Big Black Cats (Panthers)

Originally Posted By: CalCoyote Boomy,

Well, you called my bluff... I was just trying for a little comic relief to laugh a little.

My opinion really? I trust my brother-in-law completely. He lives down Florence Mississippi and spends a LOT of time in the woods. About 6-7 years back he says he saw one while in his tree stand deer hunting. Another family member saw it another time. I have known both of these guys for over 30 years and they are not given to hype or tall tales. They don't drink, smoke funny little cigarettes, or anything else. If they saw it. I have no reason to doubt. I know that is not proof, but it is enough for me.

Did not intend to make a personal attack. Just stir the pot a little...


btw: as for my belief in God... I am a licensed minister and pastor a church. When I am not preaching, or working, I am in the woods.

Accepted.


Now, I personally don't know that there are any large black cats roaming the woods.
(actual wild black panthers, escaped pet black panthers, or mole covered mountain lions)
My only conceren is the vilification of those who believe they have seen one........


BTW- CalCoyote I was an MK down in Mexico for 11yrs.
 
i've been good trapper just workin out of town so i don't get here as much.
its bad luck cuz if you tell anyone the whole world thinks your crazy.
 
Okay, so large black cats exist and lots of reputable people have seen them, some of them multiple times in the same general area.

How come there are no specimens? How come trappers don't trap them, people don't run 'em over on the road, deer hunters don't shoot 'em, they don't run thru suburbia, and houndsmen don't tree at least ONE? Not to mention that there's not a single known specimen in a museum anywhere in the United States, and no taxidermist anywhere has stepped up with a picture or mount of such a critter. Given that regular ol' tan cats have appeared in all the above roles, frequently!, we should have at least ONE black cat.

So, how come?

P.S. Thanks to this thread I just got a smiley face next to my screen name! Yeah!
 
the smiley shows you are online
its always been there.
die hard II may have been the change when you hit 1000 posts.
mine should be changed to PM junkyIV
 
Originally Posted By: BoomyFound this on an educational site. Notice the Gulf Coast area.
jaguar_range.gif


Ya don't all you people here that think black panthers exist. Relize you are just crazy look at this map and you will see the panthers range follows the u.s. mexican border. They would not be able to get a vista to cross the border. Even though there is lots of swamp and forest for them to hide in if they did move past the u.s. border.

Its funny I was watching a show the other day on the animal planet showing wild pig ranges on a map like this. Didn't even show Missouri as having pigs. That is funny When I was stationed in Ft Leonard wood in the 80's there was hogs all over the base. Hmmm we all know there is hogs up there.
 
Jaguars have been found recently in AZ. They have been spotted in Texas as well. So, lines drawn on maps are just that...lines on maps.

That said, There's never been a documented case of a "Black Cat" either a cougar or a jaguar in the U.S.

It doesn't mean that a dark jaguar hasn't been here, it's just never been killed or photographed.

The tales of our fathers and grandfathers persist though.
 
Originally Posted By: Wa_Coyote_HunterYa don't all you people here that think black panthers exist. Relize you are just crazy look at this map and you will see the panthers range follows the u.s. mexican border.

We understand that. However, the normal incidence of melanism in jaguars is about 6%, with a FEW isolated populations hitting up to 50%. That means that out of 100 jaguars, 6 will be black, the rest spotted. Let's be generous and call it 10%- one in 10. So, for every 1 black cat, I would expect to see 9 spotted jaguars. Warner Glenn has treed two jags in Arizona, and another was trapped by researchers (and later died) and it was BIG news. Meanwhile, we have, what 15-20 black cats running around in Oklahoma, Missouri, and even all the way up to PA? There should be approximately 150-200 spotted cats, in the same area, during the same time period. Maybe all the black cats are migrating north and that's why we see them?

