What’s this crazy load development method?

C

CZ527

New member
I have seen 3 different people at the range show up with a brand new rifle, 100 or so loaded rounds, and a chronograph.

They don’t even bother hanging a target half the time, and shoot these rounds about as quickly as possible, taking very short breaks, and essentially cooking their barrel the first day.

Obviosuly, they’re just looking for a good SD from a 5 shot group, but whoever invented this couldn’t possibly have meant for it to be done this way.

There are so many better ways to go about this, but I’m curious who invented it, because I’ve seen it multiple times from these 3 individuals and the two ranges I go to are about 300 miles apart.

Funniest part of it I’ve seen yet was a guy with a brand new SAC 223. Very nice rifle. He fired 20 5 shot groups, got a BEST SD of 14 (which I wouldn’t have) and somewhere in there fired a couple of decent 1/2” groups. I couldn’t help myself so I asked what’s next? Seating depth? “No, did that yesterday.” I asked how much he figured his throat moved and he said none.... it was just 100 rounds. I just said ok cool thanks, but I was really thinking he’s probably 55 off now since he just shot 100 rounds in 60 minutes....

Anyway, just thought it was pretty off the wall. What’s this called, and who else finds it a little crazy?
 
if 100 rounds in an hour blows the throat out of a 223 barrel - then all my guns are FUBAR. every. single. one.

along with a whole bunch of other folks on here and everywhere else.


i mean i would likely agree with you if it was a caliber known to burn out barrels in 1000 rounds or so... but in a 223? especially one with a quality barrel on it? maybe its my ignorance showing... but i'm not buying it. *shrug*



i'm totally with you in that i have no idea what the heck they're doing with this method - or what method it is - other than gathering chrono data and wasting bullets.
 
I’m not talking about an AR... I’ve done that plenty of times, and if it’ll still bang steel then cool. I wouldn’t do it to a $5,000 custom though.

That one didn’t strike me as hard as the 6x47 Lapua and the 6.5 SAUM I’ve also seen this done with. You KNOW those suckers took a heavy beating.
 
I dont know. It may have popped up from the long range hunting world. A young friend of mine has started doing it also. He looks for the smallest sd before he even thinks of putting it on paper.
 
Then there is the guy who doesn't understand " when was the last time you shot a deer with a hot barrel". Sounds like some "long range sniper" want to be. SD means very little inside 400 yards.
 
That’s correct. I made sure I got mine as low as possible for my 6.5. I couldn’t tell you what it is on my 22x47. I ran precisely 3 of them over a Labradar just out of curiousity.
 
Could be that the fellas you witnessed are off their rockers. Could be that you simply don't understand what is being done, or why.

tlIOyrgh.jpg


TS Customs .223AI
Surgeon 591
KMW Sentinel
Timney 517
Benchmark 16" 5R

I've put an 80rnd string, as fast as I could precisely go through them, on about 3 different occasions with that rifle. Do you think me an idiot? Do you think I buy expensive rifles to stare at them?

Could it be something other than I'm stupid?

Could it be that in order to find out if a rifle is going to drift under heavy use, you have to use it heavily?

Could it be that many serious shooters don't look at barrels as if they are houses or land buys... but rather they look at barrels as if they are tires on a race car?

The fact is that there are many reasons why someone would want to push a rifle to meltdown mode. A guy can learn a LOT by doing so. Especially if it's not that good a barrel to begin with. Especially if it's his first time doing it. This doesn't mean I would do it to every rifle I own, but I've done it to a bunch of them. Barrels are cheap. The components and time I spend... that's expensive. If a rifle is so finicky that it can't take a 20-40rnd string without getting ugly down range... then it has no business being around me.

... or it could be that the guys you witnessed are morons that don't know what they are doing. Are you sure which it is? Are you sure they were stupid? Are you sure they were not doing science? I think all shooters should get the benefit of the doubt. They may have been being dumb, but at least they are shooting, which means they are learning. That 100rnds they shot in that session is more than most shooters will put down range all year.

That .223AI had roughly 700rnds on it and had been abused heavily when I shot this target at 100yds. My load was not, and has not changed since it's inception.
wBCvmGMh.jpg


It would be great if folks would understand that there are all types of shooting disciplines out there. Different things are "right" for each of them. Different things are necessary for success in each of them. If you want to learn, you have to shoot.

... and what I've learned is that there are a ridiculous number of people in this world that spout advice all the time, whom hardly ever shoot. If you're going to shoot, you're going to eat up barrels. It's just part of it. It's not a big deal. Every so often a "special" barrel comes along, and will get treated special. Though most shooters don't shoot enough to recognize one of those barrels anyway.

Could be that I'm jaded. Could be that I'm tired of seeing shooters without the round count or experience necessary, handing out advice. Could be that I'm tired of people trying to be witty and clever bullies on the internet. Could be people need to talk less and shoot more.

Could be...
 
I have shot 5-7 rounds per minute on p. dog towns with sustained fire Until I could not see out of the scope.

I have had access to a bore scope since Mid 80's, and shooting like this causes throats to grow, not to mention fire cracking in the bore.

Barrels were on order all the time as we shot 24-26,000 rounds per year, and typical days on the dog towns then was 600 centerfire on a bad day, and 1200 on a red hot day.

Instead of air cooling the barrels, we started running water down the bore, this extended barrel life as the barrels actually got cool during rotation. Barrels do not cool down when air temps are 90* and above, even if you have 6 guns in rotation.

If you shoot H335 or Win 748, you can get some very long barrel life out of a 223 or AI. If you shoot N133,N135, IMR 4064 or R#15...barrel life is cut way short(depending on what your definition of accuracy). When barrels started shooting 3/4", it was time to set the barrels back.
 
