Democrats (Teachers) Behaving Badly

Originally Posted By: NM LeonI missed this Marxist/Leninist screed:

Quote:If government needs more money, don't take it from the middleclass who cannot afford the loss. Take it from the wealthy - they can afford it easily.

Just who the heck do you think is paying your wages and benefits jeffo? IT'S THE MIDDLE CLASS TAXPAYER!! (and the average person who you are sucking off isn't doing nearly as well you are).


First, I AM a middle class taxpayer. Second, in Wisconsin, the average teacher salary is 6% less than the average private sector employee.
 
Originally Posted By: NM LeonQuote:Have you ever been involved in collective bargaining in the public sphere?

Thankfully no, I've always been able to negotiate for myself one on one with whoever I've worked for, and have too much pride to feed at the public trough. On the other side I would rather eat coyote 5 times a week than run for elected office as a union funded candidate.

Have YOU ever been involved in collective bargaining in the public sphere? Are you one of the union bigwig "negotiators"?

If so, perhaps you could educate us. Did you negotiate with government officials or not? Were the wages and benefits you were negotiating for paid for with tax dollars or not?

As a union official (or just being awake) I'd assume you were (and are) aware of the extent that your union spent your union dues in political contributions to elect the folks you were "negotiating" with. Kind of made the atmosphere and outcome of those "negotiations" pretty friendly didn't it?




Quote:Are you speaking from experience here or just spewing diatribe?

Are you speaking from your experience as a union boss/negotiator, or just frothing at the mouth?


Seriously, you might check out "Labor Relations in Education (International"), "Collective Bargaining in State and Local Government", and of course the real classic, "Collective Bargaining as an Instrument of Social Change" paying special attention to chapter 6 "Teachers and
Transformational Bargaining".



Robert Reich...is a professor at the University of California at Berkeley.

Which about says it all. Still it's better than the pure Marxist crap you spouted in the last debate I guess.

At the center of this virtuous circle were unions. In 1955, more than a third of working Americans belonged to one.

Do you really want to go down this road jeffo? I can provide compelling evidence that the reasons for the destruction of the "virtuous circle" are grounded in the increased size of government and the corresponding deterioration of the quality of government education.


Rich teachers? No, but most do pretty darned well compared to the people who pay for their wages and benefits (the taxpayers).




Who pays your wages? Who pays the guy who owns the shoe store or the auto repair shop? Mostly middle-class taxpayers! We're going in circles here.
 
Originally Posted By: waterweasleOriginally Posted By: jeffoOriginally Posted By: NM LeonQuote:Because that's the path you chose.

No, that's the path that a guy elected with union funding "negotiated" for us non-government union taxpayers. What's wrong with this picture?

If you're talking about Walker the teachers unions did not endorse him. That's why he's retaliating.


Quote:It will be interesting. Wait and see what this governor has in store for the private sector. Those who are singing his praises now will be crying foul when he unveils his new budget.

Those of us in the private sector understand the economic reality that we are BROKE!!

Lot's of rich teachers, are there?

What we decry is that in addition to the pain we are going to endure to fix the situation, there are greedy government unions who are in large part the cause of our troubles wanting us non-government taxpayers to continue to carry them on our backs.

The voters finally woke up and spoke last NOV, saying..."NO MORE!!"




Quote:It's called the 1st amendment. For someone so gung-ho on the constitution and American rights I'm surprised you take exception to this.

The 1st amendment doesn't give you the right to abrogate your contract and walk off the job. It dang sure doesn't give you the right to drag my child to your protest.

The penalty for illegally walking off a job is/should be... you get fired. Then you can exercise your 1st amendment rights on the capitol steps to your hearts content.


No one illegally walked off his/her job.

I think (hope) that you government union folks are about to come to the realization that you have lived off of the backs of the rest of us too long and that your collective greed has killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

So, essentially, you're saying that teachers don't earn their pay? Is your problem with teachers or with unions? You've never really been clear on that.


heard on the radio that wisconsin schools are like 44th out of 50.......so yeah they arent earning thier pay




44th in what?
 
while I'm not a big fan of unions in general. I see a clear & sharp distinction between private sector & public sector. When we're talking about jobs that are paid for by our tax dollars I don't think unions should be allowed, period.

