Urban Coyotes

i was off replying and asking a question ,

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I'll try to help you George

Don't know never been to your place
Definition of a wild coyote...... see my post above.
don't know. How big is the city?
See my definition above.

I have a few questions.

Is there any difference between pen raised pheasants and wild ones??
what is the difference if any?

Any difference between deer in the city and deer in the wilderness?

Any difference between hunting in the wilds of PA and hunting in the wilds of Alberta?

Would you rather hunt wild animals or tame ones.





Is there any difference between pen raised pheasants and wild ones??
being a pheasant hunter , here anyway, i would say No
Once the bird is in the field he as the same traits as the wild bird. to the point that he has never been wild but instinctually knows to roost up in a tree, the nets that keep them in the pen ant but 7 feet off the ground with no roost in the pen . they also will start to feed off wild plants, but never have fed before on anything wild.here anyway's

Any difference between deer in the city and deer in the wilderness?
YES, The deer that I hunt around Philadelphia I can get away with so much more then the deer in the hills.
But there are the deer that live in the suburbs of Philly that are a little harder to fool, i will honestly say it get harder to fool them the less integrated they become with people.to a point!!! onces its you and the deer face to face ether in the city or the hill all his censes are sharp, no difference in the deer once they are within range you cant make any mistakes. the only thing you can get away with is making distant noise, they are more tolerant to sound and smellat a distance.
at a distance . once there censes get over loaded by being close your bust same as the hills.
but on the deer I hear you point.
but the deer being societies to people don't make them tame or a danger just foolable ,
I will go as fare to even say even if I am feeding them apples by hand it will not acerbate deer crossing my yard to eat out of the apple tree with them knowing that my dog could be out, they will never come close then the back corner of the yard , they never jump my small white picket fence.
Any difference between hunting in the wilds of PA and hunting in the wilds of Alberta?
beside me adapting to the terrain i would say NO
Would you rather hunt wild animals or tame ones.
There are no tame animals with a season?
but if your referring to would i like to hunt easy to kill game or harder to kil game, my answer is this
I have always said from my experiences in hunting coyote that if I was aloud to only hunt coyotes in 1 place in the world it be Pennsylvania , not being a fur hunter it is all about the hunt to me , so i don't need to kill anything
just have the opportunities to challang myself is all I am looking for .
would I kill coyotes behind the wall mart in Scottsdale in a hart beat.

LOOK , i am on the same page as you on urban coyotes , i feel much like the same i do with south texs coyotes they are very killable!!!!

but will me calling them and not busting a primer acerbate them becoming MORE aggressive toured people
no calling them in and not killing them ant doing it . it people that don't know better inviting them home for dinner
 
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See Jim i don't think a coyote remembers I think a coyote associates.

all he will associate with me calling him and not killing him would be that , he mist out on a meal!!!
he still never really know i was there

remember i am with you on that they are easer to call /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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So what is a call wise coyote or one that we refer to as "educated"?

why does a coyote kick on the afterburners when he sees a truck in areas where ranchers shoot at every coyote they see. I'm pretty sure he remembers his last encounter with a pickup truck, or being called and shot at.

I also think once he learns about a cetain food supply, like a chicken house or lambing operation, he won't have to stumble on it again and again. He'll remmeber where his easy meal came from. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I know I do.
 
see I feel he just associates the truck with danger. and a chicken house with food.

what is he learning I guess I am asking??
OK, you have me in total camouflage calling him in , he shows up
I take a hand full of photos witch he may even hear . but he never really know what is going on ...
he don't know there is a 350 lb city boy sitting there . just that there no dinner and off he go's

now Iam with your argument if guys like Rich are handing them a cheese whit, after each encounter
but all I feel if happening is that he shows up and leaves really confused
 
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know I with your argument if guys like Rich are handing them a cheese whit, after each encounter
but all I feel if happening is that he shows up and leaves really confused



Hell, I'm really confused now...
 
Well thanks George. I had no idea what a cheese whit was. i guess it is true that you learn something new everyday.

See this thread has some value.
 
I know what a cheese whit is and it's GOOD!!!!! I've been craving them the last couple of months. Actually I've been craving lots of stuff from PA that we don't have here. Ya just gotta make sure you keep an eye out for the big PA bears.
 
From someone who used to travel to Philadelphia every month, I can honestly say that:

Cheese Whit = Tasty = Stomach Ache. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Now, for the topic at hand. I don't know much about Urban Coyotes, but I know quite a bit about Urban Deer. As I type this in my shop, I can see 4 deer eating from my mulberry tree in my yard, only 12 feet from my open garage door.

