Wolf shot in SD

WOLFERC Good, you read the study. Good, you know drive by hunting is legal for predators. Those wolves shot were shot by 'fair chase'(the guy who followed one on his snowmobile for 30 miles before he got it? questionable) and all of them were outside the trophy area, several were live stock killers and were taken around cattle. All of it was done legally I might add. The judge re-instated protected status of the wolves BECAUSE of a one liner in the original project plan calling for 'ensured genetic diversity for the dispersed packs' within the project area; well, dispersal is now in/out, and into adjacent states and guess who is hanging their hats 'genetic diversity', project area be da@#%^. Wyoming didn't ask for this, Wyoming doesn't want this, and Wyoming will (I believe) continue to fight this. No one will successfully(I believe) pit Idaho and Montana(and now Washington, Oregon, Colorado as well) against our beliefs and life style and win because they have experiences the same as ours. Pitting state to state, suing 'because', rabble rousing and accusing, works well to proliferate the wolf by creating delaying tactics. Its time to 'fish' instead of cut bait. As to the 'fool' portion of your one liner? I have to overlook that, and, believe me, its easy to do.....
 
I lived in WY when the reintroduction took place and attended several of the public meetings. The State game pros (those actually in charge of game management) were adamantly against the reintroduction for any number of reasons not the least of which being they doubted the premise (promised by the Feds) that wolves would be restricted to the park (which premise has since proved to be laughable of course).

I find the idea that somehow all animals should be protected as a natural part of the ecosystem to be specious at best. Large predators were indigenous to ALL of North America when the first Europeans came. They were "wiped out" because they don't co-exist with civilization very well. Should we reintroduce large predators (bear, wolves, cats) nationwide? After all, mountain lions, wolves and griz are "endangered species" even more so in FL, VA, GA, etc than they are out west.

How about non-predatory species? Bison once roamed the plains in the millions. Should we reintroduce them as well? Of course that would eliminate just about all civilization from MO to the Rockies including roads and rail (much less farms, ranches, towns and cities) but it was at one time the "natural" ecosystem.

No one (that I know) is advocating the extinction of any species (I would disagree with the eradication of wolves, griz, etc in the wilderness in AK or Canada as strongly and I disagreed with their reintroduction in WY, MT, ID, etc), but it's foolish not to recognize the difficulties (or impossibilities) of allowing some species to co-mingle with human civilization. Unfortunately the USFWS seem to have been infused with fools who advocate exactly that. They seem to have been taken over by radical "greens" who have animal primacy as their agenda to the detriment of humans. Not by setting aside wilderness areas (which I support) but by allowing (and encouraging) predator re-population of areas already inhabited and used by man.

As an illustration, here's a reasonably accurate re-telling of part of a conversation I was a part of with two very highly placed wildlife officials, each the director of very large (multi million acre) regions in the South West, and each the boss of numerous game wardens, concerning the (re-introduced) Mexican Wolf. I'll change the names and not identify the specific areas (to protect the guilty, lol) but I assure you the conversation took place substantively as related:

Fred: Your wolves are coming across the river and killing our calves (trophy elk herd), what are we going to be able to do about it?

Joe: All our wolves are accounted for and they are all on this side of the river.

Fred: No, I'm telling you, there are some down here and they have already killed a couple of calves. We need to get them out of here.

Joe: Listen to what I'm saying Fred, ALL of our wolves are accounted for and are on this side of the river.

Fred: So if my guys kill your wolves there won't be any repercussions?

Joe: If it's south of the river it must be a really large coyote and not a wolf, because all of our wolves are up here. I don't even need to hear about it.

Pretty sad when wildlife officials, even the ones in charge of managing the re-introduction, have to find ways to skirt the rules laid out by D.C. bureaucrats, but that's the political reality we live in. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

That situation often leaves private persons (and even State wildlife officials) with some hard choices. As admin here I would never advocate (or allow anyone else to openly advocate) illegal actions, and in fact I personally would not purposely shoot a wolf illegally except in self defense, if for no other reason than that I jealously guard my legal firearms owner status. If I were a rancher I might feel differently, though I would never tell anyone, especially in a public forum.
 
this has been an interesting read to say the least.......
all i want to add is:

there are folks here i would want to hunt/camp with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

and

there are folks here i would not hunt/camp with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

but overall this is an example of how our system works.
only in America! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
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Well I am going to go against the grain here and say that it is a shame that this female wolf was killed. Wolves are endangered and we should make every effort to preserve the species.

As it most likely was an honest mistake, I am not saying the hunter should be cited.

But it's a shame that it happened.

Just my 2 cents.



You're definitely going against the grain with that comment. Most likely this guy was just doing the right thing by reporting the incident to authorities, who most likely cited him and he'll now have a criminal record because of it. I would have shot them both and left them where they fell.


Yes, I am going against the grain. It's a shame that it happened, inadvertently or not. I don't subscribe to illegal hunting activities. And I most certainly wouldn't put this out on a public forum for everyone to see.



BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....I don't care what you would or wouldn't do. It's most certainly not a shame the wolf got shot. Many wolves get shot every year where they're not protected and they are considered a nuisance in virtually every place they inhabit. There are a few animals that were never able to co-exist peacefully with man, one of them is the wolf. Living in New Jersey you probably haven't come close to having to deal with wolves like landowners and ranchers have out west. So you really don't have much business shunning people who kill them.


I am not shunning anyone. I am against the illegal killing of game animals. I put forth my position here because I feel strongly about it.

You ought to consider the ramifications of the the actions you are a proponent of, and of putting your thoughts of these actions on a public forum. You don't think the antis are reading this looking for ammunition to use against us? Do you EVER want to see a wolf season and proper management of same? Just keep putting your improper comments on the net. You will kill the chances for wolf hunting seasons in the future.

And if you would have paid attention to the rest of this thread, you would have learned of our black bear problem here in NJ. No, I don't have to deal with wolves here. But the bear are a threat to our families and our pets / livestock. We have been forced to coexist with the bears, much like you and the wolf. So I can empathize with your plight.

We can legally kill bears here if they are are threatening humans and/or damaging property. I have no problem with you killing wolves. Just do it legally.



You are comparing black bears to wolves? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif You just don't get it.

This is hopeless.


It's a comparable situation. I am not comparing the species.

But you knew that already.
 
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nmleon

well said /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

one of the few that have made any sense


+1 from New Jersey.
 
All in all we are stuck. Many predicted this issue yeas ago. The simple fact is never trust the Feds. Worse yet even now many feds are ok with the delisting and hunting, but the stupid liberals are messing everything up in courts.

Those looking for help. May consider teh SFW (Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife). Here is a link. Of all the various sportsmen groups they take the stances that this is a states rights issue. They are working hard to keep the WY plan as is and not allow the state to backdown. I joined as a nonresident simply because if they pass the plan as it stands my state has a long time before they will have to start managing wolves. Since there will be a several hundred mile shoot on sight zone, with oout that zone we can kiss the elk herds in our area of the state good bye as well. Most people here think I am nuts, but I can see my liberal state protecting wolves at all cost.

For more information on the SFW click here. When I joined I got a great set of buck knives.

http://www.wysfw.org/home
 
I do not care where somebody is from East or West or what they think about game management, wolves, coyotes,etc or political affiliation... but if you are killing an animal illegally(except self defense) and bragging about it because you do not agree with the Federal or State laws you have to be prosecuted. There can't be any exception because exception creates anarchy and this is USA we do not allow anarchist here.
There are posts in this tread encouraging people not to follow the law because they believe the law is wrong and they are right.
There ways to fight in our political system and you have to follow the proper channels even if you don't like it. It is called democracy and even though it has it's flaws it is the greatest system in the world.
 
Doubleplay,

Tell that to the people who have dealt with this issue for 8 years now. When the system is broke it is up to us to fix it. The ultimate power of our system lies not in the politics, but in the power of the citizens. This is a broke system. After fighting it for years the last option is to deal with things with the only options left. If the system will not fix teh problem or allow the thousands of residents in the states of WY, Mt, and ID deal with the issue then there comes a time when the law must be violated.

Calling it anarchy is not correct. We are not calling for complete lack of laws. The very basis of our government hinges on the fact that people should have the power. When that power is lost then we have the option to use means nessecary. Ultimately not a single one of us would say go break the law, but the governemnt, lawmakers and the system has failed. In that case there is really no other option. At somepoints in time it takes an illegal act to change history and right a wrong. Unfortunately if the system does not right itself soon then individuals will resort to breaking the law to attempt a fix.
 
ELKS +1 I don't advocate breaking the law either. What has happened between Id., Wyo., Mont., and the feds; instigated by those who 'know better' may well result in vigilante behavior. Again, we have played by the rules and no one else has. Predator designation is in the Wyoming constitution. Accept our plan for what it is, trust us to do the 'right' thing, and, believe we will prosecute those who violate the law. Nothing more to be said from here. I've worn out the speech.!!
 
Double play, while the government kills over 100 wolves a year, if I were to shoot one I would go to jail and/or pay huge fines! You wouldnt like it if everyone besides North Carolina made a law that only applies in North Carolina would you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
Great read guys! I find it very interesting the differing views of people on here...
Well, I live in Northern Idaho and yes, the wolves are running around in my neck of the woods. Lots of things you hear about 'em out here are fact and much of it is fiction. Alot of people tell me that the wolves are wiping out our elk heard. Did you know that we have a "green field hunt," aka, the orphan hunt? During this hunt, which takes place in early August, one is allowed to harvest a cow. It is known as the orphan hunt since many believe that the late born calves that accompany the cows starve to death if mom is shot. Two for the price of one, if you will. Heck, we have so many elk up here, the F&G opened a new cow hunt for late winter with an additional 250 tags. So why slaughter cows if the wolves are decimating our herds?
One thing that the wolves are doing is making the elk act more like......well, elk! Many locals complain that the wolves are eating the elk since they no longer see them at their hunting spot. It never dawns on them that the elk might be changing their patterns due to the wolves. I also notice that many of these hunters hunt from an atv... Many hunters still think that many elk will let them ride right up to 'em like they used to 10 years ago. Those days are mostly long gone. I watched a herd of elk lift their heads last archery season and head into the bush when they heard an atv. Guessing the atv was at least 1/2 mile away when the elk started moving.
One thing the wolves have done is make the elk much less vocal. I bowhunt near the original wolf release point in the state of Idaho. Lots and lots of elk, but they are quiet elk!!! Walked into three different herds last fall that never made a peep. Would've been great with my 1895GS, but totally lousy with a bow!
All that being said, there is absolutely no reason not to have a wolf season. Their population is in no danger from hunting and should be managed by hunting before we are forced to use poison. Exponential growth needs to be checked, and soon.