Private sector, if people want to unionize & fight it out with the companies, that's their problem. When they use the force of govt to gouge it out of us via taxation, it's our problem.
 
i think most of you here know what i think of the public indoctrination system, so i wont go there.
anyhow, wisconsin, #44. great job jeffo!

http://education.usnews.rankingsandrevie...tate-statistics


America's Best High Schools: State-by-State Statistics
Posted December 9, 2009



America's Best High Schools

View more America's Best High Schools tables:
Rank State Number of High Schools* Number eligible for full analysis Awarded bronze or better Bronze or better medal (% of total) Awarded silver or gold Silver or gold (% of total) Awarded Gold Gold (% of total)
1 Connecticut 193 143 16 8.3% 12 6.2% 0 0.0%
2 Massachusetts 345 253 37 10.7% 21 6.1% 2 0.6%
3 California 1839 893 170 9.2% 110 6.0% 20 1.1%
4 New Jersey 397 299 41 10.3% 23 5.8% 5 1.3%
5 New York 1041 676 122 11.7% 53 5.1% 23 2.2%
6 Illinois 742 296 70 9.4% 37 5.0% 3 0.4%
7 Vermont 63 39 8 12.7% 3 4.8% 0 0.0%
8 Washington 453 211 51 11.3% 21 4.6% 4 0.9%
9 Maine 115 77 10 8.7% 5 4.3% 1 0.9%
9 Maryland** 231 173 15 6.5% 10 4.3% 0 0.0%
11 Florida 608 367 43 7.1% 24 3.9% 10 1.6%
12 New Hampshire** 78 59 8 10.3% 3 3.8% 0 0.0%
13 Rhode Island 54 21 4 7.4% 2 3.7% 0 0.0%
14 Texas 1425 669 122 8.6% 50 3.5% 11 0.8%
15 Colorado 338 146 32 9.5% 11 3.3% 1 0.3%
16 Nevada 94 54 5 5.3% 3 3.2% 0 0.0%
16 Oregon 283 100 33 11.7% 9 3.2% 0 0.0%
18 Kentucky 258 148 32 12.4% 8 3.1% 0 0.0%
19 North Carolina 440 314 44 10.0% 13 3.0% 2 0.5%
20 Georgia 380 288 29 7.6% 11 2.9% 1 0.3%
21 Delaware 37 28 4 10.8% 1 2.7% 1 2.7%
21 District of Columbia 37 12 4 10.8% 1 2.7% 0 0.0%
23 Virginia 320 221 36 11.3% 8 2.5% 2 0.6%
23 Arizona** 400 128 36 9.0% 10 2.5% 2 0.5%
25 Pennsylvania 676 356 69 10.2% 16 2.4% 1 0.1%
26 Michigan 864 324 75 8.7% 20 2.3% 1 0.1%
27 Utah 181 71 15 8.3% 4 2.2% 0 0.0%
27 Indiana** 366 235 30 8.2% 8 2.2% 1 0.3%
27 Alabama 372 101 45 12.1% 8 2.2% 1 0.3%
30 Louisiana** 316 57 31 9.8% 6 1.9% 1 0.3%
31 Minnesota 604 155 39 6.5% 11 1.8% 0 0.0%
32 Wyoming**# 63 15 8 12.7% 1 1.6% 0 0.0%
33 South Carolina 200 137 22 11.0% 3 1.5% 1 0.5%
34 New Mexico 138 53 21 15.2% 2 1.4% 0 0.0%
34 Missouri 489 100 41 8.4% 7 1.4% 1 0.2%
36 Tennessee# 320 138 27 8.4% 4 1.3% 2 0.6%
37 Idaho# 165 42 19 11.5% 2 1.2% 1 0.6%
38 Alaska 97 25 7 7.2% 1 1.0% 0 0.0%
39 Ohio** 818 356 46 5.6% 7 0.9% 1 0.1%
40 West Virginia# 121 55 19 15.7% 1 0.8% 0 0.0%
40 Iowa 378 71 47 12.4% 3 0.8% 0 0.0%
42 South Dakota 136 20 13 9.6% 1 0.7% 0 0.0%
42 Arkansas** 274 165 38 13.9% 2 0.7% 0 0.0%
44 Wisconsin 500 240 50 10.0% 3 0.6% 0 0.0%
45 Mississippi 245 66 40 16.3% 1 0.4% 0 0.0%
46 Kansas 318 62 43 13.5% 1 0.3% 1 0.3%
47 Hawaii** 48 35 8 16.7% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
47 North Dakota 108 12 13 12.0% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
47 Montana# 114 29 12 10.5% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
Not ranked Oklahoma*** 411 n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a.
Not ranked Nebraska*** 250 n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a.
Totals 18743 8535 1750 9.3 561 3.0% 100 0.5%
 
