? for ccw guys, to shoot or not to shoot

A good friend was in a store when it was robbed. Keep in mind that if you take any action of any kind the other people in the store will turn on you in a NY minute if it is not a story book ending. Best thing is to let the robber take the money and leave if he will. If harm to people you assume are innocent and not part of the robbery appears imamate it changes things. These things happen fast and the situation changes by the moment. I am not ready to start shooting to protect anything material. My friend caused the robber to leave without taking money or hurting anyone. He still felt the wrath of the clerk and other shoppers for putting them in danger. You would have thought it was him who was the big threat. If a shot is fired it better be to save your own life or family or friends who you know. The person standing beside you may be the other robber. It would be the best outcome if you could just go home. Don't think the other people in the store will thank you for taking action. Odds are they are liberals and think you are the one who should not have a gun. The poor robber is just doing what he is doing because he is at economic disadvantage.
 
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: Infidel 762As long as he is holding a gun with hostile intent towards me or any other citizen, the first time he turns his back or focuses his attention else where I would begin shooting… I would continue to shoot until he is no longer a threat… I do not have a duty to wait until he shoots at me first...

“I was in fear for my life. I was forced to defend myself. I will make no further statements without an attorney.”

Forced to defend yourself? You shot him in the back, he wasn't pointing the gun at you. Some slick talking attorney is gonna get you in front of a jury after he has portrayed his severely injured or maybe deceased client as a good young man, just down on his luck, society has stacked the deck against him and limited his opportunities for education and success, struggling to make a living for his young family (picture six stair stepped kids well coached with big wet eyes and sniffling noses sitting first row) with no intention of hurting anyone (are you a mind reader?) being gunned down by you the wildly dangerous zealot gunslinger (race will play a role if it can be raised in anyway whatsoever).

I hesitate to enter into this discussion. I feel I know exactly what you are trying to say and why but there are a lot of things to consider and not the least is your ability to articulate why you did what you did. Because that statement is going to be shredded word by word in law offices for months afterward. Folks... you better be sure of yourself.

Yes, I was hesitant to join this thread as well.. I am not over zealous... I pray I am never put in this situation... If I am forced into this situation, the key word is "hostile intent"... If I am in a store and someone comes in waving a gun, I assume he is prepared to use it...if it happens fast and he is running out the door, that's one thing... I am not shooting someone in the back running away nor chasing them... I guess if you are ever in an armed robbery and not in fear for your life, you are braver than me... I should have toned it down a bit and added "I feel I am not currently able to simply walk away". Or being "held against my will until the robber says; you can go about by business now"...


A lot of people get a ccw and don't think about situations in which they should and should not use it... I know after such an altercation there is to be nothing positive to come from the experience... Anything you say can and will be twisted and manipulated... And yes there is a decision to be made when adrenaline and fear is at a high.. The wrong decision can end you up in prison, but even in this liberal utopia of a nonviolent country and the times we are living in.. It is not uncommon to leave no witnesses... Some are even taken to the back walk in cooler and shot in the head, this is America...

I am scared of being taken to the back walkin cooler and shot in the head... I need an attorney...
 
You have to keep in mind that every situation presents it's own individual set of factors....We've had a series of robberies of a certain chain of local grocery stores, just before closing time and it's not uncommon for me to be making trips late at night to get things that Momma Turtle decides she just has to have for the next day...

While I am almost always armed, I would be hard pressed to take any action unless the subject was creating a clear and immediatly present danger to me, or anyone in the store...As long as it's a simple get the money and run....Let them go...Even if herded into a back room, I would cooperate until such point that it was clear that there was about to be an injury inflicted by the suspect...

I can show all the fear that a normal robbery suspect usually needs to feel in control of a situation and normally, that is enough to allay the possibility of a hostage situation...which if that occurs, and someone is injured as a result, I don't want to be the one that is on the receiving end of the finger pointing when it comes to law suit time...Once an overt deadly act is committed by the suspect, aside from the robbery itself, then many things can change as to the outcome...

While I've shot various forms of firearm competitions for years, I am not willing to bet on someone else's life that I can successfully out draw a person that is already pointing a firearm, or has one at the ready...It's a different matter if he/she is already pulling the trigger...
 
On a related side note, next Thursday and Friday I have 16 hours of force on force simunitions training scheduled. It's the final two days of advanced active shooter instructor training for certification. I love the force on force stuff, it's fantastic.
 
Bottom line for me is that I agree with infidel, maybe it's the military use of force in me. " hostile act, or hostile intent " are grounds for deadly force. Pointing a weapon at anyone else is clearly both. Shoot him in the back if he is facing someone else with a weapon pointed at them
 
Originally Posted By: reaper4Bottom line for me is that I agree with infidel, maybe it's the military use of force in me. " hostile act, or hostile intent " are grounds for deadly force. Pointing a weapon at anyone else is clearly both. Shoot him in the back if he is facing someone else with a weapon pointed at them

Easy for you to say...
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Yup. Easy for me to do too if another citizen is in danger of severe bodily harm or death. That's just the right thing to do. I really don't care what they say. Would most of you really NOT save a life for fear of legal consequences?
 