I've been a whitetail hunter (bow and gun), since I was a young kid. When we first moved to IA and built this house a few years ago, I couldn't help but notice the deer walking the streets, yards, etc. Our kids got a biology lesson watching a 10 point buck breeding a doe in our neighbors front yard, only 15 feet from their front door. I've chased deer off of our front porch, as they were eating our jack-o-lanterns. I've chased them off on countless ocassions for eating our flowers on the porch, etc...

BARE WITH ME, There is a point to all of this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Our first winter, we had a 91 inch snowfall season. We felt sorry for a young doe that was hanging around and put out a dog dish with corn. The next day, we had 4 deer sleeping in our back yard. Three days later, we had 12 deer. I pulled the feeder, yet they slept in our yard for a week or more and slaughtered every piece of landscaping, pine trees, and even the bark off of my oramental trees.

These Urban Deer have no fear of man, as they've never experienced a reason to. Heck, when shot with a BB gun, they just jump and move over 1 foot and continue to slaughter the landscaping.


In my mind, an Urban Coyote could be very similar. With no reason to deathly fear humans (unlike all the rural ones that have been shot at), repetative prey sounds with no adverse effect could condition them to equate distress sounds to a feeding frenzie. No different than chumming shark or my big dog dish of corn for the deer. I'm not saying that the few cases of coyote attacks are even remotely related to calling. But moreso, if Urban Coyotes are used to scavanging from garbage or pet dishes, calling them with prey sounds could switch their hunting habits to searching for live prey -vs- dog food and tin can scraps.

More importantly, and absolutely no disrepect to anyone, if I were to study and document the behaviors of the deer in my neighborhood and pass it off as "typical whitetail behavior", I would be grossly mistaken.

Just my thoughts on the topic.

Tony
 
Co-worker told me the other day. An adult Red fox was standing on the street[daytime]. Near the edge of a small nearby town a few days ago. He & his wife stopped to watch from their car. Red, just stood there around 15' away, then mosied on. Conditioned? I say yes.

Same town, same general area, there are two active Red dens. On the West edge of that town. Closest active den is around 100yrds or so from the last house on the edge of town. The other den is around 150yrds or so, further West, farther out of town. Both den's are on the high cut bank of a road ditch.

Closest coyote den I've ever found was around[or a tad over]a 1/4 mile from a farmsted. Daytime, coyotes tend "not" to hang any closer than a 1/4 mile from any active farmsted.

Red's are more prone to become habituated/conditioned, to man's presence than coyotes[from what I've seen]. Flipside, coyotes are smarter/more wary, by a long shot.

Yeah, I've also witnessed a coyote following close behind a farm tractor[moving hay bales], snatching-up field mice [daytime]. Conditioned? I say yes.

A while back, one farmer, told me as he was harvesting corn[daytime]. A coyote followed close behind his combine. Coyote caught a rabbit that flushed, mid-day. Wife pulled into the field to bring her husband lunch[same time farme]. Coyote, laid down very close by them both & ate it's rabbit, while laying out in the open. All the while keeping an eye on the farmer's. Conditioned? I say yes.

Does calling without reprisal encourage attacks on human's?
I believe that would depend on that specific coyote & circumstance.
 
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BARE WITH ME,




I'll bare with you on the internet as long as we don't use a camera, but I'd rather not in person.

Tony, I heard about a guy who runs a coyote university and I recommend a course or two.

We can't have it both ways: that a call by itself educates/conditions coyotes to fear humans and not fear humans.

By educated coyote on any other thread, everybody means the coyote gets call shy, avoiding humans, whether he is shot at or not. To translate that into a coyote educated/conditioned into less fear of humans by being called reverses the same logic.

Urban or park coyotes with little fear of being near humans is a totally different subject, nothing to do with calls, as is feeding coyotes.

I can't bare it. George, express mail me a cheese whit for comfort food.
 
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you wont Fries whit, also ?
 
Okanagan,

In my two stories above[both true BTW]. These coyotes in the same area. Will not come remotely close to you or vice versa near/during hunting season. Yet seem to know when there is little danger otherwise.

Reasoning? I believe they have that capabilty, personally[although primative as it may be]. I'm sure most people would/will disagree with my opinion on that.

Some may state, everything a coyote knows or does, is from positive/negative experiences. Some say, some of what they know or do, is inherent/congenital from birth. Interesting discussion, regardless.
 
Okanagan, I think you left soemthing out of the "call shy" example, or at least i have a different take on what constitutes a call shy or educated coyote.

If a wild coyote[s} come to the call and doesn't get shot at or one gets killed and the other escapes, that is an educated coyote. if he is called and nothing happens, he can be called again. I've done it many times, to my wife's chagrin. She likes her cats, and thinks my calling nearby coyotes into gun range on the back porch is a danger to them.