Jim
 
Obviously the guy who shot the wolf made a mistake. But they put ranchers and others in a tough position by re-introducing these critters and then dealing with them like they do. For game officials to begin any action on a problem wolf they have to a 100% verified wolf kill. Alot of times that is difficult to prove after a few days and the wolves go on to destroy more property before it's confirmed. The only animals that ranchers get reimbursed for are the confirmed wolf kills. The G&F has spent alot of money tracking these animals and dealing with the problems which certainly doesn't sit well with most sportsmen who are responsible for paying for their services. Certainly I wouldn't ever promote illegally taking game but this problem is unique with the challenges it presents. In reality I wouldn't kill a wolf if I seen one but I can't say I wouldn't want to. If they are listed as a predator outside of the Natl. Parks as has been brought forth by some states(and I think they should) then I wouldn't think twice about pulling the trigger.
 
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Alot of people tell me that the wolves are wiping out our elk heard. Did you know that we have a "green field hunt," aka, the orphan hunt? During this hunt, which takes place in early August, one is allowed to harvest a cow. It is known as the orphan hunt since many believe that the late born calves that accompany the cows starve to death if mom is shot. Two for the price of one, if you will. Heck, we have so many elk up here, the F&G opened a new cow hunt for late winter with an additional 250 tags. So why slaughter cows if the wolves are decimating our herds?




DakotaElkSlayer,

While I agree with some of what you said in your post, you obviously don't know the reasoning behind the "green field tag". While I strongly oppose the tag (due to its expressed purpose), it has nothing to do with an increasing elk population (which is a fallacy). It is solely due to the farmers in the the area lobbying to the state congress to reduce herd numbers (both deer and elk, as there is also an extra doe tag in the same area). The expressed goal of the Idaho Fish and Game was to reduce the herd numbers (elk) by half....but it is because of constant lobbying by a few blue grass farmers. I'm full of it you might say, well one of the stipulations on the tag is that the elk must be killed within a mile of private agricultural ground...a.k.a. a farm. Sounds a little fishy to me. I have hunted for several years around Moscow and the wolves are having a definite impact on game numbers, but to try and say there MUST be plenty of elk if the IDFG is increasing tags is naive...their goals is to severely cut herd numbers in the area due to farming lobbyists. Once again, politics trumping any form of game management.
 
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Doubleplay,

Tell that to the people who have dealt with this issue for 8 years now. When the system is broke it is up to us to fix it. The ultimate power of our system lies not in the politics, but in the power of the citizens. This is a broke system. After fighting it for years the last option is to deal with things with the only options left. If the system will not fix teh problem or allow the thousands of residents in the states of WY, Mt, and ID deal with the issue then there comes a time when the law must be violated.

Calling it anarchy is not correct. We are not calling for complete lack of laws. The very basis of our government hinges on the fact that people should have the power. When that power is lost then we have the option to use means nessecary. Ultimately not a single one of us would say go break the law, but the governemnt, lawmakers and the system has failed. In that case there is really no other option. At somepoints in time it takes an illegal act to change history and right a wrong. Unfortunately if the system does not right itself soon then individuals will resort to breaking the law to attempt a fix.



Elks,
Point taken but:
If the system has failed, you fix it by voting for the right people or making your voice heard by the elected officials. Go join the organizations like Rocky Mountain Elk foundation and contribute to the fight.
You do not right a wrong by doing another wrong. All you do is cause anarchy.
 
There are people in the Maine who think that they can get trapping and hunting stopped because of incidental take.
We have:
Bald Eagles(lots of them), Canadian Lynx(a good population), Wolves?(illeagally introduced), Atlantic Salomon, Cougars?(maybe). All on the endangered list. All being used to discourage hunting and trapping.

There was a wolf shot several years back in western ME but it took 9mos for the Feds to determine that it biologocally was a wolf. I think the whole thing was a set-up. I lost track of the story but they wanted to send the guy to jail. A lot of peices of the story weren't made public on both sides.

Wolves, Lynx and Eagles get caught in cyote and bobcat sets so the Antis are using that against us.
If there are that many lynx being taken by accident, they are probably doing well population wise and shouldn't be listed.

Same with the western animals(wolf,griz,etc.)
 
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