Depends. Some scenarios I would risk everything. Some, nothing. Even little old ladies are sometimes the devil incarnate. You can't tell much by looking. The risk a person takes by shooting, even if it comes out as a good shoot, amounts to putting the home your children live in , their education, even the food in their mouth at risk. I have put my life at risk for others I did not know many times. I don't recall so much as thank you but very few times. Now days I am not willing to sell all so cheap.
 
My suggestion would be to get a firearm and get some training. Be as confident and proficient with the firearm and knowing the laws as possible. I've taught scenario-based use of force training for a bit and it is a really good tool to see how you react in stressful situation of something like that is available to you.

I always try putting myself in others shoes in real life situations and try to figure out how I'd try and handle it. There's no right or wrong answer as what to do in any given situation.

Some things I think of..

If I have my family with me my priority would be to get them away from the threat and protect them.

I'd probably intervene in a situation if I felt I had the advantage and/or I felt someone would be hurt or killed if I didn't act. There's a lot of factors that would go into the situation for you to get a real feel for everything.

I wouldn't be concerned about other patron's opinions though, I have pretty good understanding of the law and their opinion would be the last thing on my mind if it came down to drawing my gun.

As you can see, everyone has different opinion and most likely a different course of action if put in the same situation.
 
The other patrons opinions come into play when you go to court. The rest of your life may depend on what they say. Odds are very great you will wind up in court. If everything is proved justified on your part in the end and you don't have to pay anyone but your lawyer it will still be quite a sum. A battle field, your home, and the 7-11 are vastly differing circumstances.
 
Originally Posted By: PredburnerIf you need to ask this question then you should probably comply and hope for the best......

that's not the reason I started this, I got into a discussion with 2 buddies about this and it got me wondering how many would open fire on the guy.

as said in a previous post I have LE firearms training, use of force, etc and when it comes down to it unless you open fire on someone or I have 200% thought your going to kill someone the gun stays hidden and I do what you have to say.

when I worked armored money transport I always told new guys not your money, not worth your life. they want it give it to them. they get the drop on you and have a gun pointed at you or someone else they will kill you or the other person before you can touch your holstered gun so don't even try. now if I get fired upon then game changes..

I had no intent of this being im going to stop some pizza robbers the situation hit close for me and was just thinking out loud with you guys. I have to say im amazed at how many would shoot.
 
I have to assume someone presenting a deadly weapon is willing to use it. If he opens fire its too late. Rule number one of gunfights..... Never let your opponent get the first shot
 
Rule #1 in a gunfight is to always have a weapon. Closely followed by rule #2, don't get shot. Rule #3, always cheat and always win.
 
Tough choice. I have thought about it a lot. My choice is me and mine come first. After that, it depends how I feel about the situation at the given moment.
Here in Vegas we had a boyfriend/girlfriend go full retard not to long ago. They started by walking into a cici's pizza and killed 2 police officers who were eating. They then walked across the street to a Walmart and randomly started shooting people. A man with a ccw permit started following the man and eventually engaged him and shooting him. The ccw holder didn't know of his accomplice who had followed him and then killed him. The female then either killed herself or was killed by police. Engaging the bad guy may have saved many lives. But it cost him his and left his family without a loved one. Talking bravado on the net or with friends is one thing. Its another to look that kind of danger in the face and risk your life for people you don't have any association with. That's not to say you dont care about them or wish them harm. Tough personal choice for sure.
 
I'm not surprised, I think it's natural to want to defend themselves and others. Most of the time it works because the criminals don't expect people to be armed.

I used to work for an armored car company briefly between the military and my current job. The guys there were shocked that I said I wouldn't hesitate to give up the money if someone tried robbing us. Real interesting group of people I worked with in that job. One of the employees almost got away with stealing $8+ million after he got away clean stealing 50k
 
Originally Posted By: Redleg84
I always try putting myself in others shoes in real life situations and try to figure out how I'd try and handle it. There's no right or wrong answer as what to do in any given situation.


I like to try and see it from the other side's point of view as well... If you think about it from the safety behind a keyboard, it is obvious... Someone who decides to do something like this lives by an entirely different mindset than normal society... There are people who will take you life for less than $20, some will cut your throat for a hit of crack, young, up and coming gang members will take your life for a higher status in their gang and some people are just evil...

If I where looking at it from their point of view I would take note that even if it is a simple robbery with no plans of killing anyone the outcome can turn far more grim... Say you and your accomplice go in with an unloaded gun "so no one gets hurt"... The clerk or someone in the store shoots your partner dead and you run out the door, only to get arrested hours later... Oklahoma, along with the majority of other states have the felony murder law... If someone gets killed in the commission of a felony you are committing, you are responsible for their death and you get a 2nd degree murder charge... But hey, at least you made it out alive..

In such a situation the chemicals in your own brain will alter you thought process and perceptions as well... If you make a decision to be an armed citizen you need to be certain or just leave your firearm in the car before you go into the store...

The prospect of me being herded or taken to a back room of a store by an armed man leaves me with a crystal clear decision of what I would do... It does not include me giving away my tactical advantage of a concealed weapon by drawing while he has a gun pointed at me... Even being told to lay on the floor as he stands at the register, my decision does not include warning shots or verbal commands...

I would never create such a situation in my community, but if found in one it would not be by choice... In such a situation you are the victim until you take action, make sure you fear for your life by them still posturing hostel intent... You never what what they are capable of and what they plan to do next... I am doing everything I can to go home alive...
 
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