CAT DADDY COLD
New member
an ol boar coon will give a dog all it wants.
Kelly
Kelly
Starting a new hunting dog.
- Thread starter KyleCoyote
- Start date
For Btec29 and SHampton: what is your belief or theory in general for dogs in this line of work? Let them hunt and be gritty, as long as they listen to you when you call or signal? Or assume they will return based on your training? Are you letting them hunt most animals for their development, or because it doesn't hurt anything? I will have my first mountain cur in Sept, and it should be a hard wired squirrel and coon dog. I wasn't going to encourage it, but hadn't decided if it was something to punish; assuming they can be called off.
Thank you!
Thank you!
btech29
Active member
I will start by saying I only do coyote work on calling stands. That's all my dogs have or will ever do. Different dogs that trail and tree might be a different story. I do not use a dog for that and I will not give an opinion.. Second I don't have a clue how you should train a dog, all I know is what I do.
I like to put a young dog on any kinda fur to build confidence. Even my older dogs are welcome to thrash a skunk as long as it's on their time and not mine. They do know the difference. If they forget I remind them. This is just my personal experience and that's all I have to go on.
Most critters like skunks, coon etc are usually asleep when I'm calling. If on a rare occasion one gets my dogs attention it aint the end of the world. If it gets to that point I need to find another hobby.
I like to put a young dog on any kinda fur to build confidence. Even my older dogs are welcome to thrash a skunk as long as it's on their time and not mine. They do know the difference. If they forget I remind them. This is just my personal experience and that's all I have to go on.
Most critters like skunks, coon etc are usually asleep when I'm calling. If on a rare occasion one gets my dogs attention it aint the end of the world. If it gets to that point I need to find another hobby.
If you have a young pup, just spending time with it, and working on the basics is a great way to spend time with it.
Dog parks are a good way to get them worn out and socialized, not to mention wrestling.
For excercise, take the dog for a walk,
As mine got older, i would take it running with me. We both got in better shape, You can't be in too good of shape for next season.
Dog parks are a good way to get them worn out and socialized, not to mention wrestling.
For excercise, take the dog for a walk,
As mine got older, i would take it running with me. We both got in better shape, You can't be in too good of shape for next season.
Norcalkyle
New member
Since I have seen the words "dog park" mentioned a bit here over the last couple of weeks, I will chime in on my opinion.
I think dog parks are the absolute worst thing you can do for a dog. Every dog park I have seen is a bunch of dogs biting, wrestling, and screwing off with each other. You are telling your dog that when it is around other dogs it is okay to play grab azz. There is no reason in that dogs mind that when in the field and hunting with other dogs that it is not a perfectly good time to play again, which will either get the dog killed or make it a garbage field dog.
When you are at the dog park, you are putting your dog in a place where it will learn all of the bad habits that other clueless owners don't even consider correcting. If you need to socialize the dog, do it while hunting or one on one and be ready to discipline the heck out of it if the biting starts.
I think dog parks are the absolute worst thing you can do for a dog. Every dog park I have seen is a bunch of dogs biting, wrestling, and screwing off with each other. You are telling your dog that when it is around other dogs it is okay to play grab azz. There is no reason in that dogs mind that when in the field and hunting with other dogs that it is not a perfectly good time to play again, which will either get the dog killed or make it a garbage field dog.
When you are at the dog park, you are putting your dog in a place where it will learn all of the bad habits that other clueless owners don't even consider correcting. If you need to socialize the dog, do it while hunting or one on one and be ready to discipline the heck out of it if the biting starts.
KyleCoyote
New member
Do you guys get many YOY yotes or are they more intimidated when they see other dogs? On average what age (estimated) coyotes do you normally get, or is it a good mix? I just wonder if it's still better hunting during the fall when the YOY coyotes have just left the den when hunting with dogs.
SHampton
New member
Kyle, when I hear "dog park" I chuckle and think, are they serious???? I don't need my dogs to socialize. When I pull up and there are 2 or 3 dogs there I need my dog or dogs to get out of the truck when told and get away from those dogs as quickly as possible. I don't need any butt sniffin or wrestling. My yellow dog with the tail has killed 3 dogs in the past four months in the back yard but she acts right away from the house. Very rarely do my dogs have more than 2 days where they don't get hunted or at least taken somewhere and turned out. Until 3 years ago I had never owned a dog for anything, I don't like dogs. I go through a lot of dogs because they aren't pets. If they don't do what I need them to they don't stay at my house.