Originally Posted By: jeffoOriginally Posted By: Stu FarishI have 2 of them living next door to me. Rich, no. Doing well, yes.

Unfortunately for you, reality is sitting out here.


Reality is, you get what you pay for. You really want better public education? Get the government the [beeep] out of it! And dont forget the Unions to.
 
Quote:Who pays your wages? Who pays the guy who owns the shoe store or the auto repair shop? Mostly middle-class taxpayers! We're going in circles here.

No jeffo, we are not, listen very closely.

In the non-government worker's case, the "middle class taxpayers" who are the customers that ultimately pay our wages, CHOOSE TO SPEND THEIR MONEY at the companies we work for.

In your government worker case, every penny you get is COERCED BY THREAT OF VIOLENCE AND IMPRISONMENT from the taxpayer.

See the difference? Free choice of the consumer vs coerced by government.







Quote:in Wisconsin, the average teacher salary is 6% less than the average private sector employee.



In Wisconsin the average full-time state employee earns over $70,000 in pay and benefits, about $15,000 more than the average private-sector employee (the teachers on strike in Madison average 100k in wages plus benefits).

Government workers point out that when you adjust for education, they actually make slightly less (6% less in WI).

Even discounting the obvious that the largest group of state workers are education majors, government workers in general have way more than their fair share of "soft" degrees. A history, basket weaving, or education major IS NOT the equivelent of a computer engineering degree, and they should not be compared.

In the case of teachers it also ignores the disparity of hours worked per year. Very few jobs require as few hours work per year as does teaching.




Quote:Reality is, you get what you pay for.

Not even close when it comes to government education. We've been taxed more and more while quality has nosedived.




Quote:You really want better public education? Get the government the [beeep] out of it!

AT LAST!!! Congratulations jeffo, you've come home at last.
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ill take this one step further. US vs other countries. we used to be the best, no longer, despite doubling education spending since 1971. gee, whats wrong with this picture? maybe the unions and govt?
sorry for all the negative stories, but i couldnt find one that said that the US is getting any better.


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/education-rankings-by-country/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/12/your-child-left-behind/8310/


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730.html
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: NM LeonQuote:Who pays your wages? Who pays the guy who owns the shoe store or the auto repair shop? Mostly middle-class taxpayers! We're going in circles here.

No jeffo, we are not, listen very closely.

In the non-government worker's case, the "middle class taxpayers" who are the customers that ultimately pay our wages, CHOOSE TO SPEND THEIR MONEY at the companies we work for.

In your government worker case, every penny you get is COERCED BY THREAT OF VIOLENCE AND IMPRISONMENT from the taxpayer.

See the difference? Free choice of the consumer vs coerced by government.







Quote:in Wisconsin, the average teacher salary is 6% less than the average private sector employee.



In Wisconsin the average full-time state employee earns over $70,000 in pay and benefits, about $15,000 more than the average private-sector employee (the teachers on strike in Madison average 100k in wages plus benefits).

Government workers point out that when you adjust for education, they actually make slightly less (6% less in WI).