Rather than quote Orkan’s rather long post, I’ll just assume he’s going to come back and read the reply.... could be.

I actually thought before now that other than running your mouth a lot (spouting off facts, but still a little verbose for my taste)
you could be a pretty helpful guy.

I can’t imagine what you’re anticipating that 80 rapidly fired rounds will prepare you for, but I hope I’m not around for it. I’ve got a small fear of zombies.

You probably picked on the wrong guy about mouthing without shooting. No, I don’t shoot 300,000 rounds a year like some people claim to, but I go through a fair share of barrels and consider them to be an expendable resource just like you do. I’ve already ordered another blank for a 6.5 that I picked up from Beanland in June, as I expect it to go south sometime in the next couple of months given the amount of use it has seen. I’ve got just about every morning off, and probably spend 3/5 at the shooting complex down the road from my house. Like you, I’ve seen a thing or two and learned from it.

All that being said, I can’t imagine anyone deliberately accelerating barrel wear performing the kind of load development I’ve described above. I guess if you’re made of money, why not. However, there’s better ways to skin that cat.

Do I think you’re an idiot? Nah, not really. I do think you need to realize that there are other people in this world that hunt, shoot and have a compulsive disorder that makes them continually strive to improve themselves.

You may be a unique snowflake, but you’re one of many.
 
Originally Posted By: CZ527I can’t imagine what you’re anticipating that 80 rapidly fired rounds will prepare you for, Mover stage in PRS? Prairie dog town? Sage rats? Actual rats at trash dump? Pigeon infestation? Many many situations indeed where a shooter could find himself shooting at targets presenting themselves which the desire to shoot them over-runs the rifle's capability to place precise shots. Better to learn ahead of time than when the fun-having is taking place, don't you agree?

Originally Posted By: CZ527You probably picked on the wrong guy about mouthing without shooting. I didn't pick you at all. Don't go taking offense and thinking I'm singling you out when I'm not. If I wanted to single you out, I'm not shy about it.
wink.gif


Originally Posted By: CZ527I’ve got just about every morning off, and probably spend 3/5 at the shooting complex down the road from my house. Like you, I’ve seen a thing or two and learned from it. I shoot every day. Sometimes 5 shots. Sometimes 1000 shots. I don't leave my house to do it. I live on my "range."

Originally Posted By: CZ527All that being said, I can’t imagine anyone deliberately accelerating barrel wear performing the kind of load development I’ve described above. I guess if you’re made of money, why not. However, there’s better ways to skin that cat. If that is what they were doing... load development... I agree with you 100%. Likely fools doing as fools do.
wink.gif
However you used some pretty strong language regarding long strings of fire. They do have merit.

Originally Posted By: CZ527Do I think you’re an idiot? Nah, not really. I do think you need to realize that there are other people in this world that hunt, shoot and have a compulsive disorder that makes them continually strive to improve themselves. Uh... yeah, that was my point. As that was my point, I don't need it explained.
smile.gif


Originally Posted By: CZ527You may be a unique snowflake, but you’re one of many. I don't know about how unique I am. I know that my living situation, round count, profession, and equipment is unique. Never met someone that has their lives so completely built around shooting as mine is. ... and that's not just saying it, I can prove it.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanI have shot 5-7 rounds per minute on p. dog towns with sustained fire Until I could not see out of the scope.

I have had access to a bore scope since Mid 80's, and shooting like this causes throats to grow, not to mention fire cracking in the bore.

Barrels were on order all the time as we shot 24-26,000 rounds per year, and typical days on the dog towns then was 600 centerfire on a bad day, and 1200 on a red hot day.

Instead of air cooling the barrels, we started running water down the bore, this extended barrel life as the barrels actually got cool during rotation. Barrels do not cool down when air temps are 90* and above, even if you have 6 guns in rotation.

If you shoot H335 or Win 748, you can get some very long barrel life out of a 223 or AI. If you shoot N133,N135, IMR 4064 or R#15...barrel life is cut way short(depending on what your definition of accuracy). When barrels started shooting 3/4", it was time to set the barrels back.

That is some good information, esp the part on powder selection. I've long suspected that certain powders ate barrels faster, like RL22. I've shot out a few, but not like you guys go through. Feel free to elaborate on any other powders you feel are rougher or easier on barrels than others.

Also feel I can add, after having a bore cam for just under a year, that it seems like different powders foul very differently. I especially notice that the 8208 I like so much, while it doesn't really foul bores that bad, it leaves some really hard stuff in the throat that, say, A2230 or H335 does not. Would you say that's accurate?
 
The internet, youtube, and all kinds of magazines promote long range shooting. You have to be a sniper class shooter or you can't play, type stuff. It's all geared towards making you buy stuff.

Take for example the fishing industry. With all the Pro fishing circuits, tv, magazine's and the internet. It's all hype. Fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen, not necessarily fish, because fishermen have money. Fish dont.

SD numbers are imortant. Probably the most important number off the chrono. However small SD numbers dont always translate into small groups. Many times i have had SD numbers in the 30's and 40's with excellent groups at closer raange. No problem, but once a group is proven at say 100 or 200yds. Rarely have they worked well at long range with high SD's. Not every low SD groups works well even at all. Frustrating, but it does matter when the load gets right. Usually the SD's are low. Single digit if possible.

Folks eat up long range. If your gun won't shoot 1/2 MOA at 600yds then you can't kill a coyote at stand at a random 123yds.

If you shoot old spire point bullets, you can't shoot accurately and definitely can't shoot long range, because of the plastic tip, vld, sensation.

Makes me wonder how we ever killed coyotes successfully before the advent of the modern time.
 
Originally Posted By: RustydustIt seems that some folks try to go out of their way to get their feelings hurt sometimes.

Oh man, ain't that the truth in spades!
thumbup.gif
 
Back
Top