As for Cowin. The "decoy" dog is a very broad topic. Everyone likes something different. Take TBone for example. He stated he "trained" his dog before he lost it in a divorce. I don't know exactly what all that entails. How many coyotes did the dog work before he considered it trained? I have no idea. Take Jeff, for example. (Btech29) He and I hunt together a lot. He likes a dog to stay close, I like one to go out by the call and go 100-150 past it. DTOM likes a dog to go out 300, 400, 500 yards out and find coyotes and bring them back. Who's way is the correct way? Who's way isn't? It's all in what a guy wants. DTOM might have a few things that he does that actually trains his dog to do that and he might not want his dog messing with any other game. Jeff and I walk to a stand, set the call out and start calling. Our coyotes are usually coming to the call when the dogs see them. We have been drug across the coals because some say that's not decoying. If a coyote is coming to a call you don't need the dog. We do what we do 110% for recreation. We let dozens of coyotes walk each year because we want to see our dogs work and aren't worried about not killing a coyote. It's recreation. If my dogs chases a rabbit or possum or skunk or whatever else I don't care. Is it making her gritty or more gamey? [beeep] if I know. Jeff and I have over 75 videos, probably 60 of them are his, with 16 different dogs. Some of the dogs aren't so great in our opinion but the people that wound up with them love the way they work. As far as coming back on call or signal, of the 75 or more videos I can think of 2 times that I toned a dog back and that was because I was trying to keep the dogs tight for filming purposes. Jeff's dog doesn't even wear a collar. From my experience dogs develop a style and there's not much I can do to change it. We just do it the way we like. If people don't agree that's fine too. I think our videos prove that we spend hours upon hours with these dogs and put a ridiculous amount of coyotes in front of them. We don't train a dang thing, we just give a dog the opportunity to do it.
As for Cowin. The "decoy" dog is a very broad topic. Everyone likes something different. Take TBone for example. He stated he "trained" his dog before he lost it in a divorce. I don't know exactly what all that entails. How many coyotes did the dog work before he considered it trained? I have no idea. Take Jeff, for example. (Btech29) He and I hunt together a lot. He likes a dog to stay close, I like one to go out by the call and go 100-150 past it. DTOM likes a dog to go out 300, 400, 500 yards out and find coyotes and bring them back. Who's way is the correct way? Who's way isn't? It's all in what a guy wants. DTOM might have a few things that he does that actually trains his dog to do that and he might not want his dog messing with any other game. Jeff and I walk to a stand, set the call out and start calling. Our coyotes are usually coming to the call when the dogs see them. We have been drug across the coals because some say that's not decoying. If a coyote is coming to a call you don't need the dog. We do what we do 110% for recreation. We let dozens of coyotes walk each year because we want to see our dogs work and aren't worried about not killing a coyote. It's recreation. If my dogs chases a rabbit or possum or skunk or whatever else I don't care. Is it making her gritty or more gamey? [beeep] if I know. Jeff and I have over 75 videos, probably 60 of them are his, with 16 different dogs. Some of the dogs aren't so great in our opinion but the people that wound up with them love the way they work. As far as coming back on call or signal, of the 75 or more videos I can think of 2 times that I toned a dog back and that was because I was trying to keep the dogs tight for filming purposes. Jeff's dog doesn't even wear a collar. From my experience dogs develop a style and there's not much I can do to change it. We just do it the way we like. If people don't agree that's fine too. I think our videos prove that we spend hours upon hours with these dogs and put a ridiculous amount of coyotes in front of them. We don't train a dang thing, we just give a dog the opportunity to do it.
When I hear "dog park" I picture urban and suburban postage stamped size piece of land with a fenced yard if your lucky, with little or no access to open tracks of land. I can't see why you would choose to go to a dog park vs. just going out and hunting or roaming. My dogs socialize with other dogs at just about every ranch, farm and homestead I hunt and I have no need for them to play roly poly with a poodle in a fenced yard.
I don't know about others, but just about every "decoy" dog I have ever owned would have been a nightmare for both me and the neighborhood, heck every dog I've owned probably would fall in that category.
Not saying you can't just that it would require a ton of extra work if you couldn't walk out the back door or jump in the UTV and be hunting. It would take a lot of dedication to put enough coyote in front of a dog. It takes a ton of work when you can hunt right out the yard. I can't imagine having to drive a bunch just to work a dog. It would be hard to work them the way it truly takes. There are reasons why no one knew about using dogs until some "mainstreamed" them.
Just my dumb country boy opinion.