Even discounting the obvious that the largest group of state workers are education majors, government workers in general have way more than their fair share of "soft" degrees. A history, basket weaving, or education major IS NOT the equivelent of a computer engineering degree, and they should not be compared.

In the case of teachers it also ignores the disparity of hours worked per year. Very few jobs require as few hours work per year as does teaching.



Quote:Reality is, you get what you pay for.

Not even close when it comes to government education. We've been taxed more and more while quality has nosedived.




Quote:You really want better public education? Get the government the [beeep] out of it!

AT LAST!!! Congratulations jeffo, you've come home at last.
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That one statement alone proves to me that you really DON'T know the first thing about being a teacher. Keep to your internet stats, I'll keep to the real world. Oh, and sorry for all your cronies here who stand around slapping each other on the butt. You're still a hero to them.
 
Quote:In the case of teachers it also ignores the disparity of hours worked per year. Very few jobs require as few hours work per year as does teaching.


Quote:That one statement alone proves to me that you really DON'T know the first thing about being a teacher. Keep to your internet stats, I'll keep to the real world. Oh, and sorry for all your cronies here who stand around slapping each other on the butt. You're still a hero to them.


Well...you CAN get the statistics online, starting with The US Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, but if you want to spend the money you can get their studies in print as well.

They say that nationwide, the median work-year for public school teachers is 180 vs 250 overall (2008). I'll leave it to you as to whether or not you want to try the online or print method, but I challenge you to find a profession with fewer days worked per year than teaching (there aren't any).

I admit that I don't know what your contract in WI says though. Do you guys not get summer, Christmas, and spring breaks?

That IS the "real world" jeffo, your ACT and NEA propaganda is fantasy.
 
Originally Posted By: NM LeonQuote:In the case of teachers it also ignores the disparity of hours worked per year. Very few jobs require as few hours work per year as does teaching.


Quote:That one statement alone proves to me that you really DON'T know the first thing about being a teacher. Keep to your internet stats, I'll keep to the real world. Oh, and sorry for all your cronies here who stand around slapping each other on the butt. You're still a hero to them.


Well...you CAN get the statistics online, starting with The US Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, but if you want to spend the money you can get their studies in print as well.

They say that nationwide, the median work-year for public school teachers is 180 vs 250 overall (2008). I'll leave it to you as to whether or not you want to try the online or print method, but I challenge you to find a profession with fewer days worked per year than teaching (there aren't any).

I admit that I don't know what your contract in WI says though. Do you guys not get summer, Christmas, and spring breaks?

That IS the "real world" jeffo, your ACT and NEA propaganda is fantasy.







Would you count the 10+ hours a week the average teacher spends at home correcting papers, doing lesson plans, etc. as work? I would. When the whistle blows I don't hang up my hard hat and meet my buddies for a cold one. I take the work home. Do I have to? Is it in my contract? NO! Why, then, do I do it. You figure it out.
 
jeffo MOST non menial jobs require "extra" work outside of the official work day if you want to do your job well. Ten hrs a week is not unusual at all and it certainly is not limited to teachers.

The difference is that the rest of us do it all year, sometimes with 2 weeks vacation, sometimes 1 week, and sometimes no paid vacation at all. Some work a 5 day week, some a 6 day week, and even longer.

While I was in Iraq, I worked minimum 12 hrs a day 7 days a week (many 106 hr weeks where I was paid for 84), was eligible for 120hrs paid vacation, paid 100% of my health care, and had zero retirement benefits, not even a 401k.

My total pay and benefits package was about the same size as what I imagine yours is (if you are at the Madison average), except (for your side) only certifications were required (no degree), and (for my side) I worked way more than twice as many hours as you do and regularly had people shooting at me and trying to blow me up.

THAT'S "reality".

Another reality showing the difference between government union employees and the rest of us who pay your wages? If any of us walked off the job to protest, we'd be fired immediately...period.

Don't expect a whole lot of sympathy on this one.


Quote:44th in what

Ranked 44th in the quality of it's high schools as measured by US News and World Report.

Here's another measure of how good y'all are doing.

