I witnessed Watson's wizardry

A .223? You need a swift my friend. Well for the coyotes anyway. I think you would end up with fur burgers if you used them much on Gray Fox. I think your pellet gun should work just fine on them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif LOL

You drive right through Nebraska on your way to Texas so you should stop in for a day and I will show you first hand how to properly anchor a coyote. I even have an extra swift or two lying around you could borrow. LOL

Good hunting.

Q,
 
I've killed hundreds of fox with it and there's less damage than with most guns. Of course the load I shoot has a lot to do with it. I used to shoot a swift, that was before I reloaded,and the bullets were too high, then I started reloading(years ago) and the .223 already had a home. i slowed it down to 3300fps and use a 55 gr ballistic tip. It kills good and don't do a lot of damage. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to shoot a gun that has limitations like the .17 does? The swift and the .223 both kill and does pretty good through a little brush, kills out past 300 yds and kills at 20 yds too. The bust through shoulder bones and chest bones getting plenty of penetration. They are flat shooting and deadly accurate. I think I'll go out and kill something.
 
Good Idea Hammer. Maybe if he'll leave the scope on it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Like the Indian said on Dances with wolves..."good trade"
 
You know, it just dawned on me why he wears those tennis shoes. I guess he had to chase a few of them down. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Man, Now you guys are hurting my feelings. I have an open wound here and the salt being generously applied and rubbed into it stings. If I had a fence that needed building, I'd have a BDL Custom Deluxe in .17 rem for a corner-post.

But, you can all make it better if you start collecting for that new .223. And, hey, if you wanted to buy me an NEF, I'd be fine with that.
 
Randy B. I wouldn’t swap out the .17 for an NEF or even make it in to a corner post. With the price of iron the way it is you would be further ahead by scraping it out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Before I went to the swift I shot a .223 as well. I shot 55 BTs out of it and it worked fine but didn’t have the punch I wanted/needed for the long range shooting. The flatter shooting swift also makes it easier to hit coyotes out to a little over 300 yards because you can hold “in” coyote.

I also agree that penetration is very important and getting through the point of the shoulder can be a tuff proposition some times even with a swift. That is what is nice about the Nosler BTs. They have a solid copper boat tale that just keeps on going after it sheds off the bullet.

In Africa with my set up, if you can see the body of the jackal you can hold in (or under the best conditions) right on top of a jackals shoulder and you got him. That rule applies to the Light Force 170 with the factory red lens.

If I had many fox around here I would have to make some changes but for now I will just handle things “swiftly.” LOL

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Hmmm. "Hunting the Night Shift on the Dark Continent." I see potential here.

Watson, if your cat skills transfer over, we should be able to pick up about a dozen lion scenes in a long weekend....
 
The Swift would probably do the same job on these fox as my .22-250 does. It can get a little messy, that's for sure. But to look at the positive side, it sure lightens up those fox for the walk back to the truck! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rusty
 
Buker, Stand yer ground bud. Don't let 'em sway ya. How many shots are taken at night from over 100 yds....much less 300! And, I hate to think of what a swift or a .223 would do to beautiful, prime Minesota red fox hide. Stick with that M7-17 fur your dirty work in MN. If you have to have something bigger for TX well, do whatever you have to do to keep getting invited back down there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Still on the factory Remington loads? I just recieved a shipment of .17 caliber 30 grain golds (BTHPs)from Todd Kindler at the Woodchuck Den. I also have some of his 29 grain BTHPs. Send me some brass and we can try again. I think the 30 grainers, a Hodgon extreme like 4895 with your brass neck-sized would be a good recipe.
JB
 
Yes Randy you do need to go to Africa. Every serious predator hunter needs to make the trip at least once in there lifetime. If you ever get serious about going get a hold of me and I will help you out in any way I can.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Dont want to get in the middle of you alls arguement here...but...I was wondering if Randy has used the 204 or seen it used. I know Randy and I hunt the same type country and probably have the same type shots in Texas. I am not saying it is better or worse than anything else but seems like it would be the happy medium between the 17 and the bigger 223, 220, etc. I know that I have seen and shot a lot of cats with a 220 and I lose a lot of $$$ of the furs. They are dead though. Just ordered a 204 and hope it holds up to all the praise it has gotten recently. Any thoughts on the 204 Randy?
 
Thanks Q. I will do that.