Tim
I don't know about others, but just about every "decoy" dog I have ever owned would have been a nightmare for both me and the neighborhood, heck every dog I've owned probably would fall in that category.
Not saying you can't just that it would require a ton of extra work if you couldn't walk out the back door or jump in the UTV and be hunting. It would take a lot of dedication to put enough coyote in front of a dog. It takes a ton of work when you can hunt right out the yard. I can't imagine having to drive a bunch just to work a dog. It would be hard to work them the way it truly takes. There are reasons why no one knew about using dogs until some "mainstreamed" them.
Just my dumb country boy opinion.
Tim
SHampton
New member
I first saw a video called "Coyote Hunting has gone to the Dogs." When you produce a video and sell it to the public you really have no right to get upset when others buy it and start trying to do it. I wonder if those fellas could go back if they would do that again? Now, there's another fella that started trying to make money off the decoy dog deal. He created so many misconceptions that it wasn't even funny. He knew people didn't know the first thing about it and he didn't either. He just kind of made it up as he went telling people what they wanted to hear. He fixed it so if you googled decoy dogs his name is what you saw. How do I know? It happened to me. I still see people confused or having unrealistic expectations be cause of the smoke and mirrors. If you can't put coyotes in front of a dog you can go to the best dog park in the world or have the most disciplined dog ever but it won't make a flip. I sold a super nice dog the beginning of April. She went from seeing/working 2-3 or more coyotes a week to not seeing one for 9 weeks. Will she do a good job when she sees one? I hope she will. I know what she did when she left here so that's all I can really do. I'd [beeep] sure give him his money back and go get her if he's not happy.
Originally Posted By: KyleCoyoteDo you guys get many YOY yotes or are they more intimidated when they see other dogs? On average what age (estimated) coyotes do you normally get, or is it a good mix? I just wonder if it's still better hunting during the fall when the YOY coyotes have just left the den when hunting with dogs.
You will have guys telling you they take dogs on every stand year round and that's great but using dogs this way has traditionally been associated with denning not fur hunting. So you are generally dealing with a mated pair of breeding age and occasionally a dry female, yoy, or other beta coyotes. Most alpha coyotes will not allow betas to breed but as in all natural very few rules are cast in stone and there are always exceptions and animal behavior that lies outside of the average. Den hunting them with dogs draws on their territorial instinct and to protect the den from the intruding dogs or to protect their hunting territory and food supply that they will need for raising pups.
Hunting yoy coyotes in the fall dispersal is what I would consider the worst time to use a dog as the yoy coyotes can be very vary of anything they think can kill them. Good time to call dumb inexperienced coyotes who are hungry but not many in my experience will work a dog to get a dinner.
Tim
You will have guys telling you they take dogs on every stand year round and that's great but using dogs this way has traditionally been associated with denning not fur hunting. So you are generally dealing with a mated pair of breeding age and occasionally a dry female, yoy, or other beta coyotes. Most alpha coyotes will not allow betas to breed but as in all natural very few rules are cast in stone and there are always exceptions and animal behavior that lies outside of the average. Den hunting them with dogs draws on their territorial instinct and to protect the den from the intruding dogs or to protect their hunting territory and food supply that they will need for raising pups.
Hunting yoy coyotes in the fall dispersal is what I would consider the worst time to use a dog as the yoy coyotes can be very vary of anything they think can kill them. Good time to call dumb inexperienced coyotes who are hungry but not many in my experience will work a dog to get a dinner.
Tim
KyleCoyote
New member
I'm not real interested in taking my dog to the park anyway. I just moved out to a pretty rural area due to my line of work and I've got to stay in shape so I will be taking her on runs every other day or so. We don't have a dog park here that I know of.
I could see them picking up a few bad habits from other dogs though, and I don't think i'd want to risk it with the amount of time that will go into training her/keeping her fit etc.
I'm going to get a few of my traps out again when I get time and see if I can't get her out on a few coons when she gets a little older.
What times of the year do you usually run them with dogs? I would imagine that winter around the breeding season would be pretty good right?
Is there a place other than Ebay where people might have some used GPS/Training collars that they are selling? I can't quite justify the $$ quite yet unless I sell my AR-15 (I am planning on getting a prairie panther anyway later on, I currently own a DPMS Oracle.)
I could see them picking up a few bad habits from other dogs though, and I don't think i'd want to risk it with the amount of time that will go into training her/keeping her fit etc.
I'm going to get a few of my traps out again when I get time and see if I can't get her out on a few coons when she gets a little older.