2009pisa.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: sweatybettyi think most of you here know what i think of the public indoctrination system, so i wont go there.
anyhow, wisconsin, #44. great job jeffo!

http://education.usnews.rankingsandrevie...tate-statistics


America's Best High Schools: State-by-State Statistics
Posted December 9, 2009



America's Best High Schools






ACT Composite Scores by State

2010 scores for states testing 50 percent or more of their high school graduates*

Top Ten States

State Rank Average
Composite Score % of Graduates
Tested

Minnesota 1 22.9 70
Iowa 2 22.2 60
Wisconsin 3 22.1 69
Nebraska 4 22.1 73
Montana 5 22.0 58
Kansas 6 22.0 75
South Dakota 7 21.8 79
Utah 8 21.8 71
Ohio 9 21.8 66
Idaho 10 21.8 60

Neighboring States

State Rank Average
Composite Score % of Graduates
Tested
North Dakota 12 21.5 81
Illinois 13 20.7 100







View more America's Best High Schools tables:
Rank State Number of High Schools* Number eligible for full analysis Awarded bronze or better Bronze or better medal (% of total) Awarded silver or gold Silver or gold (% of total) Awarded Gold Gold (% of total)
1 Connecticut 193 143 16 8.3% 12 6.2% 0 0.0%
2 Massachusetts 345 253 37 10.7% 21 6.1% 2 0.6%
3 California 1839 893 170 9.2% 110 6.0% 20 1.1%
4 New Jersey 397 299 41 10.3% 23 5.8% 5 1.3%
5 New York 1041 676 122 11.7% 53 5.1% 23 2.2%
6 Illinois 742 296 70 9.4% 37 5.0% 3 0.4%
7 Vermont 63 39 8 12.7% 3 4.8% 0 0.0%
8 Washington 453 211 51 11.3% 21 4.6% 4 0.9%
9 Maine 115 77 10 8.7% 5 4.3% 1 0.9%
9 Maryland** 231 173 15 6.5% 10 4.3% 0 0.0%
11 Florida 608 367 43 7.1% 24 3.9% 10 1.6%
12 New Hampshire** 78 59 8 10.3% 3 3.8% 0 0.0%
13 Rhode Island 54 21 4 7.4% 2 3.7% 0 0.0%
14 Texas 1425 669 122 8.6% 50 3.5% 11 0.8%
15 Colorado 338 146 32 9.5% 11 3.3% 1 0.3%
16 Nevada 94 54 5 5.3% 3 3.2% 0 0.0%
16 Oregon 283 100 33 11.7% 9 3.2% 0 0.0%
18 Kentucky 258 148 32 12.4% 8 3.1% 0 0.0%
19 North Carolina 440 314 44 10.0% 13 3.0% 2 0.5%
20 Georgia 380 288 29 7.6% 11 2.9% 1 0.3%
21 Delaware 37 28 4 10.8% 1 2.7% 1 2.7%
21 District of Columbia 37 12 4 10.8% 1 2.7% 0 0.0%
23 Virginia 320 221 36 11.3% 8 2.5% 2 0.6%
23 Arizona** 400 128 36 9.0% 10 2.5% 2 0.5%
25 Pennsylvania 676 356 69 10.2% 16 2.4% 1 0.1%
26 Michigan 864 324 75 8.7% 20 2.3% 1 0.1%
27 Utah 181 71 15 8.3% 4 2.2% 0 0.0%
27 Indiana** 366 235 30 8.2% 8 2.2% 1 0.3%
27 Alabama 372 101 45 12.1% 8 2.2% 1 0.3%
30 Louisiana** 316 57 31 9.8% 6 1.9% 1 0.3%
31 Minnesota 604 155 39 6.5% 11 1.8% 0 0.0%
32 Wyoming**# 63 15 8 12.7% 1 1.6% 0 0.0%
33 South Carolina 200 137 22 11.0% 3 1.5% 1 0.5%
34 New Mexico 138 53 21 15.2% 2 1.4% 0 0.0%
34 Missouri 489 100 41 8.4% 7 1.4% 1 0.2%
36 Tennessee# 320 138 27 8.4% 4 1.3% 2 0.6%
37 Idaho# 165 42 19 11.5% 2 1.2% 1 0.6%
38 Alaska 97 25 7 7.2% 1 1.0% 0 0.0%
39 Ohio** 818 356 46 5.6% 7 0.9% 1 0.1%
40 West Virginia# 121 55 19 15.7% 1 0.8% 0 0.0%
40 Iowa 378 71 47 12.4% 3 0.8% 0 0.0%
42 South Dakota 136 20 13 9.6% 1 0.7% 0 0.0%
42 Arkansas** 274 165 38 13.9% 2 0.7% 0 0.0%
44 Wisconsin 500 240 50 10.0% 3 0.6% 0 0.0%
45 Mississippi 245 66 40 16.3% 1 0.4% 0 0.0%
46 Kansas 318 62 43 13.5% 1 0.3% 1 0.3%
47 Hawaii** 48 35 8 16.7% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
47 North Dakota 108 12 13 12.0% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
47 Montana# 114 29 12 10.5% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
Not ranked Oklahoma*** 411 n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a.
Not ranked Nebraska*** 250 n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a. n.a.
Totals 18743 8535 1750 9.3 561 3.0% 100 0.5%
 