Unfortunately, according to Dinets and Polecha [bold is mine]:
Quote:Although the popular literature and folklore (Carmony 1995) is replete with references to melanistic jaguars (Panthera onca) and this coloration pattern has been documented in Central and South America (Meyer 1994, Brown and Lopez 2002), no scientific documentation has been provided to date to confirm the existence of a native melanistic jaguar in the northern part of their range (Brown and Lopez 2002). Place names such as the ancient city of Ek Balam, Yucatan, Mexico ("black jaguar" in Mayan language) and Cueva del Tigre Negro, Chiapas, Mexico ("cave of the black tiger or jaguar" in Spanish language) elude to the past occurrences of melanistic jaguars in southern Mexico. However, Brown and Lopez (2002) unequivocally state: "With the exception of captive animals, which are commonly bred in zoos, black or melanistic jaguars have never been documented north of Mexico's Isthmus of Tehuantepec." This paper presents the first documentation of a free-ranging melanistic jaguar in the North American portion of Mexico.
Original paper (You will find scientific citations in the original paper- this is not "just someone on the internet".)

They had a sighting, put out a trail cam in an area with tracks and ta-da! A picture! Yet, how come with all the trail cams in the deer woods in OK, TX, NM, AZ, CO, MO, LA, etc, we don't have a decent photo of the oft-sighted black cat?

Shoot...skip the black ones for now... where are the SPOTTED cats? We should be getting 9 spotted cats for every black one. If the spotted cats were turning up regularly, I could believe that the black ones were there, too. But they're not.

I think I've already made this point about 4-5 pages ago.
smile.gif


Once again- how about a jaguarundi? Is there any possibility that's what people are seeing? They'd be rare in the US, but they're ALL dark.


 
Well I have been debating on wether to give my opinion on this one and I think all I have to say is to discredit "all" of those who have claims of seeing a large black cat would be be a little prejudiced to an extent, yet on the same token were is "any" evidence of this animal. It seems to me that there are way too many people seeing a large black cat to completely eliminate the possibilities of an animal like this existing. My opinion is people truly are seeing "a big black cat". Nothing eliminates the possiblitiy that all of these sighting are actually a melanistic leapord or jaguar either. The question being debated here is not wether people are actually seeing something in my opinion but wether what they are actualy seeing is nothing more than a melanistic leapord or an actual black lion. Here are a few pics of what some of these people "could" possibly be seeing. As for anyone wanting to volontere to be the first person to actualy pull the trigger on such a creature to put this issue to rest, they are going to have to get in line behind me! http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&am...ved=0CBEQsAQwAA
 
I saw a black jaguar just today.
Was just west of Kansas City.
Flew around me doing about 90mph.
Little old man driving it.
Lic # was something something CAT.
Kansas plates.

I'm only guessing at how fast it was going as
I was doing 80 and it went by pretty quick.
 
Shooting one would be the last thing I'd do after the stink in AZ about the captured jaguar dying while in captivity.

I think you'd have to seek political asylum in another country if you harmed one.
 
Quote:Maybe all the black cats are migrating north and that's why we see them?

There ya go. The black fur was making them too hot in the south, so they are moving up north.
lol.gif
 
I have not read this entire thread, i don't have time.
I would like to say though, i personally saw a black feline of some kind near Pomerelle Ski Resort in ID in 1991 cross the hwy right in front of the car. My mother was scared out of her whitts. It was chasing a yearling mule deer fawn. The fawn went up the hill on the left side of the road, the cat stopped for a few seconds at the edge of the road and then took off after the fawn. IDFG has record of our sighting and told us that it was 1 of 2 things. A color phase lion or a puma. There were records of 13 puma being in captivity(zoos and private individuals)in the state and they said it was most likely a color phase(freak of nature) lion. There had not been any reports of any of the puma getting loose or released. Take it for what it's worth but i saw this animal with my own 2 eyes as well as my mom and my best friend.
Had it been a normal looking lion it still would have been bigger than any i have seen my entire life. For those who do not know where this ski resort is, it is south east of Twin Falls.
 
