Electoral College

Originally Posted By: IAyoteHNTROriginally Posted By: prairiefireQuite conceivable that Trump could win convincingly with the popular vote and lose via the electoral college. Time to dump the electoral college IMO.

Better keep it as is if you want Republicans to have a chance.
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6 out of the last 7 election's popular vote have been won by Democrats. If you went on popular vote, then Gore would have beaten Bush and Hillary would now be your next President. Food for thought.
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But the self interests of either party is not the issue, what's right is.
 
Originally Posted By: DesertRamHere's my simple solution.

The Congress shall elect the president based on the popular vote of their states. Each senator shall cast his/her vote in accordance with the popular vote of the entire state. Each representative shall cast his/her vote in accordance with the popular vote of his/her Congressional district.

A simple modification of the Electoral College system that does away with the flawed "winner take all" approach that is currently in place in 48 states.

That negates a close vote, and negates the wider margin states in a way that negates wide spreads that would otherwise prevail. This needs to be about the will of all the people, The majority will of the people is not that hard to understand, and there is no need to hurt people's head with ways to come up with what's fair.

One person one vote, 50+% is the will of the people.
 
Our country has never been a direct democracy, nor was it ever intended to be such. Its hard enough to get people to turn out and vote every 2 or 4 years for the big elections. Imagine if you had to ask everyone to go to the polls every time a decision was made


we live in a Federal Republic where in fact the states DO pick the president, through the electoral college, which is driven by the popular vote in that state. Just like we elect our house and senate folks to make governing decisions for us. ALthough originally the senate was selected by the state representatives too - thats why the House of representatives was (and still is) called 'the peoples house'. It allowed for people to have a say, and states to have a say in how our federal govt was run. Unfortunately the 17th amendment unbalanced that and took away the states rights in our govt in this manner and now both body's of our congress are elected directly by the people.

A direct democracy where 1 person = 1 vote we never have been.

it was setup so that ideological sects (like progressivism/socialism/tyranny in general) cannot take hold in a few populated area's and dictate the direction of the entire country.

http://www.usconstitution.net/constfaq_q76.html


take a look at this map - its a county by county result of the 2016 election. This is why the electoral college is in place. It prevents what represents a small percentage of the country (geographically speaking) from overshadowing the rest of the population.

map-results.jpg


can you tell me if the colors on this map was reversed, but the margin of the vote result was the same - ie: hillary won the electoral but trump won the popular by ~200k - votes you'd be saying the same thing?


if that were the case i'm pretty sure that hillary supporters from coast to coast would be praising how well the electoral college worked and what a great system it was.

take some time, read the federalist papers, or sign up for the hillsdale college constitution & govt courses online (they're free). You may actually learn something you either dont know, or were incorrectly informed on and help you understand how and why the system works the way it does.
 
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Quote:if that were the case i'm pretty sure that hillary supporters from coast to coast would be praising how well the electoral college worked and what a great system it was....Just like they did in 2008 and 2012...

In a true Democracy, the simple majority rules, in a Republic form of government there is a check and balance to prevent that...
 
If you look at the 2008 map you see almost the exact same thing. A very small percentage of the landmass directly overshadowing the country, exactly what you're saying its supposed to prevent. It doesn't work that way, at all. Win new york city, and you win the state. Win 1 city and you win every vote the state has. If you live in certain states you have 3 choices. 1. Vote with whatever party the state votes for and win. Vote for the other party and lose, or do what a majority of america does, and watch the Simpsons. What you can't do is affectvyour states vote or join up with those you agree with but don't happen to live next to you and actually possibly sway things.
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndyIf you look at the 2008 map you see almost the exact same thing. A very small percentage of the landmass directly overshadowing the country, exactly what you're saying its supposed to prevent. It doesn't work that way, at all. Win new york city, and you win the state. Win 1 city and you win every vote the state has. If you live in certain states you have 3 choices. 1. Vote with whatever party the state votes for and win. Vote for the other party and lose, or do what a majority of america does, and watch the Simpsons. What you can't do is affectvyour states vote or join up with those you agree with but don't happen to live next to you and actually possibly sway things.


That's correct. The fact that clinton won the popular vote in our system is irrelevant. Throw out the electoral college system and re-vote and see what happens. She may still have the majority and may not, IDK. But it will be far more votes I'd almost guarantee that. People want their vote to pick the winner, not the loser. So if I'm a republican in NY or CA, I don't even bother because it doesn't matter. If I'm a dem in (most states) I wouldn't bother because it won't matter. But if every vote counted nationally every one would feel like they have an equal voice.
 
Everyone does have a voice in our current system. Look at the 1988 election...

If everyone voted, especially in CA and NY, then the outcomes would be different. Less than 1/2 of eligible voters cast their ballot this cycle. I know there are plenty of people put side of LA and NYC that simply do not vote, and thereby through ommition, they are not heard. Again, less than 1/2 of CA voted...I'd wager a good portion of the ones who didn't had the "It's Cali, I don't have a voice." mentality and did nothing.