Now don't get me wrong, I like cats, I just can't eat a whole one myself. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

There is a difference between an educated coyote and a trained coyote. This is a trained coyote:

coyotemax1-1.jpg


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Do I think a coyote remembers? Yes. I think a coyote has short term memory and long term conditioning in most cases. Some coyotes might remember longer than others. Some never remember anything. Just my guess because I once had a black lab who for 8 years could never remember that there was a screen door behind the sliding glass door. I’m not sure the about relationship between remembering and learning.

Say what you will about the absurdity of the hypothetical news reports, but some day it will likely happen and be reported in much the same fashion. It’s inevitable regardless what the real facts are. Everyone here can agree that the credo of the news media is to never let the facts ruin a good story. If you don’t believe that then you have my sympathies. I can envision some sad looking news anchor woman in a yellow pant suit starting off the headline evening news saying “Today a young child was viciously attacked and mauled by a wild coyote”. The fact that the kid was throwing rocks at a trapped coyote and got too close is irrelevant.

Coyotes find food sources by their nose, by sight and by sound. The original question concerns sound. That’s our game.

Sound triggers a response and I believe that sounds elevates, heightens and sometimes agitates the coyote to either come looking for food or an invader (depending on the sound). The sounds we project puts them into a hunt, attack or kill mode. Just because the coyote’s hunt was interrupted by a camo-clad hunter with a camera doesn’t mean that the coyote realizes that the rabbit or coyote invader he was looking for wasn’t really there or that it was just a joke played on him by a human. [beeep] bipeds. Grrrrr.

How many times have you watched a coyote merrily come your way only to be side-tracked by flushing a rabbit or stop to mouse? We all have those stories. Your sound brought him and he was rewarded. I imagine that this happens more than we actually see. If Mr. Coyote comes in and gets no biscuit it is of no consequence because he’s used to that happening. Did the camera sounds and human figure scare the coyote enough to cause it to never come back to the area ever again? Not a chance. Some coyotes may run like he** for a hundred yards and others may just slip away into the bushes quartering away, looking back to keep an eye on you. It happens both ways. I read it on the internet.

By calling coyotes you are purposefully trying everything you can to create a coyote/human encounter is it not? You’re using sounds, smells and furry little decoys and SURPRISE! I FOOLED YOU! WE HAVE A COYOTE/HUMAN ENCOUNTER.

I believe that without any adverse consequence or trauma, that the coyote’s comfort levels with humans will shrink. What was once 500 yards may now become 400 yards, 200 yards or even 20 feet much like Tony’s deer. I believe that calling coyote’s whether wild or urban is just another form of feeding. What separates the camera buff wanting pictures of coyotes from the one wanting pictures of butterflies it that ALL coyotes have the tools, ability and wherewithal to cause harm.

My answer to the question I initially posed is yes. Even though it is, as far as I know legal, I would be upset to hear the wail of a varmint caller near my house when my grandchildren were visiting and playing outside. If I lived in an area where shooting was allowed, I would anxiously wait for the sweet sound of a gunshot. As the comfort zone of a coyote shrinks, mine increases.

Note: Where I currently live, coyotes are virtually non-existent so the sound of a predator call would not be of any concern to me.
 
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you wont Fries whit, also ?



Ooohhhhh yes!!! I can relate to that post in a meaningful way.



The sandwich looks good, but I'll pass on those inflamed, shriveled up testicles. What the heck are they from? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
Redfrog, we're pretty close to the same. I don't say an educated coyote can't be called, only that most of them in my experience are harder to call a second time, even if it is a single that did not get shot at with a bow. The surprise of human instead of rabbit is negative enough to make them wary. That's why we change sounds, exact locations, etc.

I guess my difference comes down to my view that calling a coyote to a human scares all of them in my experience. If there is any conditioning it is to avoid that situation again. He might get so he ignores calls, and most of us have seen that.

But I've seen neither personal experience evidence nor logic here that makes me think that calling a coyote conditions him to seek contact of any kind with humans.

Our mileage does vary. This is starting to feel like a move into stubborn and that's never my intent. George had it right on the whys of this topic, and your post dismissing his perception showed that underneath you had the same idea, though it was a wise way to sideslip that hazard and keep on with the flow. I've enjoyed the banter, have no emotional stake in this, and feel like we are starting to repeat ourselves, but maybe there is more.

added: Wow. Several posts while I was typing.

 
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I'll pass on those inflamed, shriveled up testicles. What the heck are they from?



They are RED! They are from a REDFROG! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Oh buddy, you left yourself wide open for that one. Besides, it's better it comes from me.
 
Jay, you realize of course that you are creating a news media reason for banning all coyote calling. I don't think that is your intent but it is inevitable if this course of argument has any validity. If calling a critter that we don't get a shot at endangers other humans, none of us should be calling toothy predators anywhere.
 
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