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There were two cougars killed in Oklahoma by game wardens last year,1 in the pan handle and the other at Poteau in far eastern oklahoma.I'm sure there were others but these are two that I know of for sure and no, neither one was black.All I can say is what I and my cousin saw crossing the road in front of us at twenty feet.It was a Black cat about 100 pounds and looked like a cougar.I have personaly seen 3 other cougars, one in the river bottoms south of Roland ,Oklahoma and 2 near Wilburton Oklahoma.There was also one spotted last year at Redland Oklahoma which two families watched for over an hour.None of which were black.
 
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I wish someone would come up with something new to argue about, this one's getting old, but it was fun for awhile.

I know, maybe we can discuss whether or not Rudolph exist, and if he does, is his nose really RED? Anythings possible right!
 
Originally Posted By: foxsmasherIDFG has record of our sighting and told us that it was 1 of 2 things. A color phase lion or a puma. There were records of 13 puma being in captivity(zoos and private individuals)in the state and they said it was most likely a color phase(freak of nature) lion.

"Lion" = African lion? Panthera leo?
 
Originally Posted By: NM_HighPlainsOriginally Posted By: foxsmasherIDFG has record of our sighting and told us that it was 1 of 2 things. A color phase lion or a puma. There were records of 13 puma being in captivity(zoos and private individuals)in the state and they said it was most likely a color phase(freak of nature) lion.

"Lion" = African lion? Panthera leo?




longtail, mountain lion, cougar
I have the habit of calling them lions.
 
Originally Posted By: foxsmasherOriginally Posted By: NM_HighPlainsOriginally Posted By: foxsmasherIDFG has record of our sighting and told us that it was 1 of 2 things. A color phase lion or a puma.

longtail, mountain lion, cougar
I have the habit of calling them lions.

The way I'm reading this is that IDFG said it was EITHER a color phase lion OR a puma. Meaning there are two different kind of cats here. But, a "puma" IS a mountain lion or cougar: Puma concolor. If it's a "color phase lion" then it's also a "color phase puma" and that's also a "color phase cougar". So, I'm just confused as to why they would say it's EITHER a lion OR a puma.

I'm curious now-

How big was the fawn?

How big was the cat compared to the fawn?

How come the cat couldn't catch the fawn?
 
Originally Posted By: NM_HighPlainsHow come the cat couldn't catch the fawn?

It probably would of,

BUT

Originally Posted By: foxsmasher the cat stopped for a few seconds at the edge of the road and then took off after the fawn.

it had to stop and look both ways to make sure it was safe to cross the road.
This was a smart cat..
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: NM_HighPlainsOriginally Posted By: foxsmasherOriginally Posted By: NM_HighPlainsOriginally Posted By: foxsmasherIDFG has record of our sighting and told us that it was 1 of 2 things. A color phase lion or a puma.

longtail, mountain lion, cougar
I have the habit of calling them lions.

The way I'm reading this is that IDFG said it was EITHER a color phase lion OR a puma. Meaning there are two different kind of cats here. But, a "puma" IS a mountain lion or cougar: Puma concolor. If it's a "color phase lion" then it's also a "color phase puma" and that's also a "color phase cougar". So, I'm just confused as to why they would say it's EITHER a lion OR a puma.

I'm curious now-

How big was the fawn?

How big was the cat compared to the fawn?

How come the cat couldn't catch the fawn?

1. The guy on the phone said "lion or puma". Whatever he meant is up for interpretation. Maybe he meant jaguar, i don't exactly know.
2. It was a yearling fawn, maybe 30 to 40#.
3. The cat was 3 or 4 times the size of the fawn easy. If memory serves, it was the same height as our chevy Cavalier's hood at its back.
4. The cat stopped to look at the car. I am quite sure it caught the fawn shortly after it went up the hill. It was probably 40 feet to the top of it and it closed the distance very fast.
 
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