I thought the same about my state (PA) and look what happened there! And Wisconsin, Ohio, NC, Florida. Everyone's voice can be heard, if only they speak up.
 
so, with some snowflakes calling for someone, anyone, to assassinate both trump & pence -there's that tolerant inclusiveness again- it raised a question.

I don't think this has ever happened before, but let's play what if?

we've had an election & we now have a president-elect & his veep but the electoral college has not yet met & voted to make it official.
 
There is no reason to what if it. Until the college votes are counted nothing matters. There is exactly nothing preventing ever elector from casting their vote for hillary and she is now the president.


Prison? Yep, the electors can get hammered, but it does'nt change their vote. And some states have no penalty for being a faithless elector. Only their vote matters, the rest, just a poll when you get to the nitty gritty.
 
It's my understanding congress has to approve the electoral vote so even if they go rogue it wouldn't get through. Imagine the riots if all of that occurs.
 
I think theres been 4 presidential elections where the candidate with the popular vote lost the election . The winner of the electoral college ,in all 4 cases, was a Republican ..
 
Originally Posted By: HunterBear71Congress can scrutinize the electoral votes and even throw them out.

Yes and no. They (both houses together) can file an objection, they can't just throw them out. After that both houses have to agree to discard a vote, which has never happened. Possible, yes, but not probable.


Fear of actual democracy and the belief the common man can't be trusted led to the creation of the college in the first place. The framers said only specific people should be able trusted to vote.

I can't say i dont agree with that a little more every time i see another riot on the news. But since those things tend to congregate in the same population centers having the electors is just another step to the exact same conclusion.
 
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/11/hillary_wins_the_popular_vote__not_.html


American Thinker




November 11, 2016
Hillary wins the popular vote – not
By Steve Feinstein
Okay, let’s address this “Hillary might win the popular vote, isn’t that Electoral College situation just awful” thing head on.

No, it’s not awful. It’s great, and it protects the importance of your vote. It’s also uniquely American and demonstrates yet again the once-in-creation brilliance of the Founding Fathers.

First of all, she’s probably not going to win the actual number of votes cast. She may win the number of votes counted, but not the votes cast.

States don’t count their absentee ballots unless the number of outstanding absentee ballots is larger than the state margin of difference. If there is a margin of 1,000 votes counted and there are 1,300 absentee ballots outstanding, then the state tabulates those. If the number of outstanding absentee ballots wouldn’t influence the election results, then the absentee ballots aren’t counted.

Who votes by absentee ballot? Students overseas, the military, businesspeople on trips, etc. The historical breakout for absentee ballots is about 67-33% Republican. In 2000, when Al Gore “won” the popular vote nationally by 500,000 votes and the liberal media screamed bloody murder, there were 2 million absentee ballots in California alone. A 67-33 breakout of those yields a 1.33- to 0.667-million Republican vote advantage, so Bush would have gotten a 667,000-vote margin from California’s uncounted absentee ballots alone! So much for Gore’s 500,000 popular vote “victory.” (That was the headline on the N.Y. Times, and it was the lead story on NBC Nightly News, right? No? You’re kidding.)

Getting back to the “win the popular vote/lose the Electoral College” scenario: Thank G-d we have that, or else California and N.Y. would determine every election. Every time.

I’ll draw a boxing analogy for you. In boxing, the scoring for a completed fight (one where there’s no knockout, but instead goes the full distance) is done either on a Rounds basis or a Points basis (agreed upon in advance). Let’s say it’s a 10-round fight, scored on the Rounds basis. The judges decide which boxer wins each round, and the fight is scored 7-3 or 6-4 or 8-2.

The other way a fight can be scored is on the Points basis. Under this system, a fighter is given 10 points for winning the round, and the loser gets 1-9 points, depending on how close or badly he loses it.

Let’s say Jones has two really big rounds where he knocks Jackson down a few times and really has him in trouble, winning those two rounds by scores of 10-6. But Jones wins only two other rounds, and those by very close 10-9 margins.

Jackson wins the 6 other rounds, all by 10-9 margins. No question that Jackson won those six rounds, but they weren’t overly dramatic. Just solid wins.

So Jackson wins by rounds, 6-4.

Jones wins by points, 94-90.

California and N.Y. are the 10-6 rounds. Those two states will unduly and disproportionately affect the election – every time. The other big-population states are all 10-9 rounds. That means that the vast majority of 48 states and their populations will be subject to the whim and desire of just two states. If those two states have similar demographics and voting preferences at any particular point in time (which they do now), then those two states call the shots for the entire country.

But the Electoral College brilliantly smooths out the variances in the voting proclivities among states and regions. Farmers in the middle of the country and importers and exporters on the shore get roughly equal say, as do Madison Ave. execs and factory workers in Tennessee.

Shortcomings? Sure. The E.C. can make an R vote meaningless in a very few heavily D states or vice versa. But without the Electoral College, the country’s entire population is subject to the disproportionate voting preferences of the few most populous states.
 