Originally Posted By: NM Leonjeffo MOST non menial jobs require "extra" work outside of the official work day if you want to do your job well. Ten hrs a week is not unusual at all and it certainly is not limited to teachers.

The difference is that the rest of us do it all year, sometimes with 2 weeks vacation, sometimes 1 week, and sometimes no paid vacation at all. Some work a 5 day week, some a 6 day week, and even longer.

While I was in Iraq, I worked minimum 12 hrs a day 7 days a week (many 106 hr weeks where I was paid for 84), was eligible for 120hrs paid vacation, paid 100% of my health care, and had zero retirement benefits, not even a 401k.

My total pay and benefits package was about the same size as what I imagine yours is (if you are at the Madison average), except (for your side) only certifications were required (no degree), and (for my side) I worked way more than twice as many hours as you do and regularly had people shooting at me and trying to blow me up.

THAT'S "reality".

Another reality showing the difference between government union employees and the rest of us who pay your wages? If any of us walked off the job to protest, we'd be fired immediately...period.

Don't expect a whole lot of sympathy on this one.


Quote:44th in what

Ranked 44th in the quality of it's high schools as measured by US News and World Report.

Here's another measure of how good y'all are doing.

2009pisa.jpg






I'm sorry you're not able to exercise your 1st amendment rights. You should be p!ssed about that.
 
Quote:I'm sorry you're not able to exercise your 1st amendment rights. You should be p!ssed about that.

You miss the point jeffo, I have no problem with those protesters in Madison exercising their 1st amendment right.

I DO have a problem when they fraudulently expect us (taxpayers) to PAY THEM for doing it. (As any other employer would have a problem paying for a walkout and would fire those that did it.)

I'd fire them, every one, and I'd press criminal fraud charges against the ones that got the fake doctors excuses.

I'd also prosecute any of those from the first day who dragged minor children to the protests without parental permission.

Your 1st amendment rights do NOT give you the right to break the law, or the right to be paid while you are exercising them.
 
Originally Posted By: NM LeonQuote:I'm sorry you're not able to exercise your 1st amendment rights. You should be p!ssed about that.

You miss the point jeffo, I have no problem with those protesters in Madison exercising their 1st amendment right.

I DO have a problem when they fraudulently expect us (taxpayers) to PAY THEM for doing it. (As any other employer would have a problem paying for a walkout and would fire those that did it.)

I'd fire them, every one, and I'd press criminal fraud charges against the ones that got the fake doctors excuses.

I'd also prosecute any of those from the first day who dragged minor children to the protests without parental permission.
Your 1st amendment rights do NOT give you the right to break the law, or the right to be paid while you are exercising them.



Nice choice of words. Wrong, but nice. Fake doctors' excuses? That's a new one. FOX news should interview you. Interesting and delusional. But well-spoken.
 
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