What times of the year do you usually run them with dogs? I would imagine that winter around the breeding season would be pretty good right?
Is there a place other than Ebay where people might have some used GPS/Training collars that they are selling? I can't quite justify the $$ quite yet unless I sell my AR-15 (I am planning on getting a prairie panther anyway later on, I currently own a DPMS Oracle.)
btech29
Active member
I dont use a "decoy" dog, I have grown to hate that word. I call coyotes, I just happen to take a dog with me.
Kyle, normally the older coyotes are the best when it comes to working the dogs, but not always. In Sept and October I have seen some mean suckers that were not a year old. Just the other day we called in three and one was older than the hills and was a sissy while a yearling was the aggressor, but that is not typical. The older breeding coyotes are the ones that typically put on the best show. That is the problem for guys that hunt alot. The older coyotes work the dog so they are the ones that die. After a while you hurt your age structure and have less and less coyotes that will work. Then you need more and more new ground. Like Scott said we do this for fun. My take is very different from some of the others on this subject.
Kyle, normally the older coyotes are the best when it comes to working the dogs, but not always. In Sept and October I have seen some mean suckers that were not a year old. Just the other day we called in three and one was older than the hills and was a sissy while a yearling was the aggressor, but that is not typical. The older breeding coyotes are the ones that typically put on the best show. That is the problem for guys that hunt alot. The older coyotes work the dog so they are the ones that die. After a while you hurt your age structure and have less and less coyotes that will work. Then you need more and more new ground. Like Scott said we do this for fun. My take is very different from some of the others on this subject.
I run coons and for a very short time each year I run bobcats. I also use the dogs as catch dogs for terrier work and on the trapline. Mine also do light herding work and protect the stock and homestead.
I think the dog park comments were not directed at you but at the same few guys who bring it up on just about every decoy post. I constantly hear about letting your dog wrestle with other dogs at the dog park as if you gain anything by playing grab a!! with other dogs or it is some kind of replacement for dumping coyotes on a dog.
The most important thing without doubt is how many coyotes you work with a dog. There are no short cuts to putting numbers of coyotes in front of a dog. The coyotes will teach a dog more about working them then you could ever hope to. Get the dog under control and acting decent and then dump on the coyotes. If you want to run coon. Same thing...just dump on the coon. Either your dog will turn on or they won't. Do it for the rest of the dogs hunting life and you will have a fine dog.
I don't believe a dog is ever fully trained. Especially not in a year or two.
Be careful who you listen to as some seem to be more intrested in having a fully trained "decoy dog" then an actual working fur dog. Don't buy the hype. Most who have had more than one or two dogs know a dog is hardly ever fully trained but more of a continuous work in progress. You will also have to weed through the legions of followers who have "hunted" with dogs a time or two and now know how it works and are not afraid to tell you what they think they know right or wrong, usually wrong.
Just enjoy the dog.
I think the dog park comments were not directed at you but at the same few guys who bring it up on just about every decoy post. I constantly hear about letting your dog wrestle with other dogs at the dog park as if you gain anything by playing grab a!! with other dogs or it is some kind of replacement for dumping coyotes on a dog.
The most important thing without doubt is how many coyotes you work with a dog. There are no short cuts to putting numbers of coyotes in front of a dog. The coyotes will teach a dog more about working them then you could ever hope to. Get the dog under control and acting decent and then dump on the coyotes. If you want to run coon. Same thing...just dump on the coon. Either your dog will turn on or they won't. Do it for the rest of the dogs hunting life and you will have a fine dog.
I don't believe a dog is ever fully trained. Especially not in a year or two.
Be careful who you listen to as some seem to be more intrested in having a fully trained "decoy dog" then an actual working fur dog. Don't buy the hype. Most who have had more than one or two dogs know a dog is hardly ever fully trained but more of a continuous work in progress. You will also have to weed through the legions of followers who have "hunted" with dogs a time or two and now know how it works and are not afraid to tell you what they think they know right or wrong, usually wrong.
Just enjoy the dog.
By the way one of the most enjoyable stands I have ever made started out like a dead turd until one of the dogs caught a rabbit and the whole neighborhood of coyotes showed up and chased my female around for about an hour trying to steal her bunny from her. I don't mind mine chasing rabbits, or hunting mice ect... I much prefer it to a dog that just sits at my side until I sic it on a coyote.
Tim
Tim
Carlos Halfcock
New member
Congrats on the heeler. Toughest dogs ever I think. I don't know how many you will get to shoot with a heeler though since they will probably kill most of the coyotes before you get to.