system. I only wish that more were set in the first focal plane for real flexibility.

Many, perhaps most, scopes designed for long range work have zero reset turrets. Zero your scope, loosen the turret sleeve and set to zero. When done winding up and down simply twist 'em back to the zero marks.
 
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Take a look at the Redfield 4-12 with the accu-reticle. It along with the Winchester Ballistic Calculator, you should be able to figure out how to kill to 400 Yrd's or better.
 
You need turrets or some type of BDC scope whether it be mildots or circles or hash marks, and you'll have to know how to use them and match them up.

I personally dont care for BDC scopes. They are busy and I dont like that junk in my scope. I like a fine duplex reticle to where I can see everything. Also BDCs have there limits, you gotta use xxx bullet at xxxx velocity at xxxx altitude, at xxxx temperature and the further out you get, the more that stuff really matters and thats why BDC suck...They are limited to about 600 yards IMO with all things considering at LR... With turrets you can use any load you want, your not stuck with 1 load. Course you gotta cronograph and make up a new drop chart but who cares, way more versatile. You are being as precise as you can with turrents at LR because you can simply dial the required MOA for the type of shot depending on range and conditions, after you input all your data like, bullet weight, fps, zero range, sight height, temp, altitude, pressure, angle, you get the idea right. BDCs just dont win out at true LR shooting for being precise, you'll either be high or low...

You wanna consistently kill or hit stuff at LR you need a rangefinder, cronograph, scope with repeatable turrets, and a good consistent load with a high BC bullet that will open up, and that shoots well under MOA, and you need to have a range to practice out to at least the distance you plan on hunting or shooting at live animals, and shoot often. You need to run the ballistics for the come ups in MOA and then go out and verify. Just becasue JBM says go up 20 MOA at 1K dont mean squat... I tend to practice at 1000-1200 yards that way when somethin pokes up at 500-600, its like a chip shot in otherwords.

It is not cheap to shoot LR. You need a few pieces of equipment and know how to use it, on top of having the time and place to practice A LOT and become good at it.

400 yds really isn't that far though. I would send your scope into leupold and get a mildot. Zero it at 200 or 250 yards, and your first dot would probly be real close to being dead on at 400. I'm not real good with mildots cause I dont use them or like them, but If I had to make use of a Mildot, I would zero at 200 or 250 yards, then I'd calculate, shoot, and verify where each mil down hit dead on at. Thats what I'd do. Reticle change is like $150 or so, and I'd recomend a mildot master or somethign similar to help you estimate range if you dont ahve a rangefinder already. If you already have a rangefinder, hel with the mildot, get turrets installed and start dialing. You dont know what your missing when you hear the sound of steel ringing at LR...
 
Only scopes they dont put turrets on are the LPS and Rifleman series.

You can even get the M1 "tactical" knobs which are seen on the Mk4's, on the vx2s and vx3s for a little more money then the regular turrets. There a little more robust and user friendly is all. They are exposed which means no caps, and they have 1 big allen head to loosen/tighten the zero rather then 3 little tiny PITA ones.
 
Just had M1s and a wide duplex added to this one. I don't do mil-dots or BDCs or anything else. If it far enough that I have to guess, I use a rangefinder, spin turrets, and hold dead-on. This is for sale in the classifieds......

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Some say Leupold isn't what it used to be. All I can say to that is Nikon, Bushnell, Burris, and the like never were, and still aren't what Leupold is today. And I've used more than one of every damm one of them........
 
You guys don't miss anything...That gives me a few more options. Thats a great looking scope you have for sale, love to have it...Thanks again, Brent
 
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