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Quote:Who votes by absentee ballot? Students overseas, the military, businesspeople on trips, etc. The historical breakout for absentee ballots is about 67-33% Republican. In 2000, when Al Gore “won” the popular vote nationally by 500,000 votes and the liberal media screamed bloody murder, there were 2 million absentee ballots in California alone. A 67-33 breakout of those yields a 1.33- to 0.667-million Republican vote advantage, so Bush would have gotten a 667,000-vote margin from California’s uncounted absentee ballots alone! So much for Gore’s 500,000 popular vote “victory.” (That was the headline on the N.Y. Times, and it was the lead story on NBC Nightly News, right? No? You’re kidding.)


I like the theory, and really hate to bring this up, but what am I missing here? What happened to the 67% or 1,340,000 votes?

ETA: If you count the 33%-667,000 votes, you have to also count the 67% or 1,340,000 .

Regards,
hm
 
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Originally Posted By: IAyoteHNTROriginally Posted By: prairiefireQuite conceivable that Trump could win convincingly with the popular vote and lose via the electoral college. Time to dump the electoral college IMO.

Better keep it as is if you want Republicans to have a chance.
wink.gif


6 out of the last 7 election's popular vote have been won by Democrats. If you went on popular vote, then Gore would have beaten Bush and Hillary would now be your next President. Food for thought.
glare.gif


Yeah, food for thought is fine but it doesn't change the definition of what a popular vote is and what an electoral takes away from the will of the people.
 
Originally Posted By: jumprightinithttp://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/11/hillary_wins_the_popular_vote__not_.html


American Thinker




November 11, 2016
Hillary wins the popular vote – not
By Steve Feinstein
Okay, let’s address this “Hillary might win the popular vote, isn’t that Electoral College situation just awful” thing head on.

No, it’s not awful. It’s great, and it protects the importance of your vote. It’s also uniquely American and demonstrates yet again the once-in-creation brilliance of the Founding Fathers.

First of all, she’s probably not going to win the actual number of votes cast. She may win the number of votes counted, but not the votes cast.

States don’t count their absentee ballots unless the number of outstanding absentee ballots is larger than the state margin of difference. If there is a margin of 1,000 votes counted and there are 1,300 absentee ballots outstanding, then the state tabulates those. If the number of outstanding absentee ballots wouldn’t influence the election results, then the absentee ballots aren’t counted.

Who votes by absentee ballot? Students overseas, the military, businesspeople on trips, etc. The historical breakout for absentee ballots is about 67-33% Republican. In 2000, when Al Gore “won” the popular vote nationally by 500,000 votes and the liberal media screamed bloody murder, there were 2 million absentee ballots in California alone. A 67-33 breakout of those yields a 1.33- to 0.667-million Republican vote advantage, so Bush would have gotten a 667,000-vote margin from California’s uncounted absentee ballots alone! So much for Gore’s 500,000 popular vote “victory.” (That was the headline on the N.Y. Times, and it was the lead story on NBC Nightly News, right? No? You’re kidding.)

Getting back to the “win the popular vote/lose the Electoral College” scenario: Thank G-d we have that, or else California and N.Y. would determine every election. Every time.

I’ll draw a boxing analogy for you. In boxing, the scoring for a completed fight (one where there’s no knockout, but instead goes the full distance) is done either on a Rounds basis or a Points basis (agreed upon in advance). Let’s say it’s a 10-round fight, scored on the Rounds basis. The judges decide which boxer wins each round, and the fight is scored 7-3 or 6-4 or 8-2.

The other way a fight can be scored is on the Points basis. Under this system, a fighter is given 10 points for winning the round, and the loser gets 1-9 points, depending on how close or badly he loses it.

Let’s say Jones has two really big rounds where he knocks Jackson down a few times and really has him in trouble, winning those two rounds by scores of 10-6. But Jones wins only two other rounds, and those by very close 10-9 margins.

Jackson wins the 6 other rounds, all by 10-9 margins. No question that Jackson won those six rounds, but they weren’t overly dramatic. Just solid wins.

So Jackson wins by rounds, 6-4.

Jones wins by points, 94-90.

California and N.Y. are the 10-6 rounds. Those two states will unduly and disproportionately affect the election – every time. The other big-population states are all 10-9 rounds. That means that the vast majority of 48 states and their populations will be subject to the whim and desire of just two states. If those two states have similar demographics and voting preferences at any particular point in time (which they do now), then those two states call the shots for the entire country.

But the Electoral College brilliantly smooths out the variances in the voting proclivities among states and regions. Farmers in the middle of the country and importers and exporters on the shore get roughly equal say, as do Madison Ave. execs and factory workers in Tennessee.

Shortcomings? Sure. The E.C. can make an R vote meaningless in a very few heavily D states or vice versa. But without the Electoral College, the country’s entire population is subject to the disproportionate voting preferences of the few most populous states.

Who cares what state has a bigger population if the country is based on a one person one vote popular election? If every single person in the country is equal, and their equality is not to be rendered of less value than those who live in a lesser populated states, all of the millions in a larger state have the same exact say as anyone else.

The original founding fathers thought that people who didn't own property should have more say than non property owning people of lesser substance. My point is they had some idiotic ideas, they did not get it all right. The electoral was set up because they did not trust people to be well enough informed to make such important decisions such as who was to be the president.
 
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