TXwhitetail, I have not tried the 204. The load I use is very fur friendly. We killed 8 coyotes last night with no pelt damage from the balistic tips.

BTW, I've seen cats and coyotes, even fox run off inside of 100 yds with the .17, and yes, that is a great idea, use it up there, but if you come down here, leave it at home. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I am a witness to the ballistic tips that Randy shoots out of his .223. Absolutely no fur damage whatsoever.....couldn't even find the entrance wound on the majority of his kills. I'm sold on that caliber and load, that's for sure. It kills better than the 55 grain soft points I shoot due to the fact that when his bullet enters the animal, it explodes and all of the energy is absorbed inside the body, causing a ton of internal damage while not exiting. The soft points that I have been shooting tend to pass completely through the animal, and the coyote was more prone to spin, bite and run a distance before dropping.....not to mention that the energy of the bullet wasn't fully absorbed by the coyote since it would exit and keep going. True, both loads might have killed equally, but I feel he is definately going to get more "bang, flops" with his load, even though it's running considerably slower than mine. I've had the opportunity to talk to Randy about his load testing over the years and the various results he's had with different loads, and I'm a firm believer in the load he shoots. I'm about as green as they come when it comes to reloading, but it doesn't take a lot of knowledge to realize that after looking at all of the kills that he racks up on a consistent basis.....from 45 lb. coyotes and cats down to 5 lb. grays. How many of you have seen any bad blow-ups in those pics....even on those small grays? Not many...if any at all.

The way I look at it is that he's literally in the "business" of killing predators with his guide service, and if he had run across something better over the years, I think he'd be using it. The load he has now seems to perform pretty much the same on both the big predators and small ones......22 sized entrance hole and no exit.......and most importantly a dead critter. True, if he ONLY killed coyotes, he might shoot a different load, or maybe even a different caliber all together, but with the wide variety of predators with varying size that we have out here, he has found a caliber and load that works quite well on all of them.

The only bad part about all of this is that I'm now in the market for reloading info. and equipment!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Take it easy, fellas!

Rusty
 
Hey Q, I got to do a little calling when I was in Africa too! I didnt stack em up like you did, but I did manage to call up a nasty hyena! I was in a Lion blind in a tree, and he literally walked underneath us before my friend busted him! It is a serious rush to call when you know there are lions and leopards within earshot! I will be going back! Soon.
 
Hey Randy,
Thanks for the reply. Just so everyone knows I was not trying to nock the 223 or any other caliber or bullet. I was just asking if Randy had used the 204. I have shot most of my varmints fox to coyotes with a 222 magnum with ballistic tip handloads that were slowed down considerably also. Probably performed about like the 223 you all are using. Have a 204 on the way and will find out if I like it.
JR
 
I think the 204 will be a good cartridge, but again, I think it is all about the load. A good combination of loads, considering bullet weight,configuration and velocity, will assure a clean,quick kill with minimal palt damage, even on a small animal. BTW, if any of ya'll get a chance to hunt with Rusty, do it, he's a great guy and a very good varmint caller. I had a chance to hunt with him the other night and really enjoyed it. I think you'll see a LOT of dead stuff he's responsible for over the next few years.

That's the great thing about this board. All you guys are great people and love the sport like I have for 38 years(dang, I'm old :eek: )The youger guys are really blessed with a huge wealth of information, as well as us old guys(I really don't feel 50 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif ). I have heard some of the young guns come up with some really good stuff over the years, and I love to see the new excitement that I know will keep our sport alive and growing for years and years.
Now, GET OUT THERE AND KILL SOMETHING!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Buker
Instead of a "get buker a 223" fund you can do a "buy cracker a ticket" fund and I"ll fly down with you. then you can use my 223, now this might not sound like such a good deal but if you knew my love for my little darling, you would realize that I'm offering you the love of my life.(Glad the wife never comes to this site and not a word to her.) she is a mini however shes been to the plastic surgen and has had a new douglas barrel put on her. just like nice long legs she is a fast shooter and a looker. she has a nice well rounded firefly on top and its very fun to handle, while not the biggest up above she has an ample 1.5 x 4.5 more than that ive been told is a waste anyhow so I was glad to hear she didn't want the big ones if you catch my drift. she has never had an out of state experience so this would fulfill your fantasy of playing with a 223 and it would fulfill her fantasy of shooting lots of critters, she loves multiples.
Sportingly
Cracker
 
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